Playing the game out is no longer a good strategy

Mannny·Apr 20, 2018·33 votes·12,438 views

If you're behind, playing it out only makes it worse. Objectives are so important now that the enemy team can gain piles of gold simply by taking objectives. Now I think objective control is very important, but comebacks are almost impossible when the entire game is based around whoever can salvage a strong enough lead to take objectives easily. No longer can you sit back and farm it out, their lead will grow stronger by just them taking turrets.

41 Comments

Scary DoorApr 20, 20189 votes

Luckily games only last 20-25 minutes these days, so even if your teammates don't surrender, the game will be over soon enough.

NhifuApr 21, 20181 votes

Past couple videos I've been watching on LCK go way past 30 minutes.

Maybe this is a lower ranking issue :>

GigglesOApr 21, 20187 votes

They last 25 minutes in diamond... so its a everyone less than pros.

They want pro games to be short, so we all suffer for it.

The LexerApr 21, 20182 votes

Not necessarily. The more snowbally the game gets the safer pros player and the longer pro games last.

If they wanted pro games to be short they should encourage aggression instead of safety.

Scary DoorApr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Past couple videos I've been watching on LCK go way past 30 minutes.

Maybe this is a lower ranking issue :>

At the end of last season and in preseason of this year, games in Plat V to Plat III Elo were 20-25 minutes... sure, occasionally a game would go longer, but those were the exceptions and not the rule.

Pro games will generally last longer until there's one mistake and then the game is over. Which, to a lesser extent, is emblematic of games in Plat... you make one mistake in lane then laning phase is over, you make one mistake after that and the game is pretty much over. The game is far less forgiving. Although, sometimes even if you play well, you'll still lose because it's really about matchups and team comps.

k wìxApr 20, 20184 votes

I completely disagree with you. It varies wildly depending on several factors. You're oversimplifying a huge and complex issue. One thing I will say is that I think it needs to be harder for a single BAD player to tank a game. That's the biggest issue right now. Here is everything that affects "playing it out":

Player skill on your team.
Player skill on your best scaling champion (usually the marksman!)
Player skill on the enemy team.
Player skill on the enemies best scaling champion!
Champion Choices - Which team scales better?
Teamfight potential (Who has more CC/Tanks, usually - but which team can win a teamfight?)
Vision control and warding prowess

DestructoDaveApr 20, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UU8dvu4E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-20T23:09:18.757+0000)

I completely disagree with you. It varies wildly depending on several factors. You're oversimplifying a huge and complex issue. One thing I will say is that I think it needs to be harder for a single BAD player to tank a game. That's the biggest issue right now. Here is everything that affects "playing it out":

Player skill on your team.

Player skill on your best scaling champion (usually the marksman!)

Player skill on the enemy team.

Player skill on the enemies best scaling champion!

Champion Choices - Which team scales better?

Teamfight potential (Who has more CC/Tanks, usually - but which team can win a teamfight?)

Vision control and warding prowess

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/win-stats

Look at the win-rates for getting first objectives. 70%+. What you are talking about accounts for 25-30% wins.

k wìxApr 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/win-stats

Look at the win-rates for getting first objectives. 70%+. What you are talking about accounts for 25-30% wins.

whoever gets the first objective usually has the better players, better vision control, and better teamfight potential. That's why I think you're seeing those statistics. Maybe the problem is related to matchmaking, rather than comeback potential?

DestructoDaveApr 20, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UU8dvu4E,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T23:20:41.098+0000)

whoever gets the first objective usually has the better players, better vision control, and better teamfight potential. That's why I think you're seeing those statistics. Maybe the problem is related to matchmaking, rather than comeback potential?

How does that explain every single elo though? Its not like its just low elo. So even in diamond+ they are getting screwed by matchmaking everygame to have a 70% chance to win after 1 objective? Or is it the fact they have tweaked so much to make games end faster that snowballing is out of control?

There is very little comeback potential if you look at those numbers. I blame it on Riot constantly trying to make games faster moreso than matchmaking. Just small early leads nearly guarantee you a victory.

Snowman ArcApr 21, 20182 votes

Honestly, even in Diamond, matchmaking is so flawed so most of the time, you win or lose simply by matchmaking. It's rare that a team getting a decent lead to lose, and that's because one player on the losing team knows how to lead and what to do, has the champion to do so, which means he is better than all of them.

For example, when I play Sivir on my smurf, I know I can win all games, because I know how to stall and get my items, even before the enemy snowballing team does. I can get like 300 cs at 26 minutes, even without having any kills, while the enemy ADC gets like 180. This difference is big enough to guarantee that I can do SOMETHING about the game.

But this is a case on my smurf. It rarely happens in plat 3. As you said, if a team snowballs, it's mostly because the gold lead is big, but it's also because the enemy team is just better.

GigglesOApr 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Or is it the fact they have tweaked so much to make games end faster that snowballing is out of control?

Damage creep, now ontop of getting rewarded for killing, you get all these other bonus things for killing, and then you can kill faster, which keeps you killing faster.

All defense is gated to aftershock (or after 10 minutes with conditioning which is late midgame), no reliable hard cc on your base abilities no aftershock. Guardian is ok I guess, and grasp is "laughably defense".

The other runes in defense tree? Demolish = damage Does anyone use font of life to heal their allies for minimal amounts? Bone plating, not bad, but squishes do better with this than tanks. Chrysalis is secretly damage. Unflinching- doesn't do much with almost no reduceable cc... and SS have to be on cd... Overgrowth- oh boy 150-250 hp Then there is that support keystone that amps healing and shielding... ohhh boy the defense.

greekvandaLApr 21, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UU8dvu4E,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T23:20:41.098+0000)

whoever gets the first objective usually has the better players, better vision control, and better teamfight potential. That's why I think you're seeing those statistics. Maybe the problem is related to matchmaking, rather than comeback potential?

So when i get forced out of lane once by a gank and the jungler and toplaner take the tower in 2 minnion waves they are better players? get lost you know nothing about this game.

GigglesOApr 21, 20181 votes

Yea some of the other players want to win lane like that, cheap and dirty with one push to end the game. If they could they would have the game end at 10 minutes. The problem is, longer games are more balance able and more balanced. Riot refuses to have longer games.

PartholonianApr 22, 20181 votes

Yes. Specifically, they're better players than your jungler, who sat on his ass while this all happened.

Their team has better players than your team does not mean that you, personally, sucked (that game -- most players are also inconsistent performers from game to game, this probably includes you).

GigglesOApr 21, 20181 votes

The one that gets me is "first tower" 70+% winrate. Its literally done by first tower.

EvilMerodachApr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/win-stats

Look at the win-rates for getting first objectives. 70%+. What you are talking about accounts for 25-30% wins.

30% chance to win is better than 0%

Just quit bitching/inting and play out the ~5 minutes it takes for them to get baron and push your inhib. If they fail to do that, the enemy team sucks as much as yours, and therefor you have a decent chance of them being stupid and throwing.

https://i.imgur.com/uJfwO.gif

OniZetsu666Apr 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UU8dvu4E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-20T23:09:18.757+0000)

I completely disagree with you. It varies wildly depending on several factors. You're oversimplifying a huge and complex issue. One thing I will say is that I think it needs to be harder for a single BAD player to tank a game. That's the biggest issue right now. Here is everything that affects "playing it out":

Player skill on your team.

Player skill on your best scaling champion (usually the marksman!)

Player skill on the enemy team.

Player skill on the enemies best scaling champion!

Champion Choices - Which team scales better?

Teamfight potential (Who has more CC/Tanks, usually - but which team can win a teamfight?)

Vision control and warding prowess

Or you can just counter pick a champ smash your face on the keyboard and win lane for free. That always seems to work.

k wìxApr 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Or you can just counter pick a champ smash your face on the keyboard and win lane for free. That always seems to work.

Not to sound like a jerk, but this just shows me how little you know. What are you ranked? Silver? If you think that's how counter picking works, then you are missing some big-time fundamentals.

chipndip1Apr 20, 20183 votes

We just straight lying out here, bois.

130xApr 21, 20182 votes

Objectives only seem to help the enemy team. I can get 5 dragons and be 20 kills ahead then still die 1v1 with a 0 kill nasus

remakoroApr 21, 20182 votes

Do some dumb shit for 50 min Neglect enemy Nasus ??? Act surprised after this late game champion, that is capable of scaling non stop and was able to afk farm for 50 mins, outscaled you

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

What next? You found out that Veigar has 2k AP after you took your third baron? And he oneshot you? Happens.

GripaAviaraApr 21, 20181 votes

Both examples of bullshit game design

OMGSoAnnoyingApr 22, 20181 votes

And that is why if I've got a Veigar or Nasus on my team, the surrender vote is a bad idea.

Eventually Nasus will do Nasus things and you just melt before the wonder that is a 1500 damage Q.

Eventually Veigar breaks 1500 AP and double kills your carries with Q W, then auto-attacks your Rengar once before pressing R to murder him because he doesn't like that growly heavy breathing.

It's especially entertaining when you have them BOTH and the enemy team goes "wtf how do they do so much damage now?"

Supreme Senpai69Apr 21, 20182 votes

I think this was intentional. All of Riot's choices have been for the sake of making a game easier and easier to close out. I think they even flat out said that, too.

DestructoDaveApr 21, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Supreme Senpai69,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UU8dvu4E,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-04-21T18:10:57.424+0000)

I think this was intentional. All of Riot's choices have been for the sake of making a game easier and easier to close out. I think they even flat out said that, too.

It is. They constantly tweak it to make it easier to close out. But this doesnt make the game more fun. I mean dont the minions even do more damage on the team thats winning?

It just means that the team that gets an early lead is more than likely going to win. For a game that last 25 min+, that seems a bit much that the game is decided 5-10 minutes in.

Honestly, I dont know why. Have solo Q games ever lasted that long? It seems more geared towards pro play. Like after this split of so many teams making defenses with inhibs down, they started changing how elder/baron works to fight that. I mean who cares if a pro game lasts 40 minutes? It makes your solo Q games even shorter.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 21, 20181 votes

I don't remember but I think they changed that? If they didnt change it then yes. It goes by towers in a lane. If your team has 3 towers knocked out your minions do +3x% more damage. They push more for that lane.

I'd rather not have hour long games that only award +5 LP, but like. I wanna be able to actually play the game too lol. Some games end before we can even group.

OMGSoAnnoyingApr 22, 20181 votes

Almost. It goes by level of the players. If your team is higher in total levels, your minions push harder. If it's only one or two levels, it's not bad. When you get 5-6 levels over the other team, it starts being really noticeable. That got patched in sometime during Season 7, I forget when.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 25, 20181 votes

Oh.. that's kind of lame. Now it's just whoever gets a lead instead of whoever focused objectives.

I'm not crazy though right? It worked how I said at some point?

OMGSoAnnoyingApr 25, 20181 votes

Not that I'm aware of. And while you might have a gold lead, the experience lead will eventually even out. It's also fairly tough to sustain an average level lead of six-plus unless you have two or three people REALLY fed and farming well early game and mid game.

IainG10Apr 22, 20181 votes

My SoloQ games are actually getting longer, because with less risk of a comeback people dick around more when they're ahead, farming kills, taking Baron and then using it to fight in the jungle....

PandeonorApr 21, 20181 votes

Oh! 72,9% for winnig after first turret!

hm....

Meanwhile looking at july 2017: 72,1% april 2016: 70,3%
july 2015: 68,8% July 2014: 70%

Really. A dramatic shift!!

IN....CREDIBLE!!!! HOLY!!!!!!!!!

[zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm]

In 1 more match out of 40 it will make the difference being an early sign. So. "No longer a good strategy". I would guess a strategy wich is based on 1 match out of 40 would be a bad strategy anyway - not?

SilverjustApr 21, 20181 votes

It is a fact that the game is snowbally right now, but as you can see the impact of tower-firstblood into the snowballiness is low

PandeonorApr 21, 20181 votes

There is no "fact" aside of the fact that facts are claimed to be relevant wich are no facts at all.

Such as "Twich viewers declined" wich is wrong.

"First tower impact is much higher then before" wich is wrong.

[randomly put in 95% of all claims] ... wich are wrong

You can claim whatever you want. But if you call out wrong facts to be true wich are not true at all your opinion will not be taken serious at all. That´s it.

Impact of towers can be checked. Legth of matches can be checked. Numbers of viewers on Twich can be checked. Trend for playerbase can roughly be checked. Revenue of Riot/Tencent can roughly be checked.

.... and so on.

First checking "facts" before claiming "facts" helps a lot being credible.

TeCoolMageApr 21, 20181 votes

In plat sure because people know how to end

Gold you need to know how to actively punish mistakes

Silver and bronze they'll throw by themselves lmao

edit: downvoted by bronze players who blame meta

y0r1ckApr 21, 20182 votes

People don't know how to end in plat

TeCoolMageApr 22, 20181 votes

yeah that's prob true as well

ßluęApr 21, 20181 votes

Don't you get more gold when more minions push towards you?

Z3SleeperApr 21, 20181 votes

Alot of my ranked wins actually occur from the losing end. Ofcourse not massively losing though.

Like if the enemy ADC and support are 0/4 and 0/0/4 out of lane game's over.

Mokuto BunshiApr 21, 20181 votes

hmm, there is ONE scenario where I think you have enough pressure to come back and that's DRAGONS, specifically earth and especially Fire. As you play while behind you keep getting Gold and items, those 2 dragons magnify the rate of value/conversion for those base stats you bet, especially multipliers like Dcap and crit, in THOSE cases, I don't give up.

But that brings up a bigger problem, if your jungler is bad, there is no coming back for you...

SangreDeNocheApr 22, 20181 votes

That's exactly how I finally jumped 2 divisions after MONTHS. People one day decided to notice objectives like rift herald. I duo'd with one of them the other day and same shit. Isn't it magical how getting kills, taking towers while the enemy is gone, going to another lane, doing the same, securing rift herald, and running it down one lane as a fed team wins at 15? My allies thought so even though that's how every game should be panning out when damage is this insane. Just rofl stomp, take herald, end. Simple. As. Can. Be.