RE: Supports who think they are inherently expected not to pick a tank

Mannny·Apr 8, 2017·5 votes·864 views

I understand that you support players may not always want to pick a tank, however, you are the support.

If we have a team of top jungle mid and adc and you pick and get mad when we have no tank and go to you for an explanation, you need to rethink your ideals. Your job is not only to shield and heal the ADC, you are to help the team as a whole as well. I am well aware you make less gold than the other roles however that is not a valid excuse as most support tank items are cheaper to compensate such as and which all provide frontline tankiness for the team. We aren't looking for a 400 armor 350 mr maokai we are just looking for a frontline for the team. It's better than the 1 heal that you perform on the ADC before you get one shot.

PS: I'm referring to the supports that knowingly pick squishy champions despite the clear observation of a squishy full damage team.

67 Comments

GinoSoldierApr 8, 201710 votes

Excuse me?

How is it one player's job to compensate for 4 people's worth of bad planning? Yes, picking a tank support is more likely to help.

No, it won't be enough with the power budget granted to supports.

Until supports get equal power budget with the rest of the team, stop expecting them to make up for your mistakes, they literally can't.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

I can't excuse you for not reading the post.

Because clearly you read jack shit and passed over me explaining how nobody is entitled to pick one style of champion over another, you should play for the team, and if your team needs a tank you should pick a tank. It is better than picking a squishy supp.

GinoSoldierApr 8, 20176 votes

No, see the thing is; the Jayce top shouldn't even consider picking Jayce top if he didn't know beforehand that his jungle was going Graves. The term 'teamplay' doesn't limit itself to the last out of 5 players picking for the team. It means EVERYONE on the team should communicate in pre-game chat and agree on some sort of half-viable team comp. Blaming the 5th pick support for picking what they want to play when clearly everyone else did is plainly unfair.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

Nobody is blaming anyone here. If you are last pick you are supposed to pick for the team, whether you are support or not.

Yes, it's a lot better if everyone did it but that's not going to happen in every game. If everyone is squishy because nobody wanted to pick team-oriented champions and you are last pick and you pick Soraka and wonder why everyone looks at you and your reason is "Supports don't tank!" then that is a huge issue.

The last pick is the easiest to pick because everything is handed out for you, you know who is playing what and you can pick for the team. That is what is expected. I do it, mostly everyone does it, why can't you?

GinoSoldierApr 8, 20177 votes

We can't excuse this kind of issue on the point of 'it won't happen every game'. It should. We should enforce it. If ADC is last pick and the team has a Vayne top, a Sejuani Jungle, a Yasuo Mid and a Braum Support, I expect the last pick 'ADC' to pick an AP champion that is at least theoretically viable botlane. Plain and simple as that.

But they won't. They'll pick ADC because that's what they want and not what the team needs. But if the entire team picks what they want, why expect one person to pick for all of their shortcomings?

We're really agreeing here. People 'should' play what the team requires. People don't. People pick what they 'want'. I simply won't blame one player for doing the same as 4 others, regardless of role, position and pick order. Maybe I shouldn't and that's on me. But as far as i'm concerned, if 80% of players in a team get to play whatever the hell they want, then maybe the other 20% also deserve the same, whatever the outcome.

Samely, If the 4 first people make up their team poorly, they can't look at the fifth and say 'it's your fault'. No matter what he picks. This is a team game. Everyone gets equal shares of blame from this kind of weakness.

KrigjerApr 9, 20173 votes

How is it one player's job to compensate for 4 people's worth of bad planning?

This thread is nothing but another 'Supports need to be my bitch cause I said so!' rant.

Also, this is what 'pick intent declare' was meant for- to prevent bad team comps. Which, again, it is NOT the support's job to compensate for your refusal to switch.

LauchmelderApr 9, 20171 votes

Actually he has a valid point.

You see so much squishy supports bitching about "GG no tank", even when they were last pick and could have gone Ali, Braum or Leona.

KilanostApr 8, 20179 votes

Honestly, top or jungle should have picked the tank. I say this and those are the two lanes I play. The only thing I want tanky supports doing as making sure my adc doesn't die while I disrupt the enemy back line. Generally supports are under leveled and don't get as much gold as other roles so its hard for them to build enough defense to every actually be tanky.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

I literally stated that "less gold cant tank sorry haha" is an irrelevant excuse and gave my reasons why. If a tank builds item 2303 item 3190 item 3107 by the time it hits mid-late game and everyone is looking for towers that is just fine. It's not as useful as a top lane tank but it's still better than nothing.

KilanostApr 8, 20172 votes

We aren't comparing it to nothing. We're comparing it to Zyra Soraka Karma Nami Lulu .

To that affect, I would say it is generally not better than any of those in most situations.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

So you would rather have squishy damage dealing/shield and healers that will 110% die before they can do their job than have a frontline damage-taker that can also peel for the ADC and do atleast 60% of the supports you listed's jobs?

Ok.

KilanostApr 8, 20175 votes

No, i'd rather my supports just not be stupid and die while accomplishing their jobs. You can win with a tankless comp. It just turns into a game of run and gun.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

That is a lot more difficult than just having your support pick Alistar and frontline for your team.

Sure it's possible without it but it's harder. Why make it harder for yourself just because you want to play what you want? It's more difficult for you and your team so just play for the team not yourself.

KilanostApr 8, 20173 votes

Wont survive long enough. Then you've got a 4v5 with significantly less peel.

I had this convo the other day with someone on here. We essentially agreed that neither was optimal and let it go lol.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

The root of the problem is in the fact that supports make less gold + lower level so they inherently are weaker even if the items cost less.

So if someone picks a tank support it's bad because he wont survive as long as the opposing top lane tank

However picking a squishy mage support means you have to coordinate with your team and avoid opposing enemy peel which makes things hard.

It's a lose lose situation that forces teams to have only top and jg pick a tank. We can agree to disagree then lol.

chipndip1Apr 8, 20172 votes

Just pick Karma/Nami/Sona/Janna and disengage the enemy's hard engage with the same Redemption/Locket combo, your ult, and generally stronger sustain tools. Bam, better than a tank support and we didn't even try that hard.

EvilUnicornLordApr 8, 20171 votes

Those games are the worst...

KilanostApr 8, 20171 votes

You're not wrong lol.

GinoSoldierApr 8, 20171 votes

A tank support's job shouldn't be limited to buying two specific items and using them. ANY champion could do that. Ashe, Lee, Shaco... . A tank support's job should be defined by what their champion kit offers to their team and practically nothing else.

Samely, tank Supports not being 'as useful as toplane tanks' IS, but shouldn't be a thing. Having one player out of five being a weakling isn't healthy for the game and has been one of League's ongoing plagues since launch.

EvilUnicornLordApr 8, 20171 votes

His point is that, sure, if top and jungle went full AD/AP and the support went tank but couldn't suffice thanks to budget, it would be the toplaner and jungler's fault, but if the support went with a squishy support despite their team having no tank locked in, the support would also be to blame since a half-build tank is better than no tank at all.

KilanostApr 8, 20172 votes

This is exactly the opposite of what I've been saying. Being tanky isn't really something you can do half way with items, budget, or XP. Yet a support tank would be forced to take a hit on all 3 of those. He may as well just int mid lane every 4 minutes.

God RaijinApr 8, 20172 votes

To add, unless you are like specifically playing Alistar or maybe Braum , tanks get blown the fuck up easily enough now-a-days as it is ( item 3153 item 3071 item 3135 item 3033 item 3036 ; To level and gold starve them and expect items like item 3190 item 3107 to be good enough is almost a joke.

vOmvbrawfUApr 9, 20171 votes

Tank supports are actually very tank. By your logic, supports don't get as much gold to deal meaningful damage, so they shouldn't pick damaging supports?

TTK DreadnoughtApr 8, 20175 votes

It falls upon the rest of the team also. Graves can build bruiser to help off-set it. but the jayce or the ahri could of also have been a tank or a semi-tanky champion (swain, vlad, malz, brand, come to mind for mid)

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

Graves and Jayce naturally build semi-tank. It's part of their core. I'm referring to the supports that are last pick and chose Soraka or any other squishy support when a better option would be Braum or something but want to stick to their guns and use the stupid excuse "supports are not supposed to tank its not my job". I'm completely fine if you want to play your main but if you want to play Soraka just to play Soraka when there are better options then I have issues.

TTK DreadnoughtApr 8, 20171 votes

Suppose they can't or dont enjoy playing those types of champs?

A person who mains healers/enchanters may not have the mindset/skillset to play a vanguard. I play tanks and tanky champions but if we need a strong mage, you cant just expect me to pick ryze or similar champs like orianna even though im not comfortable enough to play them in rank yet.

BigBellBruteApr 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Graves and Jayce naturally build semi-tank. It's part of their core. I'm referring to the supports that are last pick and chose Soraka or any other squishy support when a better option would be or something but want to stick to their guns and use the stupid excuse "supports are not supposed to tank its not my job". I'm completely fine if you want to play your main but if you want to play Soraka just to play Soraka when there are better options then I have issues.

You want me to pick Braum when the entire rest of the team save Ahri is AD and we're laning into Varus Malzahar? Fat chance of that.

RequiemsfireApr 8, 20175 votes

It also falls onto the toplaner and jungler to pick a tanky laner.

MannnyApr 8, 20172 votes

No it's not. Nobody is inherently assigned to pick anything. If you are last pick you should pick for the team. If your team is squishy pick a tank, whether you are support or not it does not matter.

RequiemsfireApr 8, 20177 votes

Well I'm sorry if you wanted to get your favorite pick and then blame the support for not locking in a tank when you shoehorned them into being the tank. There's no reason as to why the jungle or toplane couldn't pick beefy champions. Hell, I think the support would've been better off running Karma over any tanky champion with your comp anyways.

Your logic, toplane locks in squishy carry champion, jungle locks in squishy carry champion, support locks in squishy support healer, supports fault for not going tank. Let's be real, the blame cannot fall to a single person just because you want to use the excuse the comp was already made or some rubbish like that.

News flash, if you need a tank, don't lock in graves, lock in amumu.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

Not saying it's supports fault. I am saying supports aren't entitled NOT to pick a tank.

RequiemsfireApr 8, 20173 votes

You are pretty much blaming the support with your shitpost and are you sure you understand what the word entitled actually means? There's no other way to take this other than you are effectively saying that the support didn't compliment the composition that you were going for and that it's they're fault for not locking in a tank.

DemainaNyxApr 8, 20175 votes

You do realize that some people aren't comfortable with different play styles right?

I may be a god Soraka that is running around fights at 10hp, dodging multiple skill shots, and keeping the team topped off vs an absolute ass at Alistar who dies instantly every fight because I don't know how/when to engage. Sitting there and telling me I should play a champion that I know I'm bad at just means the game is that much harder for the "carries" that couldn't be bothered to pick a decent team comp and are relying on me to make up the difference from a position that is going to be under leveled and underfed for 90% of the game.

I play a ton of Brand support. Know why? Because so many of my teams lack 1) AP damage, 2) ranged waveclear, 3) CC, or 4) all of the above. Riven top, Lee Sin jungle, Zed mid, and Draven ADC. Yep, just brillant team composition right there. I had games where I'm the ADC with a Quinn top, Graves Jungle, Zed mid, and Leona support. I picked Ziggs. I will generally try to make up for whatever ass team comp my team picks, but I pick champions I'm good at, not ones I don't understand.

If I have to tank, I'll pick Blitz because I can stand in my team and bring enemies to us, which is what makes sense to me. All the champs I'm good at are poke champs. I don't play assassins or melee champs because their play style is completely counter intuitive to me.

I literally don't know how to play Leona cause I always die as her since no one understands what to do when I stun someone. As Thresh I'll hook and flay and do everything to protect and make picks but that doesn't make my team click the damned lantern when I position to save them. That 5 man flash pulverize may look awesome, but it does nothing if my fricken Yasuo top who spams "pick knock up champs" doesn't actually use his ult when I do it.

If you a decent team comp, then fix it yourself. Don't expect the other positions to make up for it because normally they won't.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

I said if its ur main or ur good at a champ go on ahead but if ur just picking a squishy supp because u want to and you think its everyone elses job to pick a tank when clearly nobody did than thats on you bud.

DemainaNyxApr 8, 20174 votes

I reread your post and you never said that. You basically said it's the supports job to make a semi decent team comp from the choices the rest of the team made, regardless of the fact you may not want to play what the team needs.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I said if its ur main or ur good at a champ go on ahead but if ur just picking a squishy supp because u want to and you think its everyone elses job to pick a tank when clearly nobody did than thats on you bud.

And Ill say the same to the guy playing Yasuo Top when we have no tank. Funny how that works.

GinoSoldierApr 8, 20171 votes

As Leona, since i almost always end up engaging instead of peeling, I just build straight up tank, none of those half-assed support items that don't actually give you enough power to survive. Eye of the Equinox, Warmog's, Visage, Thornmail, Iceborn, Boots. Way, waaay higher survival chance/active time than the typical Redemption/Locket items you'd have the right to build on a much more defensive champion like Braum.

Some days i hardly even get why Leona's a Support, since she's much better at sticking it to the enemy team than helping out allies. Change her passive into one she can use alone, up her damage bases OR her scalings just a bit and you got a 100% viable toplaner, maybe even jungle.

Champion SkinApr 8, 20171 votes

I don't think Riot ever want Leona to be a good jungler since then she would probably be too good (since for her to be a decent jungler she would need enough damage to clear the jungle and if she had that with the CC she has then her ganks would also be quite powerful making her potentially OP though she does lack mobility to get around in the jungle)

Why Warmogs? It just doesn't seem that good to me especially since you also get a decent amount of just HP from Eye of the Equinox

GinoSoldierApr 8, 20171 votes

Leona becoming a jungler is something that can be made simple via +%damage to monsters on her Q/W. It'd let her clear without affecting essentially anything else. I could see her being able to E to large monsters too, for mobility, but that might be too drastic a buff.

I don't buy Warmogs for health, i buy it for the regen. Couple seconds out of combat and you're good for round 2.

DarkRitualApr 8, 20174 votes

I'm not picking a tank if I see a Malz or Brand picked that might be support. If I'm last pick, I'll just play Janna or Lulu instead of actually being worthless in lane. If I'm not first pick, either jungle or top needs to bite the bullet and be the tank.

ZT XperimentorApr 8, 20173 votes

Just because you're the carry doesn't make you a leader.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dHlJB0WB,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-04-08T07:17:04.460+0000)

Just because you're the carry doesn't make you a leader.

in fact, being the support makes you more the leader since you have the freedom and utility to pay attention to the game flow more.

ZT XperimentorApr 8, 20172 votes

I've seen & played in both situations, being the lead & following it; I wouldn't say one is necessarily better than the other as it can rely on the lane match up. Obviously the dynamic of playing with friends should sort itself out; the problem is more of a difference in attitude I'd say. Some see the support as their personal watch dog, while others see them as the team utilizer.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20172 votes

In general, my attitude when i play support is that of a Pokemon trainer while the team are my pokemon. While they have the damage, I set up and create opportunities and give directions while also some assistance.

ZT XperimentorApr 8, 20174 votes

An amusing analogy, but it can be frustrating when they think you don't have enough badges.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dHlJB0WB,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-08T17:04:58.885+0000)

An amusing analogy, but it can be frustrating when they think you don't have enough badges.

indeed xD

NielarkenApr 8, 20173 votes

So let me understand your logic here. If you are support and last pick you should always pick a tank if a tank is needed. So let's say the enemy support is zyra and for sake of the argument zyra counters tank supports. You would rather your bot lane be destroyed for the team to have a tank? Instead of the support picking let's say Janna to prevent bot lane from getting steam rolled.

AptestApr 8, 20171 votes

my ideals are as follows:

1 tank which is the support = bad team composition, use a caster instead. 2 tanks, one of which is the support = acceptable. full squishy multiple assassins/carry team that can't initiate and cant peel = dodge.

MannnyApr 8, 20171 votes

You're incorrect, but I wouldn't expect much from a bronze 4 player.

1 Tank can do a ton for a team if they are good, whether they are support or not. You just probably don't see good supports.

AptestApr 9, 20171 votes

Maybe I don't. I probably am not one myself.

I do have a question for you though. Say i am first or second pick. I really want to play my Bard because I've been filling in the hole in the team composition for a while now and im bored...

...the top lane is a yasuo one trick, the mid lane only plays assassins, and the jungler only plays Xin, Yi and Khazix.

What to do?