[{quoted}](name=Wulf Helhammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d5td3vMw,comment-id=000200040000,timestamp=2019-11-21T20:41:06.978+0000)
What a role was at it's inception has no bearings on what it is currently, and currently, Riot has judged that jungler should be around the same level as a duo lane.
What you think you're saying: riot is our gods they decide what game they want
What you're actually saying:
A) riot famously contradicts themselves yet again by making it a supportive position when they previously establish many times, even in jungle's healthiest states that it was a solo position. Riot's judgement would be a false court order and mention of it would be heresy, because as we all know riot's judgement has never been ideal in most scenarios, which both boards and high elo can agree with even for different reasons, and ignoring that fact is just shilling them. If riot thinks the current state of preseason, and states of s9, s8, and s7 which they have constantly changed claiming those metas were ok, they'd never change them in the future and contradict their goal of making a competitive balanced moba, their "judgement" has always been "we're making changes to fix it! (1 year later), we're fixing it again!, (another year), we gotta revert something cause we judged wrong! (rubberband XP from s7 in s10)."
B) riot is talking out of their ass becausel jungle has been healthy in s6, s4, and from what I've heard s2 which was when carry junglers could go supportive. We look at s7, s8, and s9, deemed to be the most broken seasons for jungle (both player vs. it and player as it) what are the common factors? changes to XP.
s7 - rubberband became a thing, hyper aggression rose
s8 - gimped XP to crab forcing level 2 junglers that can spam gank for river priority, causing more hyper aggression
s9 - gimped XP, junglers sat in lanes rubberbanding off of buffs and krugs because its the most efficient value of XP alongside impacting and soaking.. guess what, hyper aggression rose even more again.
This means riot's missing what was healthy about the jungle and refusing to revert back to the times when jungle was a role not the role or the autofill role. Their "judgement" would be them talking out of their ass not knowing what they're even doing, they'd be the judges playing minesweeper during court and then just throw out an electric chair sentence over a case of somebody speeding thinking that's the way the judge duty works without the jury (players) consent.
If riot is our judge, for the love of god impeach them.
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The big key difference is them tackling XP, with higher JG XP;
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Spam ganking loses more XP as its instead downtime from farming, meanwhile the enemy jungler also is getting stronger in gold and XP, think back of sated devourer, where AFK perma farm jungling was still viable and keeping up with early game monsters like lee and elise off of completely outleveling and spiking hard into the game.
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a bigger variety of less spam gankers is played; laners have more breathing room inbetween games (imagine being a kayle main, every fucking game you're getting dove.. now imagine if it was every few games or every other game, its more acceptable and less frustrating.)
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Junglers can't just farm the same camp for rubberband XP, this means no more elise's that run straight to krugs, gank bot, recall, krugs, bot, look for mid/drag/crab/buffs, krugs, bot, removing rubberband XP (which they did) means they have to clear other camps to reset their XP level since 1 camp without rubberband XP isn't going to bounce them back from an XP deficent.
This is why they need to buff jungle XP, not nerf it more and more until only level 1 gankers or duo laning are viable because farming is just wasted downtown. There's a reason camille went from D tier in the jungle to S tier s8 with the XP change, because she didn't need XP to do what she needed to do and she wasn't missing out on any to do it either.
None of this is theory crafting, this is what fucking happened in old seasons when nobody was complaining, watch vods if you weren't there.. there's evidence of this being the way jungle needs to be and the fact we haven't realized this is just oblivious, no one with intelligence can compare a vod of a s4 or s6 high elo JG game to a s8 or s9 and think the recent jungle iterations are better.
coupled with a greater relative non-interaction (at least in the early game), compared to every other position in the game.
what is freezing
what is tracking leashes
what is counting CS and warding
what is understanding matchups The jungler has less influence of this than if you last pick an immobility champ that shoves vs. a champ with CC or engage. I can't do much as a jungler if you pick vlad into kassadin, but I sure as hell can disable you from playing the game if you pick no cleanse lux into twisted fate.
Heres the harsh truth, you don't know how to interact around junglers, in high elo this isn't as much of an issue unless your name is wingsofdeath, and I don't expect low elo to suddenly adapt to these concepts taught around the diamond-master tiers where even some of those players don't get them (nor do i expect low elo junglers to abuse that fact either), but there's very little justification for calling it non-interactive or if you want to refer to it as "broken" beyond what the individual player is doing. This isn't a role that you have no influence in controlling, its a role that you think you have no influence in controlling. This is where wave management is super important cause you can play around the position of their jungler based on counting their CS and knowing where they are after they reveal on the map, with this concept in mind, jungle becomes fucking useless and laner coinflip dependant in higher mmrs where it all depends on which jungler's team has the noobiest player that didn't pick setup or doesn't know these concepts that would nullify the other jungler, and to that noob, jungle is a broken role while everybody else is wondering why the fuck their jungler can't do anything.
and of course, again, these issues are elevated to new heights with how much hyper aggression is influenced due to low value in farming.
while playing 
or whatever and come back when you are 6 and wreck her ass with your local homie then even if she is 7.'
, specifically his lvl 6.
is my fav one