"Yasuo is the new Riven"

Kivolan·Aug 9, 2016·74 votes·4,513 views

Because they have the same problem: not trading anything for mobility. You have two completely resourceless champions who have very low cooldowns on their dashes. This is why they are so much fun to play, but very few people enjoy playing against them. You can't give a champion four dashes (why does Riven's E even need a dash with it? The world may never know) with cooldowns that are less than 5 seconds and not have them trade anything for it. It is impossible to get away from a Riven, and it is impossible to catch her if you do get an edge up.

If this buff to Riven's ult damage goes through, please for the love of god up her cooldowns to make up for how easy her itemization is right now.

I agree they both have high skillcaps, but it's extremely frustrating to play against champions where it's less about how skilled you are and more about how unskilled they are.

111 Comments

ValexforAug 9, 201618 votes

They pay with beying squishy.

Edit: Im joking.

ShadòwAug 9, 201624 votes

they both have shields. Rivens even scales with AD.

And immobile mages and adc's are even squishier.

ValexforAug 10, 20164 votes

Oh right, I forgot to say that was a joke.

DeathBot666Aug 10, 201625 votes

No, you posted in gameplay.

Everyone knows no one knows what a joke is if it isn't M&G.

ValexforAug 10, 20163 votes

Yeah, forgot about that aspect... thanks for reminding me that.

Velzard of KozAug 10, 20165 votes

That's why I always put #mandatorykappa there.

TeklmAug 10, 20166 votes

{quoted} Rivens even scales with AD.

You know, I don't really understand why people are so quick to act like that's a problem. Like, nearly every champ has abilities that scale with the stat they want to build. Why is Riven getting a bigger shield for building damage a problem when Lux getting a bigger shield for building damage is not a problem?

Battlecast SonaAug 10, 201612 votes

because while an AP champ's shield scaling when they are generally immobile makes sense and adds to their utility (Lux), a melee character with a shield that scales off AD while also giving them a dash is not (Riven). It's why Urgot shield originally scaled with AP and now scales with mana. It's why Vi's/Shen's shields scale with HP. Getting defensive stats for building defensive stats makes sense, and it helps these character survive. Riven having an AD scaling shield by itself isn't the problem, it's that it's ALSO a dash/repositioning tool on a super short CD.

TeklmAug 10, 20162 votes

Alright, but how else is Riven supposed to survive in melee range. She needs something to prevent her from just getting blown up, especially since she doesn't really have a way of quickly getting to the backline outside of a flank. Her dashes are too short ranged for that.

Umbra IoniaAug 10, 20161 votes

Yoummu. And her dashes short? Are you kidding?

TeklmAug 10, 20163 votes

Her dashes are rather short ranged really. Each Q cast moves her 260 units, and E moves her 325 units. For reference, Vayne's tumble moves 300 units. Compare that to something like Wukong's 625 range E dash, Jarvan's roughly 800 range E-Q combo, or Diana's 825 range ultimate dash. Riven lacks a sudden burst movement option the same way they do; she has a lot of dashes, and between all of them she crosses a huge distance (1105 range), but doing so takes longer than a lot of champions and causes her to miss out on quite a bit of damage. Even with Youmuu's, she can't suddenly force herself to the backline and usually gives a team plenty of opportunity to stop her. Edit: I suppose she could E first and then follow it up with her Q's to get in a second E, upping her overall dash combo range thing to 1430, but that still requires a 3.3 second total before her final e, meaning it's still not exactly quick.

doombotMECHAAug 10, 20161 votes

well, i mean, if she's trying to escape, she doesn't care about damage, does she? also if she uses her stuff to move well who cares no mana just do it again in 5 seconds

TeklmAug 11, 20161 votes

I was more talking about when she goes in on you, she gives you time to stop her, especially in a teamfight. I'm not a fan of how good she is at running away (fits her lore though).

statelesskillerAug 10, 20166 votes

the problem with the shield is that its building damage THAT ALSO allows her to become super tanky. and THEN with its stupid low cooldown (im shit at math but i ran it through a calculator. 6-45% being 2.7 second. 2.7-1.5=.6) you have a HALF second window to actually deal damage to her. because i know that most champs do NOT have the burst to blast through a 100% bonus ad scaling shield that also has a THICK 210 BASE shield she can get. why does she get base shielding AND a great scaling at the same time

now most people would think "oh thats not to bad. how much bonus ad could she possibly have?" a standard build that i run across with riven is this one

item 3071 item 3158 item 3142 item 3812 item 3156 item 3026

which when added up. this is without her base ad but with the% increase she woudl get from it with her ult mind you. i got 307 bonus ad

thats a 500 point shield . . . on what amounts to a HALF SECOND COOLDOWN. which not only do you have to chew through that raw shield you also have to chew through the armor and mr she has because of ga AS WELL as the psuedo tankiness that a deaths dance provides. good luck doing any meaningful health damage to her. and then while her shield is back up she is healing up.

she just feels so . . . tanky. she feels like your fighting a drain tank. EXCEPT SHE ISNT A DRAIN tank.your fighting her just to get through her shield TO ACTUALLY HURT HER

TeklmAug 10, 20162 votes

Your math is wrong. 6-45% is 3.3 seconds, whereas you took 3.3 seconds from the 6 second cooldown. Besides that, 2.7 -1.5 is 1.2 seconds, just a bit over a second. Overall, Riven's E at 45% cdr is 3.3 seconds with a 1.5 second duration. Assuming the shield remains up for it's full duration, you have a 1.8 second window to damage her (2.1 if she doesn't take the 45% cdr mastery, and even then this relies on her getting a 40% cdr build. Can a Riven player say how common that is/how long it takes to reach that point?). After that; yes, it's a powerful shield and I totally understand how frustatingly durable she feels. If she lives long enough to get the second shield up she gets to lifesteal back a lot of her health, but she does leave herself open. Crowd controlling her when her shield is down is often a death sentence for her, and she can't dodge if she can't move.

Battlecast SonaAug 10, 20163 votes

the problem is that "crowd control" is not an adequate hard counter, especially to a character with 4 dashes in her kit. With the removal of a lot of point and click CC from the game, Riven becomes harder to counter - I will not be surprised at all if she gets stronger as the class reworks continue, because point and click CC is being (basically) phased out of the game, barring a few examples. Any time a character's only real counter is "crowd control them", that's how you know they're a problem - when Katarina was legitimately an issue (cancerous as hell in most MMRs) this was the common "counterplay" given for her as well (just CC her!).

LionelLeonAug 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cwahR96n,comment-id=00000000000300010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-08-10T16:48:54.589+0000)

the problem is that "crowd control" is not an adequate hard counter, especially to a character with 4 dashes in her kit. With the removal of a lot of point and click CC from the game, Riven becomes harder to counter - I will not be surprised at all if she gets stronger as the class reworks continue, because point and click CC is being (basically) phased out of the game, barring a few examples. Any time a character's only real counter is "crowd control them", that's how you know they're a problem - when Katarina was legitimately an issue (cancerous as hell in most MMRs) this was the common "counterplay" given for her as well (just CC her!).

Janna ult? any CC that gets her away from ur carry? People make riven seem like an unkillable goddess.

Battlecast SonaAug 11, 20161 votes

Where did I say that? I said it's not adequate counterplay.

Katarina in her heyday was definitely killable, but it just was entirely dependant on either A) Katarina fucking up or B) your team being stacked with CC from the get-go. Riven is reaching that same territory - you can beat a fed Riven if you can stack CC on her, but you can kill ANYBODY IN THE GAME if you can do that, so... When that's the only real counterplay to a champion, it's not real counterplay at all.

LionelLeonAug 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cwahR96n,comment-id=0000000000030001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-11T00:29:16.075+0000)

Where did I say that? I said it's not adequate counterplay.

Katarina in her heyday was definitely killable, but it just was entirely dependant on either A) Katarina fucking up or B) your team being stacked with CC from the get-go. Riven is reaching that same territory - you can beat a fed Riven if you can stack CC on her, but you can kill ANYBODY IN THE GAME if you can do that, so... When that's the only real counterplay to a champion, it's not real counterplay at all.

I'm not gonna bother responding to everyone saying Kat only has one weakness, and that is CC her. If you really want to know, go to the katarina mains subreddit

Battlecast SonaAug 11, 20161 votes

Katarina in her heyday

when Katarina was legitimately an issue (cancerous as hell in most MMRs) this was the common "counterplay" given for her as well (just CC her!).

reading comprehension is OP

THE RlVER KlNGAug 10, 20161 votes

Agree with Janna. 'Just crowd control her' - especially in the limited time framed in which it would even ensure a kill - is dumb because it can be applied to literally every carry in the game, especially ones that aren't nearly as mobile or tanky as Riven.

Spicy RiceAug 10, 20161 votes

I'm sorry, but were you planning on ccing the tank?

THE RlVER KlNGAug 10, 20161 votes

What? No, just saying that CC is a counter to all champions, especially ones far less mobile or tanky than Riven who also have more counterplay. Don't understand what you were trying to imply.

Battlecast SonaAug 11, 20161 votes

When CC is counterplay to everyone, you can't say "well just CC them" as if it's effective. There are multiple ways to outplay most champs in the game, and while "CC them" is almost always one of them it shouldn't be the only answer. Unless that champ is like Kassadin who has a garbage early game and if you let them get to late game you deserve the lategame worries - and, you know, the counterplay of "camping him early/denying him farm/kills".

TeklmAug 11, 20161 votes

The thing about "just CC them" is that it does have varying effectiveness depending on the champions. Yes, every carry can be CC'd and then murdered (except GP I guess), but that doesn't make it invalid against Riven. Even if the CC lands while she has has her shield up it's really not that big. Focus fire from a high dps champion like a Kog'Maw or Minigun-Jinx will usually kill her. Same thing applies for a high damage mage like Viktor or Veigar.

RianAug 10, 20164 votes

In my opinion rivens scaling is the most healthy design choise (and best for ballance). You know exactly what you are facing and the ballance team dont have to consider random op niches (...ap yi..). This would prevent stuff like a tank yasuo empowered base shield or a phoenix udyr power shield bonus.

Voluug13Aug 11, 20161 votes

That also triggers her passive, so its a dps gain too!

BIH DiamondAug 10, 20162 votes

Shield popped by a single auto

Such broken!

ShadòwAug 10, 20161 votes

Not really and not even close when you are ap

BIH DiamondAug 24, 20161 votes

LMAO YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW THE CHAMP YET U BITCH ABOUT IT

Any auto in the game breaks the shield. No matter how much damage it does. It can be 1 dmg and it will break the shield LOOOL standard boards complainer

ShadòwSep 8, 20161 votes

It activates it.

Breaking means dealing enough damage to make it instantly disappear. When you activate it he still has ~2 sec to dash away and wait until he got it again.

PoskeAug 10, 20161 votes

Are they melee though?

GULAG 4 UAug 10, 20161 votes

The only problem is yasuo's shield is basically an aa blocker if you're ranged, and same thing for melees honestly. It gets popped by everything and only lasts 2 seconds. Also riven can't activate her shield under cc, but the rest is bullshit : ^)

LionelLeonAug 10, 20168 votes

They're skirmishers, like Fiora and Ekko; They need a shit ton of mobility and be able to win( Trade 1 for 1 in a gank, 1 for 0, or 2 for 0) when outnumbered because that's how the champion class works.

Yasuo has a knockup, suspension in air, high situational mobility and a wall. Riven Has a shield, high mobility, high CC and damage Fiora % health true damage, High situational mobility, parry, and slows. Ekko high amount of CC, Above average mobility, heal, and returning to a better position.

1v1 ing a skirmisher or 1v2 when behind is not advised because they're kit works like that.

yay nibbersAug 10, 20163 votes

This. People need to understand that they're designed to require their mobility and survival tools to win fights. They don't just get "free mobility" like OP and others say, it's not like they have four abilities then extra dash abilities on top of that. A lot of their kit budget goes into their high mobility and survival tools, all you have to do is root or stun them and it's usually game over for them. Riven straight up can't use more than half of her kit (all Qs included) when snared.

General Esdeath Aug 10, 20167 votes

Well Yas needs minions, and if Riven wastes her Q+E to catch you, she blew all her spells (aside from a stun) to do damage. Plus she lost her shield (good for free trades) and an extra passive stack.

MLDzXnRRRAug 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well Yas needs minions, and if Riven wastes her Q+E to catch you, she blew all her spells (aside from a stun) to do damage. Plus she lost her shield (good for free trades) and an extra passive stack.

Riven's damage comes mainly from her passive, not from her abilities...

General Esdeath Aug 10, 20161 votes

Her abilities provide CC, free trade shields, and her passive stacks, which she wasted 1 of if she used Q Q E Q to catch up to you.

MLDzXnRRRAug 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Her abilities provide CC, free trade shields, and her passive stacks, which she wasted 1 of if she used Q Q E Q to catch up to you.

Like they are not up again after few seconds, right... Q - 7 sec W = 3,85 E = 3 sec R = 35?

General Esdeath Aug 10, 20163 votes

If you're max CDR. But in early lane, it's more of:

Q - 10 sec W - 11 sec E - 10 sec R - 120 sec

So unless you're standing there doing nothing but staring at your screen with your mouth open, she's taking free damage and has no mobility or CC (aside from a short range stun) for the next 10 seconds.

PermabannedGarenAug 10, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Because they have the same problem: not trading anything for mobility. You have two completely resourceless champions who have very low cooldowns on their dashes. This is why they are so much fun to play, but very few people enjoy playing against them. You can't give a champion four dashes (why does Riven's E even need a dash with it? The world may never know) with cooldowns that are less than 5 seconds and not have them trade anything for it. It is impossible to get away from a Riven, and it is impossible to catch her if you do get an edge up.

If this buff to Riven's ult damage goes through, please for the love of god up her cooldowns to make up for how easy her itemization is right now.

I agree they both have high skillcaps, but it's extremely frustrating to play against champions where it's less about how skilled you are and more about how unskilled they are.

So have you ever actually looked at Yasuo's base stats?

They're awful, easily the worst of the melee carries.

Have you ever actually looked at what Yasuo's E and Q actually are? His E's base damage is very low and can't be used on the same target for six seconds at the lowest. His Q is barely stronger than his auto attacks.

The cooldowns of these abilities is so low because individually a single casting of E or Q isn't worth dog shit.

Riven's bases aren't much better than Yasuo's, and she is even more close ranged than Yasuo is, not counting her ult execute. Her E allows her to not be immediately killed every time she tries to team fight as a melee champion who builds pretty much purely offense.

DogshítPlayerAug 10, 20161 votes

The e gets a 50% increase on damage... and he cheeses you with it early game to either gret an early kill thencome back and snowball with an item advantage... plus ihe has a sheild that can counteract poke ... and a wind wall and he can use q to poke another melee from out of there aa range ...

YumScrumptious96Aug 10, 20162 votes

If 50% extra damage on his E from using it once is enough to cheese and get a kill to comeback, you are pretty bad at the game.

Umbra IoniaAug 10, 20161 votes

Ye ye and Shen has the lower tank stats in the game and its picked in LCS, nobody cares about early stats.

PermabannedGarenAug 10, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Ye ye and Shen has the lower tank stats in the game and its picked in LCS, nobody cares about early stats.

Early stats? Yasuo's base stats later on are also shit, which is a big deal when Yasuo as a carry has to build a minimum of three damage items before building any defense.

Shen is also statistically the safest top laner in the game. Yasuo isn't.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Top&sortBy=general.deaths&order=descend

Oh, and since the LCS is a big deal for you, Yasuo is barely ever picked and usually loses in the LCS. Shen is the opposite.

MLDzXnRRRAug 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Early stats? Yasuo's base stats later on are also shit, which is a big deal when Yasuo as a carry has to build a minimum of three damage items before building any defense.

Shen is also statistically the safest top laner in the game. Yasuo isn't.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Top&sortBy=general.deaths&order=descend

Oh, and since the LCS is a big deal for you, Yasuo is barely ever picked and usually loses in the LCS. Shen is the opposite.

Yasuo's hp and mr are low, because of his passive shield and the wall... (Kassadin has lower stats than him lvl 18) The rest of his stats are not low - also his range is insane - 175. You can often destroy the enemy toplaner while attacking behind your minions.

PermabannedGarenAug 10, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo's hp and mr are low, because of his passive shield and the wall... (Kassadin has lower stats than him lvl 18) The rest of his stats are not low - also his range is insane - 175. You can often destroy the enemy toplaner while attacking behind your minions.

When you compare base stats you should compare them to champions within their own class. Assassins tend to have worse base stats than fighters and especially melee carries.

Yasuo's base stats compared to Yi or Tryndamere's are very bad.

His range is pretty good, but let's compare him to other commonly picked top laners.

GP's AA is outranged, but his kit allows him to essentially function as a ranged champion.

Darius has the same AA range as Yas while also having longer range in most of his abilities.

Riven's AA range is shorter without her ult, but her many damaging dashes make up for that.

Irelia's AA range is shorter, but her E isn't. In general Irelia destroys Yasuo as a champion. her E totally shitting on his lane presence.

Fiora is like Riven. Shorter AA range (though not by much, 150 vs. 175) is compensated by her low cooldown mobility.

Gnar is ranged, though he usually loses to Yasuo anyway.

Renekton's W has the same range as Yasuo's AAs, Q outranges them, and his dash allows him to go in, do his combo, and leave. Has no problem trading with Yasuo.

Jax's E makes Yasuo's AA and I think Qs useless, and his point and click gap closer lets him go in for the stun.

All right Shen might actually have trouble trading with Yasuo if Yas can avoid his E, but Shen can turtle in lane and be a bigger impact mid game anyway.

So of the top ten picked top laners, only one has any real issue with Yasuo's AA range. There are more that don't. Trundle and Garen have the same range, Illaoi's abilities give her much more range than Yas, ranged top laners obviously don't care, etc.