There's too much CC in the game

Big Lincoln··14 votes·2,204 views

and I have no idea why nobody has a problem with this when it's driving a massive wedge in the game's balance, and IMO it's far worse than damage or mobility creep

It's unfun to get deleted without warning, sure, but being locked down for millennia by something you've got barely any time to react to is not engaging gameplay. At least Sion gives you a big warning, Zac will jump onto you from 2 screens away then pull you back into his team, and he only gives you a fraction of a second to flash out if he executes it right. There are too many champions who are capable of reliably locking down at least one person -- a massive chunk of supports and pretty much every "modern" tank, including the freshly-reworked ones, can just prevent people from playing the game entirely.

Because there's so much CC champions need to be able to do more up-front before being CC'd. Bruisers get burstier because of 1-damage item into tank builds, like triforce or titanic, but completely lose the DPS they used to be renowned for, and now a big chunk of the class has turned into second-rate tankassassins or splitpushers. Assassins can't go glass cannon anymore because it's required to have HP and resists just for them to do their job, so now they're balanced around these defensive stats while also still having assassination potential. Melee carries need more shit to counter incoming crowd control, because otherwise, much like fighters, they wouldn't be allowed to even participate in a teamfight. Tanks, not only because they get more and more CC but also because they have stronger defensive steroids with each release, now have to deal with their itemization being nerfed as a countermeasure -- AGAIN, which also reflects on fighters who share these items with them.

When can we start talking about this? CC bots aren't healthy just like raw damage rightclickers aren't healthy, and it's making the game worse for everyone.

29 Comments

Jbels5 votes

Only tanks should have extreme amounts of CC. That's what they're designed for. The fact that several mages have team wide CC is disgusting. I can understand having a basic ability be a peeling CC spell, but there are champions like Orianna that win fights just by landing a 2+ person ult

Big Lincoln2 votes

only specific tanks should have extreme CC, usually the supports since they have no damage at all unlike the solo lane and jungle tanks

anything else is just homogenizing the class, which we've already seen because there are like 3 tanks that stand head and shoulders over the rest because they have the best CC

Ralanr2 votes

And that makes Sion weird because he's a top lane tank with AoE CC on three abilities.

Big Lincoln3 votes

he's the only tank who has reasonable telegraphs for his lockdown

Spoofghoul1 votes

Sion is pretty much, time telegraphed = time locked down

except for his ult which can be telegraphed much much longer then that

In that sense he is a really fair tank, if you get your ass cc'd for 2 seconds by his Q the you are blind deaf and slow

Not only is he visually telegraphed by his big animations but he is also a really loud champion

Ralanr1 votes

Let's be honest, Sion's probably the fairest champion in league.

Zenswayx3 votes

{quoted}

Only tanks should have extreme amounts of CC. That's what they're designed for. The fact that several mages have team wide CC is disgusting. I can understand having a basic ability be a peeling CC spell, but there are champions like Orianna that win fights just by landing a 2+ person ult

Those mages have CC in order to give themselves peel...Not to mention champs that have those kinds of game changing ults are really really mechanical extensive. Kat has a game changing ult yet she has NO CC so your point is invalid...but she is really mechanical extensive you have any idea how hard it is to do the azir shuffle and NOT get one shotted after you do it practically need a zhonya's just to pull it off so people don't immediately focus you down.

Brand has 1 CC but his ult is game changing....which the CC doesn't decide the team fight his ult does. Twitch has 1 CC but his ult is game changing, vlad's ult can be game changing yet it has no CC and ekko's ult can be game changing yet it has no CC the only CC is his W which can be easily predicted and avoidable. So i don't know what you're trying to say but your lack of game knowledge understanding the game is very poor.

Jbels3 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSB Zensway,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=chGXEc9E,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-06-05T19:25:31.955+0000)

Those mages have CC in order to give themselves peel...Not to mention champs that have those kinds of game changing ults are really really mechanical extensive. Kat has a game changing ult yet she has NO CC so your point is invalid...but she is really mechanical extensive you have any idea how hard it is to do the azir shuffle and NOT get one shotted after you do it practically need a zhonya's just to pull it off so people don't immediately focus you down.

Brand has 1 CC but his ult is game changing....which the CC doesn't decide the team fight his ult does. Twitch has 1 CC but his ult is game changing, vlad's ult can be game changing yet it has no CC and ekko's ult can be game changing yet it has no CC the only CC is his W which can be easily predicted and avoidable. So i don't know what you're trying to say but your lack of game knowledge understanding the game is very poor.

Why would you give an assassin a hard cc? Ever? My point isn't invalid just because kat has no CC, it's actually stronger because assassins are designed to do damage and get kills. Giving them CC is stupid and gratuitous

Zenswayx1 votes

{quoted}

Why would you give an assassin a hard cc? Ever? My point isn't invalid just because kat has no CC, it's actually stronger because assassins are designed to do damage and get kills. Giving them CC is stupid and gratuitous

No assassin has hard CC the most they have is a slow which isn't a hard CC. Ahri can be a assassin which has a charm and is the only hard CC a assassin has. Ekko's W is very hard to land let alone CC multiple of people but he doesn't even need it to kill you he can 1 shot you without it People mostly get the most out of his W because of it's passive which increases his AA Damage. So yes your point is invalid

Ralanr2 votes

Ekko, Leblanc (even before she was turned into a burst mage), and Fizz all have hard CC.

Nocturne, and Shaco also if fears count.

SEKAI3 votes

It all started with Lee and Ori's cancer ultis, and Malph I suppose.

Big Lincoln9 votes

Malphite having one hard CC spell and it being his ultimate, I find far more tolerable than more recent designs who have CC on most of their spells and are just insufferable about stopping you from going into a fight or getting out of it

Zenswayx4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=chGXEc9E,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T18:43:39.485+0000)

Malphite having one hard CC spell and it being his ultimate, I find far more tolerable than more recent designs who have CC on most of their spells and are just insufferable about stopping you from going into a fight or getting out of it

There are items that can prevent CC Along with some champs being able to void CC all together. if you go full glass cannon on anything that means you're going to 1 shot somebody if there is less CC that champ just has free reign to just do whatever the hell he wants and if he builds with CC cancelers then he is even a bigger problem. Kat is a high mobile champ and if you know her mechanics you can just legit dance around people Hence why if you want to stop her ult you do some sort of "displacement" CC to stop it.

it's all about decision making and when to go in and when not to go in. That defines how good of a player you are along with positioning...

Vah Naboris2 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSB Zensway,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=chGXEc9E,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T18:56:28.445+0000)

There are items that can prevent CC Along with some champs being able to void CC all together. if you go full glass cannon on anything that means you're going to 1 shot somebody if there is less CC that champ just has free reign to just do whatever the hell he wants and if he builds with CC cancelers then he is even a bigger problem. Kat is a high mobile champ and if you know her mechanics you can just legit dance around people Hence why if you want to stop her ult you do some sort of "displacement" CC to stop it.

it's all about decision making and when to go in and when not to go in. That defines how good of a player you are along with positioning...

But QSS and Zhonya's have high cooldowns and merc tread's reduce by a percentage and it's hardly enough and not every champion builds those boots

Zenswayx1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Touche Fatale,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=chGXEc9E,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T19:12:04.281+0000)

But QSS and Zhonya's have high cooldowns and merc tread's reduce by a percentage and it's hardly enough and not every champion builds those boots

You do realize that 70% of those boots are situational right? if there is heavy CC you get merc treads they can really save your life. The QSS nerf is unfortunate but it can help you change a team fight or help you survive to protect your inhibs/turrets. Same concept with Zhonya's.

Fairyfleur1 votes

How is Orianna's ult cancer? It has a clear startup time for you to move or flash out. Compared to other crowd control abilities she isn't very high on the annoyance spectrum.

Ralanr1 votes

Flash maybe. Not move.

Fairyfleur1 votes

You could probably move out if you're not in the center of The Ball, or you could use movement abilities.

Ralanr1 votes

Normally you're in the center when she shoots it.

Ahristocats3 votes

3 letters:

C D R

you face 3 champions loaded of cc, they stack CDR and overlap the cooldown of one of their cc with an other cc take ivern, his Q cd is 6 seconds with 45% cdr

if you have enough CC to cc someone for 4 seconds, then ivern will land an other Q again and other CC have their cooldown even lower

SexyBabyJesusZ1 votes

Morgana q is actually broken, I dont understand why she hasnt had her power shifted or some kind of change to it.

the root or snare (whatever cc it is i dont remember) is way too long, and while it might be slow, good morg players can play around that and use good positioning to fuck u with it.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

And the biggest problem is that CC NUKES HARD.

like seriously. 1.0 apratio on most ult ultimates that are aoe cc? come on.

Hay5eed1 votes

New Banshees veil, and Edge of Night should help a bit with this. Also merc treads can help with this as well.

Teridax681 votes

I think there are 2 main issues with CC right now:

  • Abilities in general have become progressively more loaded with additional effects, and CC is just one of the features that gets added. It's no longer enough for an ability to be a simple nuke, generally it must include at least one additional effect, often two. All of Rakan's abilities do two or more things at a time, for example, and his W is a dash, nuke and AoE CC effect combined: he's not OP or even truly overloaded, but is nonetheless a good example of the number of different effects attached to each ability. We're currently in a design environment where kits can be not particularly recognized for their CC in spite of having multiple instances of them on their kits: Xerath, for example, isn't recognized as a CC powerhouse in spite of his stun and slow, and neither are champions like Aurelion Sol, Fiora, Syndra, etc., despite the fact that all of these champions have at least one instance of hard CC and another separate instance of soft CC (ASol has both a stun and a knockback, both AoE). Effectively, the baseline level of crowd control is actually pretty high, and a "normal" champion is expected to have around one or two instances of CC, just as they're also expected to have at least one sort of gapcloser. This is also one of the reasons why there tends to be a lot of repetition across kits in this respect.
  • Most abilities in League don't really have counterplay at melee range, and this includes CC. Any sort of traveling skillshot emanating from a champion is basically guaranteed to hit an opponent attacking them at melee range, and since that's such a common model for abilities, in addition to PBAoEs and autoattack modifiers, it's very easy for a grouped team to puree any squishy melee champion who gets near them. Adding to this the prevalence of CDR, which reduces ability downtimes to the point where they're not particularly significant, and the result is an environment where grouping up tends to counter a whole bunch of champions way more than it should.

I think eventually we're going to need a pass where kits get desaturated and stripped down to their essentials: it's fine for a champion to have a lot of agency and be able to do several different things, but far too often champions are given bonuses that are not meant to be real strengths of theirs, and sometimes even cover up important weaknesses they're meant to have. It's understandable to want CC as a form of self-peel as a squishy carry, but when said carry constantly hangs around teammates and can call upon their combined damage against any diving attacker, what would otherwise be acceptable self-defense turns into a guaranteed death sentence against assassins and light fighters. Conversely, what counts as acceptably impactful laning and waveclearing damage for a tank ends up piling into already excessive burst against specific targets in teamfights, which makes balance overall much less stable. Paring down these effects and having champions truly lack certain effects, instead of simply not being best-in-class at them, could end up making for a much fairer and more fun game.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

I think eventually we're going to need a pass where kits get desaturated and stripped down to their essentials: it's fine for a champion to have a lot of agency and be able to do several different things, but far too often champions are given bonuses that are not meant to be real strengths of theirs, and sometimes even cover up important weaknesses they're meant to have.

Here here, this guy just put the nail right in that head!

Cosmic Warper1 votes

I'm ok with cc, i'm not ok with knockups being loaded into every fucking new kit.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

CC isn't at all "too much."

Most CC is attached to some kind of set-up. If you are getting hit by a lot of hard CC all the time then you are being out of position or are otherwise inattentive to what your opponents are doing.

Rengooo1 votes

The days of a propper glass canon assassin seem to be long gone. And ADC's non stop building item 3047

I think I get where you are coming from :/

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