"Solution to balance Vayne" I open the thread "Delete her"

YumaS2Astral·Jul 27, 2015·113 votes·5,245 views

Seriously, stop with that shit. I am totally in favor of nerfs for and a bunch of other champions like , and by no means I create threads with a title that would mislead you into believing that there are actual points written about why those champions should be nerfed, only to see that the actual content is just "Delete her/him".

Those threads do not explain why those champions are broken and serve just to spam the boards. You can hate a champion, but if you think that this champion is broken, at least provide a reasonable explanation to why.

93 Comments

Monsta MooJul 27, 20158 votes

I posted this elsewhere, so I'll drop it here too. So Silver Bolts deals flat damage+ HP% in true damage. I propose we beef up the flat damage a bit and make it the only part that deals true damage. The HP% will deal standard AD damage, opening up some counter play and making your armor actually matter

Edit: We can also make it deal HP% AD damage with a true damage DOT at a lower degree. "Vayne tips her bolts with a rare metal, toxic to evil things."

360D3GR3SSJul 27, 20156 votes

The only nerf vayne MIGHT need is her attackspeed per level reduced slightly.

YumaS2AstralJul 27, 20159 votes

{quoted}

The only nerf vayne MIGHT need is her attackspeed per level reduced slightly.

Reduce her base attack speed and remove the flat true damage component from her Silver Bolts, and there is a balanced Vayne.

EDIT: I would also propose to change her % max hp true damage to % bonus HP true damage. However, this might be too much of a nerf to her unless her attack speed is not changed.

360D3GR3SSJul 27, 20154 votes

Lol and you made here the worst ADC by doing that. Her percent true damage is fine, it takes 3 hits and with those 3 hits she must AUTO ATTACK YOU, meaning thornmail and frozen heart shut her down extremely hard.

GorgiolioJul 27, 201517 votes

Not against a devourer vayne :')

360D3GR3SSJul 27, 20152 votes

Which isn't a thing.

lB2kGRlc8yJul 27, 201527 votes

Then I must have imagined those 5 games in teambuilder with devourer vayne. Thanks for clearing that up.

I Miss CannonJul 27, 20155 votes

yeah, NA teambuilder is full of bronze V people with 20 cs at 10 minutes. no wonder. even ad nami works there.

Rinky DinkyJul 27, 201526 votes

What does that make EUW Teambuilder? Salt V?

CubedJusticeJul 28, 20155 votes

"So, I just finished my placements, and got put in EUW..." "Sorry about that, man. Might as well make a new account."

outrangedJul 28, 20151 votes

You can run literally anything in normals and still have a fair chance of a win.

Back before Vayne was considered "OP", I won games with AP and Jungle Vayne. (she has absolutely no AP ratios)

You shouldn't use a non-competitive environment as a basis for anything.

lB2kGRlc8yJul 28, 20151 votes

Not necessarily, non ranked isn't non competitive, it just doesn't reward you with points on a leaderboard. Also ranked is a cesspool of trolls, so games can actually require more skill in some circumstances. I'm completely unranked, and have beaten teams with multiple diamonds and even been matched against masters, so don't try to pull the flimsy skill level argument. Even if non ranked isn't ranked, there's still a method in place to match up players with people of their skill level, so running obscene strategies like full ad soraka and winning just says you're against baddies, not that everyone else in non ranked is.

VentiraJul 27, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Lol and you made here the worst ADC by doing that. Her percent true damage is fine, it takes 3 hits and with those 3 hits she must AUTO ATTACK YOU, meaning thornmail and frozen heart shut her down extremely hard.

Man, a 300 armor, FH, Randuin's and Thornmail equipped Malphite just died in <5 seconds to a vayne.

There is no shutting down a Vayne's damage. There really isn't.

O Fallen ScholarJul 27, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Man, a 300 armor, FH, Randuin's and Thornmail equipped Malphite just died in <5 seconds to a vayne.

There is no shutting down a Vayne's damage. There really isn't.

Then blame the Malphite who missed the ultimate.

VentiraJul 27, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Then blame the Malphite who missed the ultimate.

What if I told you he landed his ultimate?

EvilRabbittJul 27, 20154 votes

I'd ask why he didn't follow up. And why he engaged as a full tank into an adc who was in her late game, and notoriously powerful for it? And why he didn't send an assassin on her instead of himself?

OwlMechanicJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What if I told you he landed his ultimate?

I'd have trouble believing this went down the way you described, Malph's E (which he ALWAYS follows the ultimate with) is the most massive vayne counter in the game next to nasus, between that and frozen heart her attacks are going to be snailing into him at far too little time for her passive to even make a bit of difference.

Kuroi86Jul 27, 20152 votes

Tumble resets Vaynes auto attack and Condemn has no cast time. Auto, condemn, tumble, auto. Malphites E slow only lasts 3 seconds, after that her attack speed goes back to normal. I think he's exaggerating how quickly the Malphite fell, but it's no exaggeration that at full build Vayne can burn through a tank pretty quickly, it's largely how her kit is designed to work. It also doesn't help that Malphite lacks killing potential against full health enemies.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 28, 20151 votes

AA->tumble->condemn, oh no malphite just lost 15% of his HP and well his AA slow has finished

doombotMECHAJul 27, 20152 votes

the problem isn't the tru damage. it's that every ad carry has access to enough arpen to invalidate a tank's armor.

Kuroi86Jul 27, 20151 votes

Um... no it doesn't. Most ADC only get item 3035 which negates 35% of a tanks armor. However, at just 155 armor, a tank still has 100 armor even with negating 35% of it.

Your average tank has between 23 to 80 armor based on lvl. item 3068 45 ar item 3143 70 ar item 3075 100 ar item 3110 100 ar item 3025 60 ar item 3047 25 ar and blocks 10% damage from basic attacks item 3512 60 ar

Pick one, pick two, even after the ADC gets item 3035 you will still be cutting their auto attacks in half. Heck, maybe even more if you get item 3047 and Reinforced Armor on top of item 3143

Hellish ProphecyJul 27, 20151 votes

Oh, come on. Be fucking realistic.....

If a Malph truly did have those 3 items he has around 400-500 armor. Not 300.

VentiraJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh, come on. Be fucking realistic.....

If a Malph truly did have those 3 items he has around 400-500 armor. Not 300.

Not accounting for base and (his old) W active, those three items amount to 280 armor. Which is by no means a small amount. The fact that, accounting for base armor, and his W, Malphite has a crazy high amount of armor that Vayne still tears right through with minimal effort is a problem.

Psi21Jul 28, 20151 votes

You know if Riot never ridiculous pumped tanks to the strengths they are now. We wouldn't be seeing players and Riot's means of Band-Aiding them.

Players just as in 2010 used Kog to deal with tanky dps. Take it from a player who played from beta who has watched it all.

Later as Riot was repairing their faults about tankie dps adding Madred and DFG and later Vayne we saw this more in 2011.

Leaving in those items to deal with Tanky dps was just fine and ...

Finally Tanky DPS was some what under control.

But starting this year 2015 we have Riot balancing team (new perhaps) learning nothing from the past. They introduced a new armor that provided both form of resists and cinderhulk. Changes to mages... They show no understanding of balance.

And now just as we have in 2010-11 the player and Riot are adapting.

It would be silly for Riot balancing team to admit they F'ed up.

But whats done is done. We all know a lot of things really should be rolled back. The failures have been mounting up.

Salvaging well what they have done.... they keep trying...

It is really too bad. A company that never learns from the mistakes of the past. Doubles down on the wrong process. At least we see some of those companies being fixed finally. Comcast comes to mind.

Looking forward to Spike.

SaiannaJul 27, 20156 votes

Imo that threat was just a joke, I've seen few other similar threats about Riven, Riven and Riven :P

Major issue with Vayne is her passive % max hp true damage, as it should deal higher damage against tanks than squishes, yet it works otherwise.

Change that, and she'll be back in right spot imo :)

YumaS2AstralJul 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Imo that threat was just a joke, I've seen few other similar threats about Riven, Riven and Riven :P

Major issue with Vayne is her passive % max hp true damage, as it should deal higher damage against tanks than squishes, yet it works otherwise.

Change that, and she'll be back in right spot imo :)

The problem is that % max hp true damage is as effective against squishies than against tanks. However it also has a flat true damage component. Not to mention, Vayne still has her normal auto-attacks, as well as Blade of the Ruined King passive. So basically she ends up murdering squishies while killing tanks. And squishies will actually die faster tanks because they are, well... squishies.

SeenanJul 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that % max hp true damage is as effective against squishies than against tanks. However it also has a flat true damage component. Not to mention, Vayne still has her normal auto-attacks, as well as Blade of the Ruined King passive. So basically she ends up murdering squishies while killing tanks. And squishies will actually die faster tanks because they are, well... squishies.

Not to mention how she lifesteals it all back because..well..bork.

(I'm not sure if the true damage portion gets absorbed too as lifesteal, but if it does, then that's just too broken.)

Delete her max hp%, make it current hp magic damage or something, so she's actually in-line with other adcs.

Sightless66Jul 27, 20152 votes

No, then she sucks hard.

%health true damage is fine on her kit. It gives her a tankbusting mechanic that isn't more effective against squishies the way that %health physical or magical damage tends to be. The flat true damage on it could arguably be lowered to decrease her effectiveness against squishes, but there is nothing wrong with her the % value. It's a good mechanic for fulfilling her role, and she does have kit weaknesses to make up for it (she's a bit too strong right now, but it can't be denied that she does lack a lot of things other AD carries have, and those absences can be exploited against her).

Yes, I know you can't build to directly counter it. No, that isn't a problem. You can still build against the majority of her damage with armor. You can build against all of her damage with attack speed slows. You can counter Vayne with actual counter play instead of just counter building, and counter play is by far the more important trait to have.

Also, to answer your question, the true damage does not proc lifesteal. It's an ability effect, not on-hit damage, so lifesteal won't apply to it. As a general rule, lifesteal only applies to autoattacks and physical on-hit effects unless otherwise noted.

MalzaharAnyLaneJul 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Also, to answer your question, the true damage does not proc lifesteal. It's an ability effect, not on-hit damage, so lifesteal won't apply to it. As a general rule, lifesteal only applies to autoattacks and physical on-hit effects unless otherwise noted.

Incorrect.

Test it on dragon sometime.

AnidanJul 27, 20156 votes

If you replace her max hp% with magic damage, you'd better be ready for some numbers buffs because Kog'maw does magic %hp damage... but 6% PER HIT, as opposed to 8% + base every 3 as it is for Vayne.

Just doing a straight damage-type shift and no other buffs would literally gut her - she is balanced around Silver Bolts - Silver Bolts is the main part of her identity. Vayne busts tanks, period.

Plus, if you make it into magic damage then you, again, make it more effective against squishies who aren't going to be building much magic resistance as compared to a tank who will have at least 150-175.

LionelLeonJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you replace her max hp% with magic damage, you'd better be ready for some numbers buffs because Kog'maw does magic %hp damage... but 6% PER HIT, as opposed to 8% + base every 3 as it is for Vayne.

Just doing a straight damage-type shift and no other buffs would literally gut her - she is balanced around Silver Bolts - Silver Bolts is the main part of her identity. Vayne busts tanks, period.

Plus, if you make it into magic damage then you, again, make it more effective against squishies who aren't going to be building much magic resistance as compared to a tank who will have at least 150-175.

Changing it to magic damage will make it hell to itemize against her

ShinobisDemonJul 27, 20156 votes

While I don't think she is OP to begin with because she can be zoned and has a high skill cap like yasuo. IF we needed a fair buff on her, we could get rid of her true damage on silver darts. IF this was done she would be considered as bad as quinn and would have to be played top lane to squash tanks because that would be all she can do. I honestly don't think that vayne is that OP, speaking of OP teemo is getting buffed.

TEEMO IS GETTING BUFFED...

I Think champs need to be nerfed before vayne is even considered, Zed feels like he is in a good place right now. I don't know about leblanc because I suck at her lol. Ekko doesn't feel toooooo OP anymore. Fizz is annoying by nature but I don't think he is that OP anymore. blitz hitbox on Q could be a little more accurate. They can lower the scaling on Yi true damage (e). Oh and if you guys want riven nerfed make animation canceling either impossible or time limited (can't animation cancel more than once in ((.33 miliseconds?))

MohawkBirdJul 27, 20153 votes

[deleted]

HensetsuJul 27, 20153 votes

Most champions complained about are hard to play though these days. People hate on Riven but very few can play her.

It's also annoying when people say things such as "Oh you main the champion that's why you feel like they're balanced". Almost as if knowing a champion inside and out means that now you know less about your champion than people who play against it without your level of knowledge.

Commonly complained about champions:

Vayne Riven Fizz Azir Irelia Zed LeeSin

There are a few exceptions (Irelia is alright) but the trend is clear, these are hard champions that are very rewarding when played well, but most people don't know what to do when these champions are played well and thus bring out the pitchforks and rant about how horrid these guys are.

Have you never played with an 0/10 vayne? 0/10 riven? 0/10 zed? They're bloody useless.

TheI3igDaddyJul 28, 20151 votes

Yeah, that little sidenote in parentheses saved me from straight up saying YOU THINK IRELIA IS HARD?!?

GodarenJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

While I don't think she is OP to begin with because she can be zoned and has a high skill cap like yasuo. IF we needed a fair buff on her, we could get rid of her true damage on silver darts. IF this was done she would be considered as bad as quinn and would have to be played top lane to squash tanks because that would be all she can do. I honestly don't think that vayne is that OP, speaking of OP teemo is getting buffed.

TEEMO IS GETTING BUFFED...

I Think champs need to be nerfed before vayne is even considered, Zed feels like he is in a good place right now. I don't know about leblanc because I suck at her lol. Ekko doesn't feel toooooo OP anymore. Fizz is annoying by nature but I don't think he is that OP anymore. blitz hitbox on Q could be a little more accurate. They can lower the scaling on Yi true damage (e). Oh and if you guys want riven nerfed make animation canceling either impossible or time limited (can't animation cancel more than once in ((.33 miliseconds?))

zed and leblanc are not op right now or even close, yi i can agree with you on tho

IamawalrusJul 27, 20153 votes

Am I missing something? What reason is there to nerf Vayne over say Jinx?

YumaS2AstralJul 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Am I missing something? What reason is there to nerf Vayne over say Jinx?

Jinx is nowhere nearly as mobile as Vayne and does not have true damage based on the enemy's max health, not to mention, Jinx's attack speed gain per level does not even come close to how much attack speed Vayne gains per level.

The LexerJul 27, 20153 votes

Yet they get the most upvotes....

Curling VeigarJul 27, 20153 votes

thats why i highlight the thread and read what it says before clicking it

also, implying that deleting vayne is a bad thing

bradJul 27, 20152 votes

mods need to start removing shit that is "low effort" on more places than just gd

its honestly a joke

Samflash3Jul 28, 20152 votes

Relevant(Saw this post not too long ago):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmVEbNOES9E

FistOfSharkieshaJul 27, 20151 votes

It doesn't make any sense because when I explain the issues with a particular champion such as Riven's ability to be played like an assassin with 1.5 seconds of hard CC, being resourceless, and having 4 dashes and a spammable shield, then propose a fix such as making her shield scale with AP over AD, I get downvoted and told I'm an idiot. Then a thread pops up saying delete her and it has 100 upvotes.

PledgieJul 27, 20151 votes

why tf would you build ap on riven. the best way to beat riven is to just drop some bows Garen

FistOfSharkieshaJul 28, 20151 votes

That's the point. Several AD champions have AP ratios to balanced them out. Corki, Miss Fortune, Xin Shao. They have abilities that would be overpowered if they scaled with AD. Riven's spammable resourceless shield scaling with AD is overkill.

FredartJul 28, 20151 votes

Take away her invisibility like that of twitch or eve.

VàýńéJul 28, 20151 votes

I've got Riot ShadowStorm ( Yes hes not in character design but he knows a lot of rioters) to spread the word of this thread. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Vp6drv3e-vaynes-rework-what-the-community-is-trying-to-say-meddler Post your ideas there like @Shockforce

aeVoWXYKH0Jul 28, 20151 votes

Vayne needs a nerf , no doubt about it. Unlike other adcs the only way to weaken her is buying Randuin's and Frozen Heart but it forces you to buy items you would normally not buy instead of other important items just to reduce her AS by a small amount. Mix that with only point and click skills , huge mobility , stealth and a pretty easy cc to pull off and you get cancer. People say she needs skill to kite and position correctly but that is common adc knowledge and even ranged mages use that knowledge so Vayne is not any more special . If aa resetting is that skill intensive then you should know that she is not the only one that can do that and it is learned by playing some games then it is just muscle memory. The best way to nerf her is to make her w damage physical or even magical.