Part of the reason ADCs are so "strong" is that defensive tools across the board are too strong.

TotalJerk·Oct 23, 2017·28 votes·2,243 views

If you wanna get to the ADC nowadays you have to wear down the unkillable Cho'Gath/Maokai that can't be focused because of Stoneplate, and can't be sieged out of lane because of Warmog's. Once you get around that the ADC gets a Galio ult, Lulu ult, Shen ult, Locket, Redemption, Mikaels, Knight's Vow, etc.

It's getting incredibly frustrating to watch teamfight after teamfight at worlds this year where both teams completely fail to get a kill off of a flawless initiation and some players even manage to come out healthier than when the fight started somehow. The game has reached the point where you aren't fighting to kill, but fighting to burn through all of the enemy team's excessive defensive tools first.

This is why damage records keep getting broken by ADCs this year at Worlds; it takes a fuckton of sustained damage to actually kill something in this meta.

69 Comments

48983507DEL1Oct 23, 201716 votes

It's funny how people go back and forth on this.

"Tanks are too weak! Please buff armor items and give us actual options!"

"Wow, I can't get past these tanks because they're too hard to kill! Please nerf the items for these boring characters!"

Pentium2Oct 23, 20177 votes

Also this "adc meta" is only because tanks are overwhelming, so I would rather call it tank meta.

IcyPepperOct 23, 20175 votes

Can you play a tank bot lane in the non-support position?

Pentium2Oct 23, 20179 votes

I think you have a bit of confusion with the concept of "meta".

Botlane consisting of an adc and a support does not mean it is adc meta.

Everyone picking big ass tanks for top and jungle however is something that tends to happen when there is a tank meta.

LordGeovanniOct 25, 20172 votes

Actually adcs Being perma stuck bot lane is an indicator that the game is always in an adc meta and tanks being picked in every other role not because they are tanky or because they do damage but because they disrupt any one who would disrupt or kill their adc and supports only existing to sheild and buff adc attack speed is also an indicator of an adc meta beyond the perma adc meta that is ever present.

AirKingNeoOct 23, 20171 votes

Can you play a marksmen top lane as a non tank?

IcyPepperOct 23, 20171 votes

Depends on the meta at time, admittedly. Right now the three most popular top laners seem to be Riven, Yasuo, and Fiora, but I don't think they're necessarily tanks.

Dextix LTOct 24, 20173 votes

Yes...... That has happened a LOT.

AirKingNeoOct 24, 20171 votes

When? Vayne in bronze elo? The failure and tragedy of Huni's Lucian top?

Dextix LTOct 24, 20171 votes

Where have you been this past year? Under a rock? Top lane has seen many marksmen there, from vayne to quinn. Or maybe you forgot graves time of terror?

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20171 votes

Quinn nor Graves are marksmen nor fit the definitions.

Dextix LTOct 25, 20171 votes

Ah well of course, if you are going to change definitions to fit your narative then by YOUR definitions marksmen are not and have not been played top.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20171 votes

I'm not. Just look at marksmen and tell me how are Quinn and Graves related to their playstyle?

Quinn speeds across the map assassinating people. Graves is a close range kiter who cannot eve do sustained damage but deals burst damage.

How is that within: "Spellweaving, backline auto attackers" or "High speed, backline auto attackers"?

Dextix LTOct 25, 20171 votes

Just like there are several types of mages, there are also several types of marksmen. Not every mage/marksman does the same thing or share the same kits.

You also ignore that both of these marksmen were being played top even before the changes that they got.

DurzakaOct 24, 20173 votes

what tanks outside of Maokai, Sej and Galio are actually strong right now?

And don't say Cho, as he might be tanky, but he isnt classified as a tank.

SnakDatSmilesBakOct 25, 20171 votes

I think it's fair to call cho a tank. He might not be a malphite or rammus but he has some cc and a whole lot of tankiness. Plus, his playstyle is similar to a tank.

DurzakaOct 25, 20171 votes

Already had the conversation in another thread. While players view him as a tank, Riot views him as a Unique Playstyle, and is not balancing him with Vanguards or other tanks in mind.

ProfDrDeathOct 23, 20172 votes

One of the big meta issues right now stems from the tank update, in fact.

In that update, defensive items were changed to put more of their power into resistances and less into HP. Not a bad thing - except that, at the same time, the tools to deal with said resistances (or, more specifically, Armor) were nerfed rather harshly:

and went from 45% bonus Armor penetration to 35% bArPen
went from 30% ArRed to 24% ArRed

The latter nerf is, to a good part, responsible for the loss of power of the AD top laners.

And the former contributes to the prevalence of the hypercarries - just compared the difference of adding a Mortal Reminder or a Firecannon to an ADC's two-item build ( item 3031 item 3087 , 180 AD, 1.52 AS of .656 base AS ) pre- and post 7.9, against a target with 80 base Armor (level 14-16 beefy melee) and Deadman's/Sunfire (100/120 Armor + 9 from runes + 6 from masteries):

Pre 7.9:

MR: 251.5 DPS FC: 230.9 DPS Difference: 20.6 DPS in favor of MR

Post 7.9:

MR: 228.5 FC: 216.2 Difference: 12.3 DPS in favor of MR - the difference is only 60% compared to above. Also note that the damage to HP is reduced to 91% with MR, but only to 94% with FC.

And that is only refering to the raw DPS without accounting for the buffed Firecannon granting 25% faster stacking.

AirKingNeoOct 23, 20171 votes

Cleaver shouldn't have been nerfed, and LDR's +20% bonus damage for a 1000 HP difference is both insane and should be nerfed to 15% bonus damage for a 2500 HP difference.

The steam lifeOct 23, 20171 votes

That would just make tanks stronger like???

AirKingNeoOct 24, 20171 votes

Woops, forgot to say nerf tanks aswell.

My change is more of the "stop fucking over bruisers" thing.

AirKingNeoOct 23, 20172 votes

That's because the boards are unironically beyond stupid.

SnakDatSmilesBakOct 25, 20171 votes

We are meta-stupid

Jet SettOct 23, 20172 votes

Well the big issue is that tanks are providing defensive utility to ADC's now as well with Gargoyle+Locket and Knight's Vow being more effective since they can afford to build more health faster in positions like top and jungle.

DurzakaOct 24, 20171 votes

Tanks being weak is not the same as defensive tools being weak.

Tanks can have very strong peel, but still feel like garbage to play and lane with in solo Q, but as long as the peel is strong, pros will play them because they just farm waiting for their opportunity.

On a separate note, tanks arent the only class that has CC cough janna/lulu cough

Sire HippingtonOct 24, 20171 votes

Most people have a hard time ti iffer between tanks and tankiness. Tanks hardly ever were in a bad spot because they actually don't rely on tankiness that much, they go in, drop their CC and some burst, and then they're good.

It's fighters that really need tankiness, they have to stay in the fight and stick to targets to do something, and fighters right now are in the worst spot ever, mpostly because tankiness still is bad. People wanted better tank items, more overall tankiness, but what we got was slightly nerfed tankiness with a 4sec mega tank mode as compensation that only works well for CC bots but not for damage focused champs as it comes with dealing 60% reduced damage. On top of that, we get powerfull support tools that help to keep ranged squishys alive, and fuck tons of CC on every tank that make it impossible for non tank melees to funktion in teamifghts, while adc still shred through anything in no time once the short lived defensive boosts run out.

So what we got were conditionally tankier tanks, tankier adc and the same if not more damage from the well protected adc vs every non tank...

I Main SwainOct 24, 20177 votes

it kind of annoys me that tanks have lost a bunch of their tanking power in exchange for supporting power. it killed me to watch worlds and see sejuani rush locket and knights right after her jungle item. i dont mind there being some stuff but its ridiculous that its more effective to either build as a support or as a bruiser than to build as a pure tank (not to mention they turned GA and banshees into damage specific carry items which im still pissed af about)

DuskDaUmbreonOct 24, 20171 votes

Banshee's became a mage item because it was useless for tanks. You don't need a one-shot spell shield if you're a tank.

And - let's be honest. If a tank isn't peeling for his team, what is he doing? Seriously? What is the purpose of a tank? Juggernauts have a clear purpose: Be durable as fuck and deal a lot of damage. Tanks are meant to be durable as fuck and peel like crazy. Without the peel (which is the "supporting power" you notice), a tank has no reason to be picked over a juggernaut, as they do less damage to everything, they have no real reason to be focused (besides just being there) - meaning all those stats mean nothing, you have no real pushing power (besides a possible item 3748 ), you have low damage to structures, (generally) can't do anything special against camps...

A tank's only as good as his peel (which includes innate CC and utility). Without that, you have a lot of stats, and nothing to do with them. Sure, you get to survive burst, but then nobody cares, because you can't do anything but hit them with a wet noodle.

LightIsMyPathOct 24, 20171 votes

This is true but they should peel through their abilities not by giving passive % damage reduction through knight's vow

Automated RivenOct 24, 20171 votes

Also knights vow is a great source of sustain for tanks as well.

I Main SwainOct 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Banshee's became a mage item because it was useless for tanks. You don't need a one-shot spell shield if you're a tank.

And - let's be honest. If a tank isn't peeling for his team, what is he doing? Seriously? What is the purpose of a tank? Juggernauts have a clear purpose: Be durable as fuck and deal a lot of damage. Tanks are meant to be durable as fuck and peel like crazy. Without the peel (which is the "supporting power" you notice), a tank has no reason to be picked over a juggernaut, as they do less damage to everything, they have no real reason to be focused (besides just being there) - meaning all those stats mean nothing, you have no real pushing power (besides a possible ), you have low damage to structures, (generally) can't do anything special against camps...

A tank's only as good as his peel (which includes innate CC and utility). Without that, you have a lot of stats, and nothing to do with them. Sure, you get to survive burst, but then nobody cares, because you can't do anything but hit them with a wet noodle.

how was it useless for tanks? i found it incredibly useful. when i would play Sejuani i would build it all the time because of the high amount of mr and solid hp it gave along with the fact that with the spell shield i could absorb a cc ability that would otherwise be a huge problem for me like Lulu polymorph Tristana ult Veigar stun.

idk why youre talking about peeling because i never mentioned it at all. i also dont understand why youre talking about stats and kits when i was talking about itemization.

tommyagunOct 23, 20176 votes

that and crit items are dirt cheap for their effects

ChargeItDownMidOct 23, 20175 votes

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RexxieeOct 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

There are two aspects of the problem which people are often confusing.

marksmen are inherently too strong because they do not give up enough for their ability to safely seige from range. This is why marksmen have been the only archetype which every team has needed for the past 7 seasons. Riot needs to give marksmen nerfs across the board to put them on par with other archetypes.

marksmen currently are even stronger compared to their previous overpowered state. This is due to the meta which further accentuates the power difference between a marksmen and another archetype. This problem can be fixed without nerfing marksmen.

Things like ardent censor make marksmen more problematic than they were in the past but we have to remember that marksmen were still a problem before ardent.

Before ardent adcs were the worst class in the game, nice joke.

Dasdi96Oct 23, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Before ardent adcs were the worst class in the game, nice joke.

Before ardent adcs actually had to position properly in teamfights and kite properly.

MetalGearTeemoOct 23, 20174 votes

so bad they've been required in every meta and every team since the games inception :^)

AirKingNeoOct 23, 20172 votes

As I've already stated:

Really? So you have no complaints as to why we've always needed a burst class midlane, a tanky top laner, or a peeling/zoning support? It's the same thing; Riot, for whatever reason, hasn't separated Marksmen into subclasses to shut people like you up.

azrolatorOct 24, 20174 votes

Except we have seen many times that the top lane goes to squishy carries like quinn, yas, yi, vayne, etc. And Morgana used to go mid until riot nerfed her w to try to force her into support. Sometimes we have seen apcs replace sups on bot like Brand. You haven't been playing long if you think we always needed those roles, because that isn't how it has always been.

AirKingNeoOct 23, 20172 votes

This is why marksmen have been the only archetype which every team has needed for the past 7 seasons.

Really? So you have no complaints as to why we've always needed a burst class midlane, a tanky top laner, or a peeling/zoning support? It's the same thing; Riot, for whatever reason, hasn't separated Marksmen into subclasses to shut people like you up.

Shocker, the hypercarry ADCs are meta right now. It was the caster ADCs before.

ChargeItDownMidOct 23, 20176 votes

[deleted]

AirKingNeoOct 23, 20171 votes

Really? So we haven't has an assassin or a mage mid as a meta? When? We haven't had bruisers or tanks majority of top? When?

We've had a meta where neither enchanter nor shield supports nor Zyra was meta?

We've changed between Hypercarries and Caster marksmen. Are you unironically trying to say such a false narrative despite the game mostly having X role does Y job?

IRyzeForNidaleeOct 23, 20175 votes

Then why do I get instagibbed constantly when I try to play league?

Seriously, I can build straight tank on a bruiser but unless my kit comes with massive shields or heals or mobility or invulnerability or CC I just flat out die constantly. A single gank near my own tower will result in me getting 100-0'd within a single CC combo regularly. It's not even fun to play with this shit happening constantly. So how can defensive tools be too strong?

azrolatorOct 24, 20171 votes

The tank eq isn't strong. The support eq is strong. So you have tanks building sup items instead to shield the carry and counting on their cc to help them survive a little bit. Bruisers don't have that cc, the current eq isn't enough to protect against damage creep. ADCs can lifesteal to heal back up through damage, so the shielding on them goes farther than it does on many bruisers. I think that was the point anyway. Not the tank items, the defensive items and skills that you use to protect the adc from getting nuked out.

Sire HippingtonOct 24, 20174 votes

i don't really agree with that. If the tanks aren't ahead, they can actually be easily focused down, they only have a 4sec wondpw every 90 sec to really be tanky, and even if you can't burn through them fast, that's immo how it should be. The bigger issue is that they pack so much CC with so little downtime that it's near impossible to get past them and reach the backline, they just make it near impossible to play the game as a damage focused melee till they die. The amount off CC you average tank can spam these days is just absurd. And the biggest issue is how much effort you need to burn thoguh the dfensive tools of adc and support once you get past the fronline. The issueue is that all those defensive tools are powerfull but windowed, so anyone(usually the adc) can be protected vs burst, but sustained DPS just cuts through everything once the defense windows go down, all while the damage creep never was directly adressed so DPS is more like burst per second.

AhrisOct 23, 20173 votes

Why does adc have lifesteal when apc doesnt have spell vamp? They also have many other defensive items that just makes it unfair for othrr champ.

SasogwaOct 23, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Why does adc have lifesteal when apc doesnt have spell vamp? They also have many other defensive items that just makes it unfair for othrr champ.

Spellvamp is garbage on almost any mage that isn't Vladimir, Cassiopeia, and maybe Azir/Ryze. Most mages are bursty and not really DPS oriented making spellvamp a meh buy. WOTA wasn't removed because it was overpowered. It was removed because it only benefited very few champions and was terrible on the rest.

Slythrin UmbreonOct 23, 20177 votes

A lot of mages already have built in Defensive tools anyway, so adding healing to all of their kits is more problematic. The difference from one mage with Spellvamp to the next is pretty massive by comparison: On the one hand, Spellvamp Brand could feel pretty fair since he doesn't have much survival built into his kit. On the other hand, imagine already safer mages like Orianna or Lux healing like ADCs do... The difference between an Ashe lifestealing and a Koggles lifestealing isn't nearly as massive, even in ADC meta. Admitedly, Kalista and tristana are a little... Are pretty big exceptions, honestly. But I think people are more frustrated with their kits then their lifesteal. Before AoE autos happened, lifesteal was fairly easy to balance across all ADCs. Dunno why Riot refuses to reduce AoE lifesteal. It doesn't even have to be as much as AoE spellvamp was, but we could at least try a few numbers -shrug-

Elkington VIOct 24, 20173 votes

Defensive itemization and scaling isn't near strong enough, otherwise bruisers would be competing with tanks for the same role, when tanks are clearly superior right now. Bruisers rely on good defenses in order to live long enough to deal their damage, whereas most tanks are less item dependent and can rely solely on their utility to scale into late game.

ADCs are so strong because the classes meant to kill them have all been nerfed in one way or another.