Riot: Ideas to let Zyra midlane while also letting her Support without becoming OP

5050BS·Apr 6, 2018·15 votes·1,969 views

Was looking over some posts about how Midlaners want more Plant damage and plant Suitability and how most change ideas would make Support really OP.

Then I was thinking about Kaisa and her Ability Upgrades.

What if Zyra could Pick one of Q,W,E to upgrade at say lvl 6 when she gets the first point in her Ult

Basically

Q: Thorn Spitters Gain a Bleed of 15% AP over 3

W: Upgrades Seeds to Give more Vision in Bushes last longer (+20s) and Give a small +mana/hp regen in a aura around them.

E: Upgrades Vine Lasters to Root longer (like +0.5s longer) and have more Slow (like +10%)

The Idea is Midlane would want to pick Q or E while Support would want to pick W or E

This is on top of fixing the Plant HPs issue.

45 Comments

LankPantsApr 6, 20189 votes

What if Zyra's plants just scaled decently with AP and didn't take 760 AP at 18 to double in damage, one of the lowest base:AP ratios of any spell on a mage in the game.

Professor WardApr 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}

What if Zyra's plants just scaled decently with AP and didn't take 760 AP at 18 to double in damage, one of the lowest base:AP ratios of any spell on a mage in the game.

it doesnt need to hit much harder honestly, zyra also has a q, an e, and an ult, along with being able to empower the plants.

People seem to think all of zyras damage comes from plants.

LankPantsApr 6, 20181 votes

I mean, the total AP ratio of Zyras Q/E/R is only 180% AP. That's pretty fucking bad scaling for a mage. Annie's total AP ratios before Tibbers or Molten Shield DPS for example are 230%.

Zyra needs to make up that difference with her plants. She fails to do so.

Spank the FoxApr 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, the total AP ratio of Zyras Q/E/R is only 180% AP. That's pretty fucking bad scaling for a mage. Annie's total AP ratios before Tibbers or Molten Shield DPS for example are 230%.

Zyra needs to make up that difference with her plants. She fails to do so.

How would upping her ratios make her wanna go mid?

Her issues is mediocre wave clear, mediocre zoning, zero roam potential. All upping her ratios would do is make her AP support build on par with Brand’s devasting power. Mid right now is about shove and roam, shove and invade. Zyra is bad at both.

5050BSApr 6, 20181 votes

Brand’s devasting power

And so why was Midlane Zyra gutted because of her Support power?

Zyra also has great wave clear after lvl 6. As Mid as long as my enemy laner also does not have great wave clear I roam without issue.

Her scaling and that her plants are almost useless is the issue. Once they fix her plants dying at the drop of a hat they can fix the scaling.

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

Her plants offer godly range and sustained harass if used correctly. It doesn't matter that some champs can destroy them in 1 hit. If you use them correctly they can't kill them ALL in one skill, and they extend your range up to about 1500. Adcs and aoe users don't instantly kill them by, and her ult revives them of all damage taken.

PopCorn Chick3nApr 9, 20181 votes

"use them correctly" is a terrible argument, any champion can be godlike if you use them correctly. Zyra is just a lot harder to use effectively compared to other champs because of her skill shot delay, so why choose her over someone like brand who can do what Zyra can but easier or something like Janna who can just neglect all her poke with a targeted shield.

Professor WardApr 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, the total AP ratio of Zyras Q/E/R is only 180% AP. That's pretty fucking bad scaling for a mage. Annie's total AP ratios before Tibbers or Molten Shield DPS for example are 230%.

Zyra needs to make up that difference with her plants. She fails to do so.

she sits as the highest damage support with brand 100% of the time. Shes not a mid laner.

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

She's a mid laner, support, AND a jungler.

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

I can top damage my team playing Zyra blindfolded.

She literally has the most accessible use of item 3151 because every plant attack reapplies it. So if you have 3 plants attacking a target, Liandra's will IMMEDIATELY deal 3% Max HP damage per tick. If you have a field of 6-7, much more, and on top of that, her plants deal 100% increased damage on ult, and enhanced attack speed. Her plants alone after an ult can kill a target.

hhaavviikkApr 6, 20188 votes

{quoted}

What if Zyra's plants just scaled decently with AP and didn't take 760 AP at 18 to double in damage, one of the lowest base:AP ratios of any spell on a mage in the game.

zyra's problem are her plants, the majority of her damage is in her plants but mid/late game they instantly die to anything making her damage shit, without her plants and ult she has a combined AP ratio of Q + E of 1.2, that's shit, especially when those 2 skills are also difficult to land

DW DianaApr 6, 20182 votes

Interesting idea. Zyra midlane only really lacks kill pressure though, her cs, zoning and general abusiveness in mid lane seem alright to me.

UltîmaApr 6, 20182 votes

Honestly I wish Zyra's gameplay cranked up the plants to 11 and contributed to her damage pattern more than her spells. It would give her a way more interesting playstyle than constant long range Q-harasses in lane and give her a much more distinctive playstyle compared to other mages.

5050BSApr 6, 20181 votes

You Just described Heimerdinger almost.

His spells yes do damage but direct the turrets that do a good chunk of damage.

Zyra needs to be different.

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

Her Plants are a good 40% of her damage if not more. You have no idea how many kills I've gotten because adcs cannot life leech off plants, but can off champs. Plants can literally kill an adc after you have item 3151 item 3116 . They usually can't escape the radius, take over 100 damage per plant attack, and have to deal with 3-4 plants at once, and each attack only takes 1/2 of 1 plant's HP. I've had opponents die 4-5 seconds after I have.... just because the plants just chewed away at them.

SplitgripsApr 7, 20181 votes

because her plants do so low damage.. having them at the same rate of auto attack speed makes it essential to have those two times.

item 3116 gives her the ability to run / or keep enemies within her damage hole. item 3151 fits well because of her plants being at Auto attack speed.

hell .. what would be cool is if Plant Autos reflected Zyras Attack speed.. would make her plants feel more apart of her then individuals.

PopCorn Chick3nApr 9, 20181 votes

Zyra's current Q range is actually shorter than the old one with the circle shape and also harder to land because it has lesser width. Her range is mediocre compared to other mages like Syndra, Lux, Xerath, Ziggs, vel-koz, etc.. Her kit in general doesn't synergy to one another because of their range differences, like how her Q and W have weird range and so is her ult when you root someone at max E range, you have to walk a little closer to be able to cast it. This cause her to have so many delays that the target have a lot of time to react and get out compared to someone like Syndra, who can unload her full combo if she lands a stun (a lot easier than Zyra's root).

Mig89Apr 6, 20182 votes

What if they removed or absolutely gutted her spell damage for massive buffs to plants in terms of damage and health. Make her play around her plants completely. Its a shower thought I had. Q- 1 damage and applies a small slow E- Buffed root duration but remove damage R- No damage, same knock up W- Could be the same Buff the hell out of plant ratios and maybe make abilities activate and empower instead of just activating. Maybe have her Ult extra empower it or something along those lines.

Automated RivenApr 6, 20181 votes

Plants die too fast. It's the same problem with every other minion mechanic in the game. They would either be unkillable and do way too much damage or they would be useless

Mig89Apr 7, 20181 votes

So give the plants more hp and some cc

Automated RivenApr 7, 20181 votes

You didn't read the second part of my post.

Mig89Apr 7, 20181 votes

So instead of being unkillable and dealing a ton of dmg, make them unkillable(not really) and do some cc

Automated RivenApr 7, 20181 votes

What cc would you suggest?

Mig89Apr 7, 20181 votes

adding a slow to the Q plants that spawn maybe making the E a snare on first hit or extend the snare from e by a little bit

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

They don't die too fast if you use them correctly.

IxtaliKingApr 7, 20182 votes

I like this idea. They should bring back the circular Q too.

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

Circular Q is garbage. I dont think you actually remember the size of it. It literally fit inside the current Q.

IxtaliKingApr 7, 20181 votes

I remember it well. I think it would be a lot better with the outer hitbox introduced by her rework. The rectangle is awkward, imo.

PopCorn Chick3nApr 9, 20182 votes

actually no. Circular Q is one of the reason she is able to go mid because it provided longer range and bigger width which helps mid lane Zyra to land it easier. With the rework, circular Q shape is even better because if you are not landing any abilities, plants won't prioritize the target unless you walk up to the enemy and auto them (danger zone). So what's the point of summoning plants with new Q if they are hard to land on the enemy? Before the plants AI nerf, the new Q would work because it's just a tool to summon plants and plants are just have so broken AI that they always target the enemy champ no matter what or within 350 units around the plants. With the plants AI nerf, it's a lose lose situation because if you can't land a Q, then you also lose plants damage.

AzadetheApr 10, 20181 votes

It had the exact same range and cooldowns, and plant stats.

The Circle sat inside the Rectangle.

The Priority change to auto attack targets was implemented later, after the Circle was long gone, in 7.3 (The rework was 10 months earlier in May 2016)

And you know..... you have an option to get them to attack targets!. It's called casting Q past minions closer to the champions, or hit the champion with your Q or E (if Q or E hit a champion, they prioritize it). It's an extremely strong zoning tool with an effective 1550 Range!

I've killed entire champs off nontargetted Plants, so you're REALLY wrong.

PopCorn Chick3nApr 10, 20183 votes

what are you talking about ? lol Circle sits in side the rectangle hit box? Have you ever play the old Zyra? Circle's width is almost twice as big compared to the new Q. Go play syndra because she literally has what old Zyra Q used to have. Then compared which one is easier to hit AND which one can reach to the target easier. The current Q was literally made so Zyra can summon plants out with her passive, literally have 0 synergy with her other abilities. Yup the plants that got one shotted by melee auto.

So much false information with the "effective" 1550 range. Right when Zyra got reworked, her Plants AI literally focus on the champions no matter where they are as long as they are in 575 range because I played on PBE to test her before she even get to live server, then riot removed that because she was in LCS because of it with jhin dominating the lane for first tower gold. After that, riot removed the 350 range rule where plants won't prioritize champions within 350 range around them.

Did you just say the priority change to auto attack targets was implemented later? It's been there since Zyra got released. What are you even saying. Do you play the champion without know what her kit even do?

Was about to be done but yet I saw you said "It has exact same range and cooldowns, and plant stats."

NO, this is another wrong information. Rectangle range is shorter than the circle one because it has thinner width even though they have the "same range". I'm not gonna repeat it. Plants DO NOT have the same stat after the rework. Read the patch 6.9 again because Plant Ratio got changed from 0.2 -> 0.15 with lower base.

You cannot just tell someone is wrong if you yourself don't even know if the what was changed and throwing out false information. You need to go do your homework before trying to tell someone is wrong.

5050BSApr 14, 20181 votes

I played Zyra since day one when she was on the PBE and PopCorn is right.

SplitgripsApr 7, 20182 votes

as a zyra main.

They made the plants harder to control and die easier because people dont know how to deal with them and people like me (when they worked well) knew exactly the extent of what i can do with her.

She is a control mage. So they nerfed her damage because when played correctly she WAS a monster.

She has mana issues making it difficult to get her mid. She has low damage .. making it difficult to get her mid. Her passive is unpredictable .. making it harder for her to go mid. She is slow and has zero escapes.. making it hard for her to go mid.

What changes would be nice:

her passive has the range increase with level. I feel it would be better to have a smaller area at Level 1 and grow as she levels. Her seeds should increase her movement speed in an area. so.. she can use them as a way to escape or engage. (Basically creating little areas of speed boost for her) Her to hold more seeds .. hate the gated way her W is treated. When zyra is not only a control mage, but bust as well. Also, for a free point in W at the start. like other champions that have free things like that ( Nidalee Jayce ) just feel her W is so key to anything about her because it is so important for any of her damage.

Fix her targeting of her plants like Heimerdingers .. god i loved it when the plants acted the same as his turrets.. now they are in some odd middle ground.

But doing everything i ask would end up pushing Zyra into a Jungler instead of a support.

Zyra is an interesting champion that if they give her the power / skills she deserves than people would have to counter pick against her instead of picking whatever champion they want and having a relatively easy time dealing with her.

meteorbreakerApr 14, 20182 votes

Good idea. I would like her duel potential without flowers to become fully viable again. Now, without flowers, she can not do much, in particular, in causing sufficient damage. You still need to slowly move it from the bottom line, back to your native solo lane.

Ezking15Jun 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Good idea. I would like her duel potential without flowers to become fully viable again. Now, without flowers, she can not do much, in particular, in causing sufficient damage. You still need to slowly move it from the bottom line, back to your native solo lane.

Yep, this right here on the dot, and the fact she feels somewhat clunky to play. especially running to a team fight in an area with no seeds set prior and you can only set 2 with your W but they like die instantly as they come out which automatical reduces her damage by a substantial amount.

Probs have an entire new rework for her.

meteorbreakerJun 5, 20182 votes

Yes, I saw your work and very much I said I liked it, you thought it over very interestingly and change the topic :)

Ezking15Jun 6, 20181 votes

Ahahaha thank you so much! was just about to get back to your comment on the post!!! ilyssss <3

atm reaching out to the Zyra mains on Reddit :3

5050BSApr 14, 20183 votes

Zyra should be a Midlane Mage/Jungler

She is support ONLY because she has a root. She never was to be a support. She was MADE to be a Midlane Mage

Step Sis LuxApr 6, 20181 votes

I think she is already really good on midlane and they wont overbuff her

SõnaApr 6, 20181 votes

Ability upgrade mechanism can be applied on any champ, but it will make other non-upgradeable champ hard to compete. Viktor's upgrade is his unique champion signature. if you gonna add that upgrade system for Zyra, it will just be, not fair.

Either they implement the unique skill tree for each specific champ just like DotA2's. Or give some similar mechanism like Swain's soul collect, for example, if Zyra could trigger certain mechanism like maybe make her W to feel like Corki's R, and make her plant be impactful (on her passive) Or her passive can be the charge, and it can be applied on every 30 seconds to cast upgraded version of her ability. There's a lot of ideas, but the problem is the gameplay balance of them.

Her current kits are too focusing on support's role, if only her skill (E)CC duration/aoe(Q) range can be scale-able. She could be mid champion officialy.

5050BSApr 6, 20181 votes

I had another idea that got a lot of upvotes

One of my Ideas for her passive when they talked about reworking her was to make it so she can use W to "Upgrade" Seeds and plants.

So her W gave you Seeds like now. You could place them as a seed or place them on a already planted Seed or plant and that plant would become a >Mature Plant.

Mature plants had more HPs and did more damage and had some thing extra

Q Plants had more range and attacks faster and had a bleed. E plants had a lot more HPs and had a bigger melee range AOE that slowed more

Stepping on Mature Seeds would down grade them to normal seeds

Qing or Eing a Mature Seed would spawn the Matured Plant.

Ulted Plants would become Matured plants and Enrage them and Heal them

Numbers would of course be adjusted but a Matured plant would be feared like Ulted Turret

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ZnLs4Waf-zyra-needs-a-new-passive

SaiannaApr 6, 20181 votes

Riot removed Zyra from mid. I doubt they'd listen to you even if your thread had 1.000.000 upvotes (nedless to say it doesn't even have 10...)

I'd love Zyra being fixed, but Riot stopped being fun game company and are more just selling overpriced skins and lootboxes.

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

Except Zyra's fine wherever..... even as a jungler in ranked....

FakeGravityApr 6, 20181 votes

they need to change her plants mechanics so they be more useful and less damage focus, maybe if she target a seed with a skills the skill behave differently? maybe no damage on Q when targeting a seed but instead a short but inmune plant that send torns 360 degrees around it ? something have to change entirely, simple numbers wont fix the issue

AzadetheApr 7, 20181 votes

They already behave differently.

Q plants have a long range

E plants have a short range but slow.