Please Adjust Trap Mechanics So They Can't Be Placed Under Champion Hit-Boxes.

Best Ekko NA·Mar 17, 2018·42 votes·2,426 views

In general, most enemies and minions, cannot walk through you (even during GA Revive & Stasis). It's really odd how champions can place things under a champion who is already occupying that space on the map with their hit box.

---> <---

Not to mention, the way these abilities are currently designed, they have unfair (possibly even unhealthy) advantages over champions utilizing revives and stasis.

--> <--

Perhaps if it's not possible to change how traps work, give champions who are in Stasis or Revive a temporary "Trap Immunity" buff for a second after the effect has ended. Including the effects from both and .

There's really nothing skillful about throwing a Trap under an enemy who cannot move, nor is there anyway to counter play. Forcing these champions to put their traps around the enemy, making them predict where the enemy might move, demonstrates much cleaner design and allows more opportunities for champions with Traps to be outplayed.

65 Comments

CrazFight Mar 17, 201823 votes

As a person that has over 100k points on caitlyn, I can say I always found it unfair that i can just place my w under champ, so the second they get revived I can just POP them again.

CleverCactusMar 17, 20184 votes

I think it should at least have an animation like Jhin traps. Jhin traps are arguably a lesser threat than Cait traps, but his have a throwing animation whereas Cait's just... appear on the ground.

FlameHalbrdOkidoMar 17, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=CrazFight ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clE7G6qd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-17T04:43:33.643+0000)

As a person that has over 100k points on caitlyn, I can say I always found it unfair that i can just place my w under champ, so the second they get revived I can just POP them again.

i dislike that fact that Cait can just do it on any champ within range no matter what. How is an instant root combined with the other things her kit offers fair at all, it def take away from counter play and skill expression

JobriqMar 17, 20183 votes

It's not instant.... the traps take like a whole second to arm

PoskeMar 17, 20181 votes

Whenever I buy Ga / zhonya vs cait... I ask myself am I fking retarded... I knew this would happen

Just dont buy those items

LordGeovanniMar 17, 20181 votes

So you just ignore all the other champions in the game because of 1 champions power.... that isnt even supposed to be the main draw of her kit compared to her long range damage.

PoskeMar 17, 20182 votes

ehm seting up is one of her strenghts

Just dont buy those items into cait its not to complicated

LordGeovanniMar 18, 20181 votes

Setting up implies readying a zone before a fight not putting some ones else's foot in a trap while in the middle of a fight from 600 units away

AsterfixMar 17, 201811 votes

I mean it's part of the counter play to a revive. It'd be kinda one sided if characters who can revive could just get up and walk outta there with no repercussion.

0 HogapuMar 17, 20186 votes

It is one sided not being able to dodge a trap by any mean, and instantly die the only presence of caitlyn in a game makes every zhonya / GA useless u can still time your other abilities well to counter the guy who used that, but it is not fair that she can have a 100% u-die-after-u-revive rate because of a single spell that she basically can't miss

Velzard of KozMar 17, 201811 votes

If you place trap under enemy they work as delayed AoE as many of them need time to arm. Whern you go into Stasis, the whole point of its disadvantage is you being unable to move and avoid effects placed there. What is the difference between Jhin throwing trap there and Vel'Koz putting his E under you? The fact it's easier to time Jhin's trap should already be balanced in the effects.

There's really nothing skillful about throwing a Trap under an enemy who cannot move, nor is there anyway to counter play.

There's nothing skillful about pressing button to pop Zhonyas beither if there a way to counter enemy possiblx avoiding your combo this way. There's nothing skillful about Zilean pressing a button before allied champion is nearly killed in brawl. There's nothing skillful about Liss going in like Madonna then becoming invulnerable. That's why it has trade-offs. Traps have their trade-off in cooldowns, costs etc. Zhonyas and ults and passives like that have their trade-off in cost, cooldown and the stasis and the power buidget.

What you are complaining about is that someone takes advantage of trade-off of stasis that is there so that they can take the advantage. It's the point of not being able to do anythign during the time. That If you are positioned badly at the time, the enemies take advantage of it, regardless of whether Vi charges her Q before slamming onto you the moment you leave stasis, or Vel'Koz puts E under you moment before you leave stasis, or If Jhin throws trap under you while in stasis.

It forces you to actually think when you use it so that it has the very thing you think this mechanic lacks - skill expression.

HibekiMar 18, 20181 votes

Its not exclusive to stasis though, Cait can place a trap under a stun, root, slow, whatever.

RainbowIceeMar 17, 20187 votes

because if they did that traps would be 100% on the side of the victim to step on them and not on the placement of the one using them. It sucks for you if you're in stasis or revive or stunned and you fall on a trap but that's just how it should be. Other wise it will feel really dumb to use on the side of the user. "Hey! pls step on this trap, i need to make my kit work"

Spank the FoxMar 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

because if they did that traps would be 100% on the side of the victim to step on them and not on the placement of the one using them. It sucks for you if you're in stasis or revive or stunned and you fall on a trap but that's just how it should be. Other wise it will feel really dumb to use on the side of the user. "Hey! pls step on this trap, i need to make my kit work"

Exactly. And to add on, you make it incredibly shitty to use a Cait trap with other hard CC. Following up CC is a skill in league. Revive is CC, other snares/stuns/knockups too

NineTailedMysticMar 17, 20189 votes

So you place the trap(s) behind them so they have to path around them upon ending the CC/Stasis? Something that actually befitting of traps by using thought and foresight instead of just plopping down a trap on someone already immobilized?

Spank the FoxMar 17, 20182 votes

Right and instead make all CC end when another one expires to remove CC stacking lmfao.

Like Ahri’s Charm wear off after any other CC wears off because if you’re really skilled, you should time it perfectly and should feel like shit in any other scenario.

Don’t balance a game please.

NineTailedMysticMar 17, 20186 votes

I mean, yes, that is the ideal CC chain. You don't CC when they just got CC'd because you're wasting duration.

Like Ahri’s Charm wear off after any other CC wears off because if you’re really skilled, you should time it perfectly and should feel like shit in any other scenario.

Irrelevant?

Don’t balance a game please.

<<EDITED BY MODERATION>>

LordGeovanniMar 17, 20181 votes

I mean, yes, that is the ideal CC chain. You don't CC when they just got CC'd because you're wasting duration.

I very much agree with this and because of this same reasoning i was puzzled when mages players complaining on boards got CotC nerfed becuase throw all of their damage at the melee champion during their courage uptime when it has a 40+ second down time. Same thing with Camille's passive. Dont throw all your spells at her when she uses CotC at the same time as her passive because she needs E to engage and has to auto right after because of how her kit works she cant save either of them even if she wants to.

ModUlanopoMar 18, 20181 votes

Hello,

I have removed the portion of your post that violated the Boards rules against insulting other people.

If you have questions or concerns about this action please visit us in the Moderation Discord here.

~ Ulanopo

NineTailedMysticMar 18, 20181 votes

Yet he gets to be a dick because he didn't specifically say what I said?

Whatever.

ModUlanopoMar 18, 20181 votes

"Don’t balance a game please." is not a personal insult. I would have put it another way, but it doesn't merit removal.

You may notice the remainder of your post - the part that was consistent with the Boards Guidelines - is still intact.

NineTailedMysticMar 18, 20181 votes

I don't know, sure sounds like its insinuating something about my intelligence, but what do I know? I'm not a mod.

Also you could have removed the two words that were apparently "inconsistent with the board guidelines" and not the phrase that was a parallel to his.

ModUlanopoMar 18, 20181 votes

Saying that you are unqualified to balance a game (in his opinion) is not necessarily kind, but it is not the same as calling you too stupid to balance a game.

Ultimately, this was a non-productive conversation (especially when you look at the community reaction to that person's comments). Sometimes it's okay to let people be wrong, foolish or whatever on the internet.

Acheron16Mar 17, 20185 votes

God forbid invelnerability effects/items have a drawback.

If you were stupid enough to pop Zhonya's too early, you deserve the punishment, if you died and went into revive yet most of the enemy team is still barrelling down on you, then tou were either out of position or the enemy team outplayed you.

Best Ekko NAMar 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

God forbid invelnerability effects/items have a drawback.

If you were stupid enough to pop Zhonya's too early, you deserve the punishment, if you died and went into revive yet most of the enemy team is still barrelling down on you, then tou were either out of position or the enemy team outplayed you.

I'm sorry but, Aatrox has to wait between 2 and 3 minutes for his passive.. just for it to be rendered useless by low cooldown traps, which several champions can spam. It's not a matter of items having drawbacks, it's a matter of Traps being consistent and far too powerful. The smallest CC allows a champion like Caitlyn to lock you down for even longer.

Let me put this into perspective, a champion like Riven is forced to melee into enemies, just to get off her .75 second stun. A champion like Caitlyn, can stand 800 range away without a worry in the entire world, with a 100% chance to stun you for twice the length of Riven's stun.

God forbid Caitlyn's trap require any amount of skill to use.

ThePaperluckyMar 17, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clE7G6qd,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-03-17T21:11:57.614+0000)

I'm sorry but, Aatrox has to wait between 2 and 3 minutes for his passive.. just for it to be rendered useless by low cooldown traps, which several champions can spam. It's not a matter of items having drawbacks, it's a matter of Traps being consistent and far too powerful. The smallest CC allows a champion like Caitlyn to lock you down for even longer.

Let me put this into perspective, a champion like Riven is forced to melee into enemies, just to get off her .75 second stun. A champion like Caitlyn, can stand 800 range away without a worry in the entire world, with a 100% chance to stun you for twice the length of Riven's stun.

God forbid Caitlyn's trap require any amount of skill to use.

Out of the entire list of traps, only two actually immobilize, which are Caitlyn's and Jinx's. Out of those two, only Caitlyn can spam. How is it Traps' fault in general? Outside of this case, none of those traps are reliable unless you are already CCed.

Aatrox has many problems, and his vulnerability to Traps during revival is NOT the sole reason why. Even if he were immune to them during stasis, he would only be slightly better against 2 out of 140 champions. Very crucial change.

I don't understand the comparison between Riven and Cait. One is an instant AoE stun, while the other is a delayed single target root. How is that relevance to the Traps discussion?

Cait's trap is already hard to land on any enemy that isn't CCed or has some brain cells. It has a delay of 1.1 second, longer than Nami's bubble, with a tiny hitbox. Yes, it takes 1.1 seconds to arm. Let that sink in. Unless the enemy deliberately step into it, there's literally no chance she lands it without set up. Zilean's double bomb, Zoe's Sleep, Cass's Miasma is also similar in terms of effectiveness toward Stasis, so why is Traps, and speciafically Traps, the unbalance case?

Best Ekko NAMar 17, 20182 votes

Jhin's trap immobilizes, Teemo's mushroom's slow, and Shaco's boxes fear. There's only one single champion in the entire game who has a Trap that does not Crowd Control the enemy, and that is Nidalee.

Aatrox is a single example, you are just nitpicking at this point as I could literally use Anivia, Zac, Zilean, or really any champion in the entire game which uses a Zhonyas or a GA (aka: all of them).

The arm time on all of the traps means nothing, as the point of discussion is how Traps are being abused, which clearly has gone way over your head. Traps should not be allowed to be set on top of champions. They are strategic tools which are supposed to require planning and set up, not CC stackers for further locking down or damaging an already immobile champion.

Once again, Caitlyn is just one example due to how insanely powerful her Trap is. All it takes is a single crowd control or even creep block, for Caitlyn to lock you down with a Trap. It's the same for really any of the champions except Nidalee. Other champions have to take risks and time their abilities well to stack CC which isn't even nearly the same duration. If you think Riven is a poor example, then use Renekton. The enemy uses a Zhonyas, now Renekton has to walk up melee range -- possibly into 4 enemies, and time his W auto attack perfectly to achieve the same results as a Caitlyn who stands 800+ range back from any potential threats.

Also, as for your example about abilities, they are not the same even though they function similarly. You can dodge Zilean's double bomb out of Zhonyas, even if he times it perfectly. You can re-position before Zoe's bubble sleeps you, and you can still move during Cassiopeia's grounded slow. When a champion throws a Trap on top of you, there is no amount of godly reaction that will save you. Zero chance of outplay.

Acheron16Mar 17, 20183 votes

Yeah, that's called "skill" and "teamwork".

If a Morgana is waiting at near point blank for someone to revive and then shoots her Dark Binding at them, is that also abusive? If so then why, why not?

If a Fiddlesticks fears someone and then Tresh hooks that someone is that ok? Yes? Then why aren't traps that have a considerable delay on them not ok?

And btw, Jhin's traps don't imobilize you, only his W, which (shocker) is also an expression of skill.

NineTailedMysticMar 18, 20182 votes

If a Morgana is waiting at near point blank for someone to revive and then shoots her Dark Binding at them, is that also abusive? If so then why, why not?

Not as much because you can Flash out of Stasis to avoid a skillshot. You can't Flash a trap if you revive on one.

Acheron16Mar 18, 20181 votes

Flash is a "get out of jail free" card, it is the counter to many things, but I still doubt you can flash out of Morgana's Q at pointblank range.

NineTailedMysticMar 19, 20181 votes

The only time you couldn't Flash out of a skillshot out of Stasis is if its timed well enough to be on top of you when you exit Stasis which takes a lot more skill than placing a static trap on a Stasis'd champion.

Acheron16Mar 19, 20181 votes

If you are counting on Flash to get out such a situation, you got bigger problems.

NineTailedMysticMar 19, 20181 votes

Maybe, but the option is there unlike traps.

Acheron16Mar 22, 20181 votes

Look, I know you won't change your opinion, so let's just stop.

ThePaperluckyMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clE7G6qd,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-17T22:09:56.749+0000)

Jhin's trap immobilizes, Teemo's mushroom's slow, and Shaco's boxes fear. There's only one single champion in the entire game who has a Trap that does not Crowd Control the enemy, and that is Nidalee.

Aatrox is a single example, you are just nitpicking at this point as I could literally use Anivia, Zac, Zilean, or really any champion in the entire game which uses a Zhonyas or a GA (aka: all of them).

The arm time on all of the traps means nothing, as the point of discussion is how Traps are being abused, which clearly has gone way over your head. Traps should not be allowed to be set on top of champions. They are strategic tools which are supposed to require planning and set up, not CC stackers for further locking down or damaging an already immobile champion.

Once again, Caitlyn is just one example due to how insanely powerful her Trap is. All it takes is a single crowd control or even creep block, for Caitlyn to lock you down with a Trap. It's the same for really any of the champions except Nidalee. Other champions have to take risks and time their abilities well to stack CC which isn't even nearly the same duration. If you think Riven is a poor example, then use Renekton. The enemy uses a Zhonyas, now Renekton has to walk up melee range -- possibly into 4 enemies, and time his W auto attack perfectly to achieve the same results as a Caitlyn who stands 800+ range back from any potential threats.

Also, as for your example about abilities, they are not the same even though they function similarly. You can dodge Zilean's double bomb out of Zhonyas, even if he times it perfectly. You can re-position before Zoe's bubble sleeps you, and you can still move during Cassiopeia's grounded slow. When a champion throws a Trap on top of you, there is no amount of godly reaction that will save you. Zero chance of outplay.

Jhin's trap itself does not imobilized, and Shaco already have to walk close to lay his trap. It's not much farther than the range of Riven's Knockup, or renekton slice-stun-dice combo. Read my comment again: I said that out of all the traps mentioned, only two IMMOBILIZED, meaning inability to move. Sure it was my mistake not including Shaco's, but my point stands. You can still flash Jhin, Nid and Teemo's trap.

As for Aatrox, and both GA and Zhonyas, it's part of their gameplay to take into account the enemies' arsenal before diving in. Why shouldn't they be punished for diving in recklessly? Traps in this situation aren't anymore reliable than Malz's ult, or Maokai roots. Stasis is for buying time/dodging abilities; they aren't getting of jail free card.

I only mentioned the trap's arm time because you said they take no skill to use. "All it takes is one crowd control or creepblock, for Caitlyn to lock you down". You can literally switch Cailtyn out for any champion that has a CC, and the sentence would still make sense. Are they all busted then?

The risk of walking into melee range is only there when there are enemies nearby. Even if you were trapped by Cait/Jinx, if your allies are there to peel for you, it's not that different from the case of Riven and Renekton. Caitlyn might have range, but unless she can kill you with one auto she isn't going to be able to just walk up and attack for free with your allies near your revival.

Traps and Stasis' interaction has not changed for a long time, yet the problem only shows up now. Is it Traps' fault then? Or is it because of how stronger CC has become due to damage?

Best Ekko NAMar 18, 20181 votes

What do you mean the problem only shows up now? Just because I make a suggestion about it, doesn't mean the issue was never a fault in the past. There are a lot of areas in League of Legends where the game can improve. To me this is just one of them. It doesn't mean this is anything new, it's simply a suggestion that would help the QoL of the game.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you, as nothing you have said in either of your posts shows that my suggestion is unwarranted. You keep nit picking the hell out of my posts and dodging the main issue of traps and hit boxes completely.

LordGeovanniMar 17, 20181 votes

You mean like the person drawing space or surrounding you.

Emo TwinkMar 17, 20183 votes

perish [sg-jinx]

SilentBomberMar 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clE7G6qd,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-17T03:45:26.122+0000)

Perhaps if it's not possible to change how traps work, give champions who are in Stasis or Revive a temporary "Trap Immunity" buff for a second after the effect has ended. Including the effects from both and .

i do like your idea.However,it's gonna be really frustrating for anyone who faces Zilean.In teamfights you will have more difficulty to focus a champion if traps do not work in a revived champion.

TTv KoddokMar 17, 20182 votes

I second this, entirely. Cannot tell you how many times I've had my GA popped trying my hardest to nuke an enemy Zoe just to have her sleep me, one shot me, and then the enemy Caitlyn traps me from a mile away and makes some joke about a headshot for the 900th time that teamfight. z.z

IdveYsUfSKMar 17, 20181 votes

You should choose a better spot to die seriously. But traps do need a longer cast time. The most unfair one is probably cait, huge range instant cast, even though it has an long arm time it isnt really fair.

Acheron16Mar 17, 20183 votes

Every single trap has arming time and only Teemo's have travel time.

Devilreaper XIIIMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clE7G6qd,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-17T03:45:26.122+0000)

There's really nothing skillful about throwing a Trap under an enemy who cannot move, nor is there anyway to counter play. Forcing these champions to put their traps around the enemy, making them predict where the enemy might move, demonstrates much cleaner design and allows more opportunities for champions with Traps to be outplayed.

neither is there to activate GA or zhonya....

Best Ekko NAMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clE7G6qd,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-03-17T21:50:51.494+0000)

neither is there to activate GA or zhonya....

Umm, you cannot activate Zhonyas under crowd control and it also requires a good sense of timing to know when to use it. To say using Zhonyas requires no skill is some utter non sense. Guardian Angel has a 5 minute cooldown, and is not a cost effective item when the passive is not up.

Sure, you can say GA is an item which requires no skill from the user, but the fact remains that the item is an investment (which the user could have acquired better stats elsewhere out of). The active is the biggest portion of the items budget and for it to be countered by a single champion's non-ultimate ability is completely unbalanced.

Devilreaper XIIIMar 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clE7G6qd,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-03-17T22:16:05.380+0000)

Umm, you cannot activate Zhonyas under crowd control and it also requires a good sense of timing to know when to use it. To say using Zhonyas requires no skill is some utter non sense. Guardian Angel has a 5 minute cooldown, and is not a cost effective item when the passive is not up.

Sure, you can say GA is an item which requires no skill from the user, but the fact remains that the item is an investment (which the user could have acquired better stats elsewhere out of). The active is the biggest portion of the items budget and for it to be countered by a single champion's non-ultimate ability is completely unbalanced.

its still just pressing a button.....

all of the champions you mentioned have skillshots, i think its fair you can counter zhonya/guardian angel with traps. the fact they can trap you, just means you used it wrong or died at the wrong place, lets not reward players for bad play [sg-ahri-1]

zhonya and guardian angel are quite op items in the first place. use them wisely, if you prevent champions from trapping when reviving/statis cc becomes even more useless, most champions already dash/flash/blink or jump WHILE being CCED.....

so no lets keep it this way, i would agree with you ONLY, if they can't flee due to animation continuation in the middle of being rooted/snared or grabbed.

JarodDempseyMar 18, 20181 votes

aatrox and zill stasis you should be able to trap, theres space under them to place it. Lissandra shouldnt be able to be trapped since her dark ice occupies the entire space under and even a ways around her model. Bard is a bit of a grey area because sometimes it seems like more of a zhonyas where itd be limited to the champions body and other times it seems to extend to the earea around the champion. In most cases however, traps are the only direct counter to a stasis mechanic aside from a tether which is like twice as rare as traps and also harder to use.

PopcornBunniMar 19, 20181 votes

Put then how will I cheese with my Cait/jinx partner while playing as Morgana / Lux / Nami ?

Best Ekko NAMar 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Put then how will I cheese with my Cait/jinx partner while playing as //?

Simple, you make your partner show how damn good they are by having make use of Caitlyn's 800 range, and predict where the enemy will Flash so they'll land in the trap after the Support's CC ends. When someone does that, they'll deserve every bit of that 1.5 second crowd control. Putting the Trap under the enemy while CC'd isn't impressive, cannot be counter played, and is pretty unhealthy / frustrating game play. I'd much rather see some skill and effort showing intelligent and strategic play, such as trapping a wall where you think the enemy is going to Flash, because that's what makes the game interesting and fun.

DeloricVIMar 19, 20181 votes

Here's the thing about this - champions with these abilities are probably meant to be that way. The reason you take Blitz and Jinx into the same lane is because while Blitz is doing his job and keeping you from moving, Jinx can combo off - this is called Synergy. Besides, most traps have a delay/arming time. Also, not all CC is long enough to make sure you get that trap off. Some of them, you really have to be careful with, or have good reflexes/communication with your team to do this properly.

Not to mention, most people think that Zhonia's and GA are both a tad BS, so it's nice to see that there's at least some kind of answer to it. And, on that note, this ads some risk to Zhonia's that doesn't exist if you don't consider the possibility that your enemies can set up around you while in stasis.

Besides, there's always QSS, if you feel like it's becoming too much of a problem for you.