Vayne's % Max Health Isn't the Problem,....

Troy242621·Aug 13, 2015·58 votes·2,628 views

The truth is, you can afford to have low counterplay on some abilities so long as the counterplay is high on other abilities. She's supposed to be a tank shredder. THAT'S PERFECTLY OKAY.

Vayne IS weak early game, that's a fact. But, she's not vulnerable. She's incredibly safe. Unless she makes a grave mistake, or gets 4 man ganked, she won't die. At best you can deny CS. Especially true with Thresh/Kench running around.

Take a look at a VULNERABLE early game champion. Twitch isn't going to win trades, his only escape can be delayed by SIX seconds (Which also limits his ability to fight back since it also has his only AS steroid), he has no self-peel and his damage output is overall pretty low until he's at least level 6 and initiates the fight with Q and R up.

Vayne is a problem because she has much better access to her end game fantasy than any other end game ADC, and it shows. For the end game she has, her early game should be punishable, and it's just not punishable enough.

I'M NOT SAYING she can't be punished. I'm saying it's not enough. That's her problem, not % max health true damage.

50 Comments

DreadlocksAug 13, 20159 votes

There is no problem.. and if someone is going to try to make an argument against vayne's damage, it better be talking about the synergy with botrk. Botrk is the main problem.. not vayne.

Troy242621Aug 13, 201513 votes

{quoted}

There is no problem.. and if someone is going to try to make an argument against vayne's damage, it better be talking about the synergy with botrk. Botrk is the main problem.. not vayne.

Bork isn't a problem with most other champions. It's a problem uniquely with her because she synergizes with all of it.

More self peel? Makes her self peel, mobility and MS boosts even better. Makes it hard to escape her. More % max health damage? Shreds better. Attack speed? Proc both her tank shredders faster. Life steal? Better sustain, makes her already strong duelling even better. Makes fighting her, an already difficult endeavor, even harder. Attack damage? More damage is always good.

Compare the potency of her power spike when she finishes building this to any other champion that builds it, and I guarantee hers spikes harder.

AbyssphereAug 13, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Bork isn't a problem with most other champions. It's a problem uniquely with her because she synergizes with all of it.

More self peel? Makes her self peel, mobility and MS boosts even better. Makes it hard to escape her. More % max health damage? Shreds better. Attack speed? Proc both her tank shredders faster. Life steal? Better sustain, makes her already strong duelling even better. Makes fighting her, an already difficult endeavor, even harder. Attack damage? More damage is always good.

Compare the potency of her power spike when she finishes building this to any other champion that builds it, and I guarantee hers spikes harder.

I would argue BOTRK is a problem with a lot more champions than just Vayne. It is the #1 reason that Sated Devourer is considered a problem by so many people.

Troy242621Aug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I would argue BOTRK is a problem with a lot more champions than just Vayne. It is the #1 reason that Sated Devourer is considered a problem by so many people.

I think that Devourer, Feral Flare and the entire concept of the item they're trying to design has more problems than synergizing with bork.

AbyssphereAug 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think that Devourer, Feral Flare and the entire concept of the item they're trying to design has more problems than synergizing with bork.

It does conceptually, but balance-wise I think it'd be downright underpowered were it not for the existence of BOTRK. It is quite frankly utterly insane as an item.

Troy242621Aug 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It does conceptually, but balance-wise I think it'd be downright underpowered were it not for the existence of BOTRK. It is quite frankly utterly insane as an item.

To me, that's more indicative of a problem with Devourer than Bork.

Puppet33rAug 13, 20152 votes

if some silly jungler rushes botrk after devourer it usually means he is REAALLY squishy.

bradAug 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Bork isn't a problem with most other champions. It's a problem uniquely with her because she synergizes with all of it.

More self peel? Makes her self peel, mobility and MS boosts even better. Makes it hard to escape her. More % max health damage? Shreds better. Attack speed? Proc both her tank shredders faster. Life steal? Better sustain, makes her already strong duelling even better. Makes fighting her, an already difficult endeavor, even harder. Attack damage? More damage is always good.

Compare the potency of her power spike when she finishes building this to any other champion that builds it, and I guarantee hers spikes harder.

bork is 8% current health every auto attack

jarvan's passive is 10% current health every 10/8/6 seconds

tell me again how bork isnt broken

AkaliholicAug 14, 20151 votes

Trundle spikes harder than Vayne with BotRK. He is quite possibly the strongest champion in the entire game as soon as he finishes that one item. Irelia also would, if she actually cared to rush BotRK, but generally not a good idea on Irelia cause TriForce does so much more for her.

Just a nitpick though, carry on.

WolfBVAug 14, 20151 votes

Ooh, makes me want to see a Warwick and Vayne go at it.

TotalJerkAug 14, 20151 votes

It blows my mind that there was almost no complaint about it when BotRK was buffed.

Remlap1223Aug 13, 20154 votes

You're right, Vayne's % Max Health true damage isn't the problem. It's the flat true damage. For someone that's supposed to be the "tank busting" ADC, she's better at deleting squishies with Silver Bolts than tanks.

50% of the reason Vayne's OP right now is because all of her counters got dumpstered (especially my sweet Titty Princess, who bathed in the tears of Vayne mains.)

The other 50% is because BORK is stupid. The item has been OP since they buffed the %current health damage to it's values today, it's just been overshadowed by the lane bullies that were meta before Vayne (Lucian, Corki, Graves, Jinx).

Nerf BORK back to its season 3 values, and Vayne instantly becomes balanced again. Take out the flat true damage on her W, and give compensation buffs to her Q and E to make up for the huge damage loss on squishy targets, and you've got a textbook definition of a staple champion of balance, despite having a stupidly powerful mechanic such as % max health true damage.

kile147Aug 13, 20151 votes

There's nothing wrong with her W dealing more damage to squishies. Tank busters are not always supposed to be able to kill tanks just as fast as they kill squishies, they are supposed to kill them at a speed more on par with squishies. Also at no point in the game does your W do deletion level damage to squishes. Against squishies a single W proc is usually worth an extra auto attack worth of damage. Even against obscenely tanky targets it's probably only worth 1 or 2 autos (400 true damage per proc on a target with 4250 health). I don't like Vayne but her W is not the issue.

Bork is definitely problematic though.

ZephyrDrakeAug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You're right, Vayne's % Max Health true damage isn't the problem. It's the flat true damage. For someone that's supposed to be the "tank busting" ADC, she's better at deleting squishies with Silver Bolts than tanks.

50% of the reason Vayne's OP right now is because all of her counters got dumpstered (especially my sweet Titty Princess, who bathed in the tears of Vayne mains.)

The other 50% is because BORK is stupid. The item has been OP since they buffed the %current health damage to it's values today, it's just been overshadowed by the lane bullies that were meta before Vayne (Lucian, Corki, Graves, Jinx).

Nerf BORK back to its season 3 values, and Vayne instantly becomes balanced again. Take out the flat true damage on her W, and give compensation buffs to her Q and E to make up for the huge damage loss on squishy targets, and you've got a textbook definition of a staple champion of balance, despite having a stupidly powerful mechanic such as % max health true damage.

you are saying this like the flat true damage she has is something like 100+ per proc, it's 60 at max rank. She is doing to you way more AA damage before her flat true damage even procs. The main reason vayne is the way it is, it's like you said BotRK and that all ADCs that were lane bullies can't afford to bully a fly anymore.

Mandang0Aug 13, 20154 votes

I'm MUCH more bothered by her on-demand stealth, damage steroid on ult, and damage steroid + mobility on Q than by silver bolts. Just think how many ADCS don't bother using their skills lategame because of the loss in DPS - Vayne has none of that problem.

Cenobite AzazielAug 13, 20153 votes

The free MS she gets in a a huge zone is a real pain in the ass. When she gets a lead, good luck. Her ms boost with a Q tumble means you have no way out. You are not mobile? Take a break, a cup of water, vayne will stun you and tear you a new one.

lolipopevelynnAug 13, 20153 votes

tumble and condemn is what makes her so safe, but you cant remove that from her kit since it makes vayne vayne...

removing the stealth from her ult+tumble is a good idea tho. idk why its there.

KingKong2350Aug 13, 20152 votes

I know you don't want to believe this, but you can remove her stealth. With a 100 gold item

Crowe StalkerAug 14, 20151 votes

Which, at the end-game, you don't have a slot for. item 3364 isn't efficient because she can simply kill the target, and who the hell buys item 3362 ?

KingKong2350Aug 15, 20151 votes

Then don't complain about vayne stealth

PoskeAug 13, 20152 votes

I laught to all the threads who are similar to this claims

Vayne early game isnt weak enough (All her counters got nerfed etc bullshit) Vayne %max health cant be countered

NO NONE OF THAT IS A REASON YOU ACTUALLY HATE VAYNE. THIS IS WHAT FRUSTRATES YOU

THIS -The fact that amater people cant trade back during her final hour. Most of people find it difficult to trade back in between her stealths Infact most people give up once she final hours on them

Everything which excells at killing is OP Judging by this boards . Its getting disgusting

Vayne requires babysit ELSE she gets smashed against a worthy enemies

Now hot to smash vayne

-Her early game is horrible. Poke her, zone her If you cant do that you are just bad ADC/SUPPORT unless you are up against higher elo -She has no waveclear. Push wave under her tower -Avoid fighting 1vs1 An ADC assassin -Do not go full tank its pointless if you are up against vayne get some dmg to. Offense is the best defense (She counters tanky teams) -Thormail -Upograde your trinkets and she is useless -Learn to trade when you are doing those 2vs2 botlane fights . She isnt in stealth forever -Dont chase her like a sheep if she starts kiting

My Waifu VanillaAug 14, 20152 votes

Vayne's early game is pretty bad.....until level 6 and cutlass where she can all in any adc besides graves and come out ahead since most cc that would stop her in laning phase is skill shot based and can and will be dodged with tumble.

My main problem with Vayne is how much she can carry games just by being very good at Vayne. I'm not saying you shouldn't be rewarded for mastering a champion but the fact a GOOD Vayne can easily snowball the game and have permanent stealth and be impossible to touch is a tad rediculous. And it's not like you can shut her down too much since there is a chance the game could hit 35 minutes and it won't really matter. Vayne is more Feast or Go on a Diet than famine.

PoskeAug 14, 20152 votes

then abuse the free elo.. OH wait none of you can

9baksQuJhbAug 13, 20152 votes

Makes a Graves mistake, you say?

ArkenStormAug 13, 20151 votes

EHEHEHEHEHEH IT'S MY MUSHROOM -dunkey 2015

KhâmulAug 13, 20152 votes

KogMaw

A Miss FortuneAug 14, 20152 votes

Vayne's main issue is her Condem (E) and I'll write a nice argument for it. (Feel free to argue against this.)

Vayne's Condem has so many uses, just by playing Vayne for a few games I've already found it to be extremely useful in so many situations. But I feel like It's one of the reasons why her early game Isn't bad at all.

If you're being engaged on, or the enemy mid/top/jungler came to gank, you can just Condem them away. It gives her a ton of safety and makes it nearly impossible to chase her on top of her Tumble.
It also allows her to punish people for little mistakes in almost a guaranteed kill. By moving up against terrain, Vayne will Condem you into it, stunning you and allowing her Support to freely engage on you.
Vayne can pull off cheesey ways to effectively poke you down. She, at level 3 only, can AA > Q > AA > E. Her E applies stacks of her W passive, Silver Bolts. So by doing this combo, she applies all three stacks but also pushes you away from her so you can NOT trade back with her aside from maybe an auto attack or two while she is pulling off this combo, but in the end she will always do more damage since her True Damage does flat damage + % of your maximum health as true damage. This makes her so strong just by applying the 3rd stack of her Silver Bolts on you and forcing you away so you cannot outtrade her by any means as an ADC early game.

Vayne's Condem allows her so much safety, allows her to pick up kills by punishing tiny mistakes, and it also allows her to poke down or pretty much outtrade every single ADC if she pulls off her combo right during the early game phase of the game. The only ADCs I can actually think of that could ever outtrade her or prevent her from pulling off this combo of AA > Q > AA > E are Caitlyn and Miss Fortune who are easily the two most dominant laning phase ADCs mind you, due to Caitlyn's high range simply not allowing Vayne to get in range to pull off her combo, and Miss Fortune's extremely high early game damage output.

I feel like by simply removing the stun and W stack from her Condem Vayne's early game will be noticeably weaker. But maybe in exchange increasing her Condem's damage a small bit if necessary so it would not be nerfed too hard.

General MuricaAug 13, 20151 votes

Ehm, twitch beats vayne

ElegantDogeAug 13, 20152 votes

Since when?

Mirage SeraphAug 13, 20152 votes

Well, late game under favorable situations and assuming Vayne didn't snowball out of control, a Twitch can win a teamfight faster than Vayne and from half a screen away.

... He still missed the point of the comparison though.

General MuricaAug 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Since when?

Since always really.

ElegantDogeAug 13, 20152 votes

If you're talking about aoe damage in teamfight i say yes,totaly but not aboue single target damage,kitting and snowballing.

Celeste BenalAug 13, 20151 votes

Take the joint out of your mouth. Extinguish it. Now try thinking again.

General MuricaAug 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=crqNZmY2,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-08-13T20:54:06.917+0000)

Take the joint out of your mouth. Extinguish it. Now try thinking again.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Celeste+Benal+

ok.

FerezillaAug 14, 20151 votes

ahahahahahahahaha no.

General MuricaAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

ahahahahahahahaha no.

Now thats funny http://www.lolking.net/guides/276787 http://www.lolking.net/guides/21086

Seems like dia 1-2 vayne/twitch mains agree

A Miss FortuneAug 14, 20152 votes

The only aspects Twitch beats Vayne in is teamfighting. Aside from that Vayne has better mobility, damage (true damage included), CC, dueling, and does better than him throughout the game in every aspect besides teamfighting.

In terms of dueling, I think Vayne stomps Twitch due to him not having the ability to burst her down and she can easily ignore his +300 extra range on his ultimate since her Tumble and passive will allow her to get close enough. On top of that I believe Vayne's AD bonus on her ultimate is better than Twitch's and also her true damage can do significantly more if she applies all 3 stacks, meanwhile Twitch has to apply all 6 of his stacks to even do damage that does more than stop their health regen.

General MuricaAug 14, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=crqNZmY2,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2015-08-14T02:46:55.521+0000)

The only aspects Twitch beats Vayne in is teamfighting. Aside from that Vayne has better mobility, damage (true damage included), CC, dueling, and does better than him throughout the game in every aspect besides teamfighting.

In terms of dueling, I think Vayne stomps Twitch due to him not having the ability to burst her down and she can easily ignore his +300 extra range on his ultimate since her Tumble and passive will allow her to get close enough. On top of that I believe Vayne's AD bonus on her ultimate is better than Twitch's and also her true damage can do significantly more if she applies all 3 stacks, meanwhile Twitch has to apply all 6 of his stacks to even do damage that does more than stop their health regen.

This was about laning, twitch outlanes 2v2 hard.

A Miss FortuneAug 14, 20152 votes

I don't think so, Vayne still has better everything than Twitch aside from teamfighting, which usually doesn't happen in bot lane until both sides tp in.

(I just started a game as Twitch vs Vayne after posting this, I'm not a Twitch main but I do have a lot of experience with him and I'll post on how it went to see if I was wrong.)

General MuricaAug 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=crqNZmY2,comment-id=0002000300000000,timestamp=2015-08-14T02:56:04.777+0000)

I don't think so,

Im sorry, but dia opinion of a twitch main>yours. 2v2=/=1v1.

A Miss FortuneAug 14, 20152 votes

Well I went 17-1 and the Vayne went 6-8.

The thing is that, even though the Vayne was ABSOLUTELY horrible, she still was extremely difficult to catch early game and actually was a huge threat despite her being a terrible Vayne player.

FeathermaneAug 13, 20151 votes

...it's the solution.

Celeste BenalAug 13, 20151 votes

Actually, it kind of is. She does more true damage per game than pretty much every champ in the game except Ahri.

High5Aug 14, 20151 votes

The problem is teams don't play against Vayne. Jinx used to be OP, but when you realize that she's kinda immobile in a game with a lot of cc and mobility, she isn't quite as strong.

Work against Vayne early, knowing she's a late game carry, and many teams will be far more successful. I don't see it as that much different than not feeding Riven or Blanc 6 months ago. Recognize the challenge and adapt.

Count BuffonAug 14, 20151 votes

What if Silver Bolts stacked up to 3 times, but needed Tumble to activate the damage? Then you couldn't just rightclick2win and then tumble away whenever you felt like it.

(Never mind that the rank 5 cooldown on Tumble is currently idiotically low...)

RisurinAug 14, 20151 votes

huh i'm pretty sure kogmaw, tristana and jinx are stronger in lane and have potentially better powerspike for midgame fights, and trist/jinx destroy objectives, kog just deal more damage then vayne. If you gonna compare it to other hypercarries, dont just name the one that has a weaker laneing and call it the reference for every hypercarries lol... Furthermore, being denied gold on a role that depend so much on high cost items, is really hurtful lol, even if you dont die (you can get zoned from exp range even). Twitch laning is just weird because he needs to get multiple autos in and then E to do about the same has some other champ that can start the fight with Q and get a few auto. Twitch can win fight if they are prolonged, but yeah his trading arent that great.

Troy242621Aug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

huh i'm pretty sure kogmaw, tristana and jinx are stronger in lane and have potentially better powerspike for midgame fights, and trist/jinx destroy objectives, kog just deal more damage then vayne. If you gonna compare it to other hypercarries, dont just name the one that has a weaker laneing and call it the reference for every hypercarries lol... Furthermore, being denied gold on a role that depend so much on high cost items, is really hurtful lol, even if you dont die (you can get zoned from exp range even). Twitch laning is just weird because he needs to get multiple autos in and then E to do about the same has some other champ that can start the fight with Q and get a few auto. Twitch can win fight if they are prolonged, but yeah his trading arent that great.

If you insist.

Tristana: Weak early, weak mid, strong late. Takes far longer to ramp up. Pretty safe at all intervals, post-6 particularly. Poorer duelist, but far longer range. Still mostly single target. Not a poor teamfighter but nor is she the best. Superior sieging.

Kog'Maw: Literally no mobility, laughably poor self peel (A slow he as to stop moving to cast, good luck peeling with that) and mediocre dueling.

RisurinAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you insist.

Tristana: Weak early, weak mid, strong late. Takes far longer to ramp up. Pretty safe at all intervals, post-6 particularly. Poorer duelist, but far longer range. Still mostly single target. Not a poor teamfighter but nor is she the best. Superior sieging.

Kog'Maw: Literally no mobility, laughably poor self peel (A slow he as to stop moving to cast, good luck peeling with that) and mediocre dueling.

what ? yeah, i will insist.

Tristana: early is actually pretty strong, and her E does so much AoE damage when stacked up. she can always clear her lane, so its not like csing is too much an issue. But at the moment the enemy bot lane back and you stay as trist, you take their tower in a sec and voila, you got a nice an juicy lead for your team, and are free to rotate for more easy objectives. and she is definatly stronger with her ramping up range, reset jump and ult knockback. with her Q AS and crit items, she can fight a lot of adcs and destroy teams later on just because she shoots more and so have more chances with critical strikes on top of E damage and and jump resets.

Kog'Maw: yeah sure low mobility and E is the only peel. Thats why support are so great in bot lane, they can look after the mobility weakness of some champions (hi thresh lantern). Ever heard the term "juggermaw"? that the team comp where ADC kogmaw becomes literally your team Damage and Frontline. with something like a thresh, janna or lulu kogmaw weakness are not so weak anymore, and yet he does tons of damage again, specially late game, on a triforce adc even. personatly i feel like more range (up to 710) + 6% max hp every hit is stronger then 8% on third consecutive hit. also he has a 1200-1800 range poke to chunk his opponent before the fight even began.

Find it funny how you point out the dueling weakness so often. Yes you right in 1v1 against a lot of ADCs i too, more often then otherwise, would put my money on the duelist one rather then someone else, but not on every case.

TyroneWatermelonAug 14, 20151 votes

Can't zone,can't catch,can't poke because she has a support. She's weak early game like any other adc,except Groves and maybe draven if he is skilled. Push?no problem then even with wards lee sin will come from nowhere to do his high skillcap flash point and click knockback to give vayne a kill. After 6 almost no one can deal with her,too much steriods and damage,don't forget it's true damage,Blade of the Ruined King and Q. Rip support. The counter to adc is building tanky no? Good luck with that,unless you are Malph or Nunu you can't counter her w