This champion wont be balanceble. I actually see this champion being STRONGER than that version of kog once she hits 16. before the season is over she will have atleast one mini rework, mark my words.
Critmaster Garen1 votesif you want to realize how useful that rework is, you just have to look at her how she is right now.
kayles current lategame is already that of a hyper carry. a kayle with rageblade, nashors and maybe 1 other item can already carry. one or two more items, and her damage potential becomes insane.
so what does her early game look like for that? shes so weak early and loses so many matchups to make up for her broken lategame, that she cant even be considered viable at the moment. so how is increasing that power gap even further going to fix that?
and its not even like 
where they have given her some sort of mechanic or some element of unreliability that her carry potential revolves around and could be used as a balancing lever. this new kayle is still a pure stat check champion whos only balancing lever is her power curve. this means her early game will HAVE to be so trash that she never gets to see her broken lategame, because its the only way to balance her.
shes either going to be so useless that no one is ever going to play her, or she is strong enough to scale halfway reliably, which would make her completely broken.
Saezio1 votesThe problem is that current kayle is unbalanceable. Let's hope the rework changes that. And putting her full potential behind levels is a good start imo.
If they made current Kayle to be viable, she would crowd out all the opposition because of the nature of her kit.
Critmaster Garen1 votesThe problem is that current kayle is unbalanceable. Let's hope the rework changes that.
it doesnt. because it doesnt change the reason why shes impossible to balance.
its quite the opposite. they made her even stronger lategame and even weaker early game.
thats kayles entire problem, and a problem with certain other similar champions (
). these champions are ranged stat check. nothing else, and theyre made to scale into a ridiculous lategame. but that means their only balancing lever is their power curve, and the only way to offset these champions lategame strength is to make them so trash early game, that they dont reliably scale. when theyre able to scale semi reliably theyre broken.
Saezio2 votes3 seconds of free autoattacks every teamfight is the imbalanceable part. Which is changed from what I saw. The fact that she is strong late and weak early is not what made her impossible to balance. The kit's nature did it.
Is veigar impossible to balance because he is weak early and strong late for example? I don't believe so.
Critmaster Garen1 votes3 seconds of free autoattacks every teamfight is the imbalanceable part. Which is changed from what I saw. The fact that she is strong late and weak early is not what made her impossible to balance. The kit's nature did it.
Is veigar impossible to balance because he is weak early and strong late for example? I don't believe so.
except for his r, veigar is designed around skillshots. skillshots add an element of unreliability to his kit since they can be outplayed. this means while he still has a weak early to strong late power curve, it doesnt have to be made quite as extreme.
veigars early game doesnt have to be complete shit, because he has elements in his kit that can be outplayed. so when the guy playing veigar uses these elements well, his baseline strength can be higher than that of kayle.
youre gonna realize very soon, that it wasnt just her ult.
Abibyama II1 votesI mean she has more Utility and Variance now I guess?
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d2zsBPA4,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T20:06:04.261+0000)
I mean she has more Utility and Variance now I guess?
in what way? her utility looks exactly the same to me.
q still slows and shreds resistances, w still heals just the same, and r doesnt do anything major different. she just has overall more damage at lvl 16.
Abibyama II1 votesYeah her Q is AoE skillshot which offers a bit more utility than her Current Q
But her R has a very important difference, an AoE nuke that prevents you from auto attacking for a bit. You could use it on a tank as a follow up or you can use it on your AD, I guess that's what I mean with variance that every ult usage will be different in different situations. Which I guess makes her less binary
I'm not too sure myself though
chipndip11 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d2zsBPA4,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T17:47:02.407+0000)
it doesnt. because it doesnt change the reason why shes impossible to balance.
Idk why they even have a balance section when people, including Riot employees, don't understand this simple concept.
I'm actually quite over reworks at this point. Either the rework is good and the whole boards starts a hate mob, or it's bad and the boards pretends its good. Now we get 2 reworks that accomplish fucking nothing. THIS is what we've been waiting for? Yeah, I'm over it.
Riot can go ahead and never do a rework again.
Abibyama II1 votesEither the rework is good and the whole boards starts a hate mob, or it's bad and the boards pretends its good
Why should riot care for the boards? this place is useless =)
Riot can go ahead and never do a rework again
No wait for Mordekaiser. Malicious Metal deserves it
chipndip11 votes[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d2zsBPA4,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-24T20:04:47.385+0000)
Why should riot care for the boards? this place is useless =)
Yet the opinions echoed on here influences their decision making way too much.
No wait for Mordekaiser. Malicious Metal deserves it
All he's gonna do is cry about it not being "The Mordekaiser he knows". That or the rework is garbage cause it doesn't do enough to make Mordekaiser not garbage due to fearing that someone like MM will come out with a thread screaming that "This isn't the Morde he knows".
Abibyama II1 votesMM already playtested the reworked Mordekaiser and he loves it icymi.
But to be fair the opinions have echoed everywhere, Reddit, Twitter, Twitch streamers (biggest culprits here imo), you name it
Imagine if Boards were literally the only one that gets pissed off and everyone else is cool with the decisions Riot made? Probably Riot wouldn't give two shits
kingDeDeDarius1 votesQuit your whining dude. The rework isn't even out yet. Better try it before you hate it.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesI disagree. Unlike vayne, who is actually decent early, while being a monster late, Kaylee will be much easier to lock down and cc burst, which means she has at least two form of counterplay -her power curve and cc because she's immobile. Sure, cc is a counter to vayne, if you can land it. Not only that, but tanky stats will be worth a little more against Kaylee than vayne because the true damage waves don't affect the champ being targeted and she doesn't have percent hp true damage. What she does have is much better aoe and overall teamfights damage than vayne, but long range mages will have a good time against Kaylee, even in late game, because she won't have the range that old kog had either
Fízz v21 votesPretty sure Kog was a lane bully compared to new Kayle tho. Plus idk.. even her late game doesnt look that good to me. Passive waves dont do much damage, ult disables auto attacks for a while and her DPS doesnt seem much better than that of an adc (if its even better at all xd)
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d2zsBPA4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-24T17:56:02.035+0000)
Pretty sure Kog was a lane bully compared to new Kayle tho. Plus idk.. even her late game doesnt look that good to me. Passive waves dont do much damage, ult disables auto attacks for a while and her DPS doesnt seem much better than that of an adc (if its even better at all xd)
at level 16 her waves deal a fuckton of true damage.
but its not just the level of damage she deals at that point. deals a fuckton of true damage too.
its the realiability with which lvl 16 kayle applies it. while there is the possibility to deny fiora your vitals, there is no possibility to evade kayles auto attacks. (unless youre playing jax)
that leaves the only way to balance kayle by making her early game as trash as her lategame is op.
Fízz v21 votesI think even Jax in his E gets hit by the waves since they are like spells. But they really dont do a lot, they literally have 10-30 base damage and 20% AP scaling.
Plus you have to consider that youre not even gonna reach level 16 in most games. For most of the game, you are just an immobile melee piece of shit champ.
I mean I agree that "awful early but god late game" isnt a very good way to design a champ, I just think she is way too weak to ever work right now (at least before the buff she got on PBE a few days ago, but its probably still the same)
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d2zsBPA4,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T18:23:10.187+0000)
I think even Jax in his E gets hit by the waves since they are like spells. But they really dont do a lot, they literally have 10-30 base damage and 20% AP scaling.
if you build 
the waves crit for 250 true damage.
but even if you just go standart on hit, they deal about 100 damage around lvl 16 per wave, 2.5 times (or more with lethal temo) per second.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesYou all act like it's a given that you will be hit by the waves...it's not. Just don't pack too tightly, no different than brand, except that brand can dump and run. Also, it doesn't apply to her primary target.
Critmaster Garen1 votesYou all act like it's a given that you will be hit by the waves...it's not. Just don't pack too tightly, no different than brand, except that brand can dump and run. Also, it doesn't apply to her primary target.
i mean, if you get auto attacked, youre gonna get hit by the waves.
it might not be given that she hits multiple people simultaneously, but her single target damage alone is already kindof dumb.
im not judging her by just by the preview and champion spotlight right now, but the gameplay ive seen of her on the pbe.
you have challenger players who struggle with her during the early game, when these same guys usually stomp pbe games. if they barely can make the champion even work against much less skilled opponents, how is kayle ever going to work on equal grounds?
and then they eventually manage to reach level 16 with her and suddenly kill multiple enemy champions in the matter of 5 seconds in a fight and literally blow everyone up.
ive seen screenshot comparisons of lategame kayle as she is now and post rework kayle with the same item builds, and she puts out double the dps on the same build as she does now. (you could see the numbers on the practise dummies)
kingDeDeDarius1 votesLet's be honest about something here. Nobody has the time or forethought to deny fiora your vitals past lane phase, that's a crock of bs.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesHard to say, she arguably top 5 worst early games now
