It seems like since the mymu mages are not buildimg void staff and instead are building other ap items. Then they say "AP is weak and MR items are too strong and I do no damage to tanks!" when their build looks like this: Sorcerer boots Morellonomicon Banshees Zhonyas Ludens Rylais
If you want to deal damage is a mage you have to get a void staff and a deathcap. Liandrys is also very good at dealing with tanks.
DrCyanide26 votesYou want to talk about people allergic to an item?
The enemy team could have 3 or 4 champion with crazy healing, but this item won't get purchased.
kasfas1 votesI've come to the realization that I don't want people to but this as a rush even botlane against soraka or something, but by the time you have BF into Zeal item you should get the executioners. Like before you get IE, grab an executioners and its fine.
InstaPoppy3 votesIts fine as first item if you're against soraka and you have a strong early combo.
Tails90163 votes"Hey can you grab an / 
?"
"But it's not recommended."
Pls send help I want out of silver bronze
SB Arneeman6 votesVoid and Liandrys are way more common mage items than Rylais and Ludens, at least in my elo.
SwiftKitten885 votespeople rarely buy 
becuase there are so little AP THREATS that no one really bothers to get much MR.
and becuase one MR item basically shuts down any mage, they arn't really "stacking" mr which void would need to cut through
obviously if they have 2 mr item you NEED to get
but honestly when was the last game you saw anyone get TWO mr items...
Somebody Love Me16 votesTanks don't even really need MR to shut down a mage, unless the mage is super ahead. They can stack health and still render the mage useless.
Vekkna6 votesVoid staff is actually just as effective against champs stacking health as it is vs stacking MR. See:
1800 hp and 150 MR (let's say runes, Mercs and Maw). Void staff shreds 52 MR worth 945 ehp.
3200 hp and 84 MR (just scaling runes, Warmogs, and Titanic). Void staff shreds 29.4 MR worth 941 ehp.
As a next item, let's say they build a Spirit Visage.
2250 hp and 205 MR. Void staff shreds 71.75 MR worth 1614 ehp.
3650 hp and 139 MR. Void staff shreds 48.65 MR worth 1776 ehp.
So Void Staff is actually equally effective against the melee hp stacker at 0 MR items and more effective against the hp stacker with one MR item than the ad bruiser with three MR items.
EkyonKun4 votesThe big problem in your math is that the second example has SIGNIFICANTLY more effective health to begin with.
1800 x 2.50 = 4500 effective hp 3200 x 1.84 = 5888 effective hp
2250 x 3.05 = 6862.5 effective hp 3650 x 2.39 = 8723.5 effective hp
To keep this on the fair side, you need to have the effective hp be equal for both examples. These are much closer ehp values:
And as for the second example:
So in the first example, you're getting rid of about 490 more of their effective health, and in the second example, you're negating about the same amount. This in mind, Void Staff does work better on high MR targets than health stacking targets. Though, I have to say i was surprised the second example didn't show more ehp shredding than the first one.
Need Gold 4 Tent1 votespeople rarely buy
obviously if they have 2 mr item you NEED to get
but honestly when was the last game you saw anyone get TWO mr items...
Invasion kappa
Very Hard Engage5 votesbecause void staff is a low damage amp, moreso than any other item in game, it has to be third item or later in order to be a cost effective buy. (even then you probably need a rab cap backing it as a second item, which is disgusting)
and as we all know, games over at 3 items anyway.
mages would buy void staff, if the base 80 AP actually meant the difference between 1 combo, or 2 combos to kill someone. but its not, at least for champs not named syndra or veigar.
so instead they would prefer to opt for additional CDR or utility stat in its place, like zhonyas. something which enables them to survive or get their second rotation off sooner.
when i look at veigar these are the only two build paths i see, someone whos supposed to deal tons of magic damage for the team.
-> 
-> 
-> 
-> 
-> -> zhonyas, sooner as needed -> flex AP item, such as banshees veil, ludens, or liandries, built when needed.
the alternative is
-> 
-> -> 
-> 
-> -> 
where i dont have the opportunity to buy void because i need to keep myself alive and not die instantly.
basically it boils down to void not being the difference between 1 shotting an adc or not, you can do it or you cant. and if you have void against a tank without rab cap you're still not getting the job done anyway. so you have to play a kite based mage to completely outplay him over a long enough time.
Yenn5 votesThe build you mentioned is bad and you'll never see it on anyone remotely good at the game.
The reason you don't see Void Staff is because games rarely go past 3 items, and it's usually not viable until 4th item, unless the enemy team has two people stacking MR against you early. Which virtually never happens.
The item itself has a shitty build path that provides no intermediate power. You're buying it to counter MR, but it doesn't give you any effects to do that until you've completed it, and most of the time, the game is going to end before you finish it, making it a terrible investment.
Tanks also usually only build one MR item, max. They also get health for free on almost every single item, so it's more effective to build a Liandry's, which coincidentally offers some intermediate penetration.
Linna Excel2 votesThe reason you don't see Void Staff is because games rarely go past 3 items, and it's usually not viable until 4th item, unless the enemy team has two people stacking MR against you early. Which virtually never happens.
This is a good point. You might see a void staff 3rd, but only if your team has a lot of magic damage and the enemy team has 2 tanks or something like that.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votes{quoted} The reason you don't see Void Staff is because games rarely go past 3 items
Are we playing the same game? I literally just had a bot match where I was building my sixth item.
Most games I have go on for at least 4 and a half items. The only times it doesn't is when it's an absolute curb stomp because we had a garbage team comp, or when we surrender for no fucking reason.
LXII1 votesMost of us can end a bot match in around 10 minutes so I'm not sure using that as a basis for argument is a good idea.. Lol
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesYou can't end a game in 10 minutes, unless it's a remake. Not even a bot match can be ended that quick. You just don't have the time to get what you need to actually take 5 turrets, an inhibitor, and the nexus.
LXII1 votesIf a team opens mid you most certainly can push to end within 10 minutes. Bots are basically an open mid.
Now I'm not saying people make a habit of tryharding bot games for 10 minute ends, but they can, and that's the point here.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesThey'd have to open mid and not push your other lanes, otherwise you'd end up losing through your other lanes.
And, yes, even that one bot in mid still can hold you back enough to prevent an easy victory.
LXII1 votesThere's a really good chance that you're just not that good at the game man..
I can solo top against both bots and still get to tier 2 within 10 minutes. This is just me pushing, if 1 or 2 others are there? Done.
Don't read this as bragging either, because it isn't. This isn't hard to do, and I don't think I'm a god because I can. I just think you have some more learning to do if you're not able to end even a bot game before you're buying 6 items.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesThat game in particular, we had two noobs and a bot. So that kinda fed into that. And the other part was I was kinda dicking around. It was also only at 33 minutes we won, I just had that many items because I had a fuckton of valuable kills and wasn't really pushing to end.
Generally, though, it still takes around 20 minutes to end. No bot match has been shorter than 17 minutes, for me...
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesYou see morello, liandry, void staff on everyone that is good at the game.
lMoonBusterl3 votesTrue, but getting MR-pen can also decrease their DPS to squishy's right?
Rins Thigh Socks10 votesTrue, but getting MR-pen can also decrease their DPS to squishy's right?
No, wtf, lol.
It's an inefficient increase in DPS to squishies but it's impossible to decrease DPS after buying damage.
hhaavviikk3 votes[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmoeUW31,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-09-21T14:38:19.287+0000)
No, wtf, lol.
It's an inefficient decrease in DPS to squishies but it's impossible to decrease DPS after buying damage.
in a meta where games end quickly you don't want to buy an item like that
FireDrizzle4 votesTrue, but getting MR-pen can also decrease their DPS to squishy's right?
Void staff is cheap and it reduces base mr, so I don't think so.
It Hertz When IP2 votesEspecially with a bunch of champions now gaining MR/level.
RocketRelm1 votesRead: All champions.
It Hertz When IP1 votesThat is correct; I misspoke.
TotalJerk1 votesRemember old Last Whisper? The short answer is no.
Kloqdq3 votesHonestly Void Staff is one of the best AP items right now. No reason to not buy it after Morello or another Mana item.
YerroFever3 votesI think the current state of the game makes it less worth buying large pen items due to the price tag of it and the length of the game.
Most mages buy a big ticket AP item like Rabadon's, Morellos, Luden's, etc... and then they finish their boots. By the time you get your second full item, the game is close to being over.
Because of how pen is calculated and MR reduces damage, it's always better to get damage before getting pen.
So, by the time you have enough gold to buy a Void Staff, the game is basically over so the best bet is that you get enough damage to kill their squishies that don't typically buy MR vs the tanks that bought MR because the ADC can kill their tank but the mage most likely won't be able to kill their tank.
When games drag out for like the hour mark, yeah I definitely see lots of void staves because that's the only way to stay relevant when ADC's get MR items.
Eedat4 votesBut Void is very good even for killing squishies....
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesVoid is broken and people don't even realise it and even argue against it. It equals 80 AP and 35% damage increase everytime you buy it against any enemy. Even better against squishies due to how flat/% pen works.
WorksAtAGayBar2 votesIf their squishies have 30 MR I'm not getting void staff for a while. If they are mostly tanks I prefer rylais+liandrys.
Miraweave4 votesEvery champion in the game has scaling MR now.
You should be buying void staff almost every game.
WorksAtAGayBar1 votesScaling MR that goes up to 39 I believe lol. Still, I usually end up having to get it just because people are smart and tend to buy one of many MR options.
WoonStruck2 votesYou have 30 base, plus 12 flat from runes usually, plus any levels/itemization/masteries.
You only get 44 flat pen without using Quints/blues. 64 with.
If they DON'T buy MR, and use scaling MR blues, they'll end up with 80 MR (53 base+27 runes)
36 MR is still 26.5% reduction. With void staff that instead is only 8 MR. 8 MR is only 7.4% reduction.
That's a 21% increase in damage.
Its even greater if they have more than 80 MR, which can happen with or without any MR runes at all and an MR item.
You should pretty much always be buying void staff unless there are absolutely NO MR items and nobody has 80+ MR.
Its gold-efficient at 68 MR, which any melee with flat MR runes will get automatically.
Primaquarius2 votesWait, some people dont have Liandrys in their build?
Bionic Jellyfish1 votes[{quoted}](name=Primaquarius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmoeUW31,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2 017-09-21T15:11:27.412+0000)
Wait, some people dont have Liandrys in their build?
AP Assassins (
) don't, they rely on burst and liandry's effect (which is %hp burn) has no effect at all.
Devilreaper XIII2 votesbecause void staff is against tanks O.O
so unless you play vs tanks its best to go liandry + rylai. UNLESS you build your mastery tree specific on using voidstaff.
sorc shoes and liandry don't match well with voidstaff at all, the formula to calculate damage done goes as followed :
base damage times OLD armor/mr divided through a hundred plus NEW armor/mr = damage done.
lets say you have 30 flat pen and 200 ap and they have 100 mr
first without pen = 200 X (100 / 100 + 100) = 100 damage
with 30 pen = 200 X (100 / 100 + (100 - 30) 70 = 118 damage
now lets take 35% penetration 100 / 100 * 35% = 65 penetration thats : 200 X (100 / 100 + (100 - 65) 35 = 148 damage
now lets combine them : 100 - 30 flat pen = 70 which means 70 - 35% = 45,5 penetration 200 X (100 / 100 + (100 - 45,5) 54,5 = 129,45 damage
noticed how flat pen ruins percentage pen ?
use percentage penetration against 90+ mr anything below that level of magic resist, will be torn better by flat pen, unless you can exceed the 35% with runes O.O.
most players will keep their champion around 80 mr to avoid void staff, only real mr tanks will go over 80 mr, truth is void staff just doesn't give the same stats as liandry does with ap, and it can double the health damage AND slow down champions with rylai.
though liandry/sorc shoes/rylai are less effective vs squishies than they are vs health tanks due to the health burn :P but it still packs a heavy punch vs low mr champions.
so if tanks/champions are <90 mr go liandry sorc and rylai if they have 90> mr go void staff ^^
just keep your masteries in mind .-.
WoonStruck1 votes% pen is calculated before flat pen. (MR * %) - flat
35 % pen is only 35 pen out of 100...not 65.
The actual results are
base 100
flat pen only 118
% pen only 121
% and flat pen 148
Devilreaper XIII1 votes% pen is calculated before flat pen. (MR * %) - flat
35 % pen is only 35 pen out of 100...not 65.
The actual results are
base 100
flat pen 118
% pen 121
% and flat pen 148
no first flat reduction second percentage reduction third flat pen fourth percentage pen in that order.
WoonStruck2 votesMagic resistance reduction, flat. Magic resistance reduction, percentage. Magic penetration, percentage. Magic penetration, flat.
Its been that way since season 3.
YerroFever1 votesMagic resistance reduction, flat. Magic resistance reduction, percentage. Magic penetration, percentage. Magic penetration, flat.
Its been that way since season 3.
The above poster is correct.
If anyone needs to double check it, look up patch 1.0.0.152 where Void Staff used to be 40% rather than the current 35%. In patch 1.0.0.152, they reduced it to 35% and then changed the formula of how penetration worked and then % worked before flat.
There was a red post in the old forums confirming this formula when the change happened.
HeresyHorus2 votesOver the past seasons Riot has been systematically nerfing tAP available for Burst Mages ( DpS Mages suffered greatly from this too but much less than Burst ones cuz they are not as restricted by CDs as them ) by nerfing ( and removing ) their items and kits.
While in the same time they were systematically buffing eHP for other classes ( mainly squishies, the guys burst Mages supposed to counter ) by buffing HP and MR runes, buffing base HP and its growth, giving ranged champs MR growth, buffing lifesteal, buffing MR items, added flat damage reduction items ( 
).
What did all those nerfs and buffs do ?
Well ... it allowed squishies to have just 1 MR item to effectively counter whatever u are building from early to mid game.
The enemy has rushed 
for example and as a Mage u have 2 options :
Rush MPen items to counter his already high MR ( Item + Base MR and its growth + Runes ) but it will not work as u dont have enough damage cuz of all those tAP and kits nerfs + all those HP buffs to HP runes, base HP and growth for champs, lifesteal ( warlord ) and shields ( in this case ).
Rush AP items to counter his eHP with big raw damage but it will not work cuz again tAP nerfs to items and kits + he already have pretty high MR ( Item + Base MR and its growth + Runes ) that will negate most of ur damage anyway.
is given as an example but this apply to all MR items and apply to rushes.
So in the end 1 MR item will render most Burst Mages useless cuz they will not be able to burst anyone no matter what they buy from early to mid game, unless they have 4 damage skills + great base damages + great kit scalings ( 
) but they will always get complained about by players and always get nerfed when that happens.
ReySolomon2 votesI always get Liandrys/Voidstaff due to the MR/tanks nowadays.
ZapMyHeart2 votesI always get Liandrys/Voidstaff due to the MR/tanks nowadays.
The Triforce for Mages - 
And you still can't one shot anyone.
[sg-janna]
ReySolomon1 votesThe Triforce for Mages -
And you still can't one shot anyone.
[sg-janna]
I know right meanwhile just having a duskblade you can one-shot anybody!
Devilreaper XIII1 votesThe Triforce for Mages -
And you still can't one shot anyone.
[sg-janna]
flat penetration is calculated before percentage! so that build having these 3 items is very ineffective .-. like i already explained before^^
[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cmoeUW31,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2017-09-21T16:40:34.200+0000)
because void staff is against tanks O.O
so unless you play vs tanks its best to go liandry + rylai. UNLESS you build your mastery tree specific on using voidstaff.
sorc shoes and liandry don't match well with voidstaff at all, the formula to calculate damage done goes as followed :
base damage times OLD armor/mr divided through a hundred plus NEW armor/mr = damage done.
lets say you have 30 flat pen and 200 ap and they have 100 mr
first without pen = 200 X (100 / 100 + 100) = 100 damage
with 30 pen = 200 X (100 / 100 + (100 - 30) 70 = 118 damage
now lets take 35% penetration 100 / 100 * 35% = 65 penetration thats : 200 X (100 / 100 + (100 - 65) 35 = 148 damage
now lets combine them : 100 - 30 flat pen = 70 which means 70 - 35% = 45,5 penetration 200 X (100 / 100 + (100 - 45,5) 54,5 = 129,45 damage
noticed how flat pen ruins percentage pen ?
use percentage penetration against 90+ mr anything below that level of magic resist, will be torn better by flat pen, unless you can exceed the 35% with runes O.O.
most players will keep their champion around 80 mr to avoid void staff, only real mr tanks will go over 80 mr, truth is void staff just doesn't give the same stats as liandry does with ap, and it can double the health damage AND slow down champions with rylai.
though liandry/sorc shoes/rylai are less effective vs squishies than they are vs health tanks due to the health burn :P but it still packs a heavy punch vs low mr champions.
so if tanks/champions are <90 mr go liandry sorc and rylai if they have 90> mr go void staff ^^
just keep your masteries in mind .-.
Rathar Dashing2 votesRylais
Someone still builds that?
