Boards›Gameplay

Overloaded Kits? Azir vs. Jhin

Blakiepug··4 votes·1,128 views

Hi everyone! I've seen a lot of discussion lately in regards to game balance that talks about champions having overloaded kits and I would like to turn this thread into a discussion on overloaded kits as a balance philosophy. When exactly can we make this claim that a kit is overloaded?

To start, I would like to compare Azir's kit as it was at the beginning of the year before it was nerfed for being "overloaded" with Jhin's current kit. I'm sure I will miss some pieces so if you guys could help me fill in these charts I would be very grateful! Let's try to be as objective as possible please. ^_^

Azir Ability to damage towers quickly with his W (Short CD). Can create a temporary turret in the ruins of any other (Long CD). Shurima shuffle for high mobility. Strong DPS if left alone, similar to ADCs. Quick knock back in the form of his ultimate. High burst damage from combinations of his W,E, and Q. ~ Can punish from long range. ~ Gap closer from the Shurima shuffle. ~ Good engages. ~ Good disengages. ~ Vision from soldiers. Ultimate can be used to block a path for a short while.

Jhin Guaranteed critical hit every fourth shot. Bonus move speed after every one of these guaranteed critical hits. Long range root. Traps that slow and can do burst damage if you are in it's radius when it explodes. Long range ultimate with a critical on the fourth shot. Slow on each shot of the ultimate. Dancing grenade which scales up in damage with each kill it causes. Can punish from long range. ~ Good disengages. ~ Attack speed matches most other ADCs early game. ~ High late game auto burst. ~ Vision from traps. ~ Strong long range finisher. (Can catch low health champions running from the fight similar to Caitlyn with her ultimate.)

Edit: I'm going to denote the additions you guys added with this squiggly symbol ~. Also, to show where new Azir is at in comparison to old Azir I will use the strikethrough to show pieces of his kit he no longer has. Thanks for discussing guys! :D

24 Comments

Rivuo5 votes

Azir punishes you from long range, you close the gap he dashes away, you close the gap again he ults you away,

Azir is supposed to be a hypercarry but was a lane bully

Azir is supposed to be sustained damage but had insane burst

Its pretty much Azir had no weaknesses except for his skill cap was high

Jhin imo is still stupidly overloaded, I always thought Jhin loses 1v1 against any adc because his attack speed but the truth is he doesnt,

At level 1-8 the attack speed by jhin to a normal adc is the same, i t hink its around .80 for each either way you wont notice a difference until jhin has to reload.

So in essence jhin is hitting you just as fast as you're hitting him.

Then mid-late game comes and hes hitting you so hard that you need more attack speed to match the damage.

He is more of an ad caster rather than ADC.

I think jhin is overloaded because he has his E vision traps and W roots from long distance and then his ult is a pretty bullshit skill considering what we all saw from the LCS

Cresmont3 votes

as an jhin main on my other acc (ironbasher) i personally dont think its overloaded cuz he is a caster that can use autos, not a traditional ad. The e is pretty bad unless u can hit good cholepoints and the w and ult is so hard to hit on priority targets later in the game. That being said, he does have a LOT of stuff he can do, but azir (pre gutting) had sooooooo much more

Blakiepug3 votes

{quoted}

as an jhin main on my other acc (ironbasher) i personally dont think its overloaded cuz he is a caster that can use autos, not a traditional ad. The e is pretty bad unless u can hit good cholepoints and the w and ult is so hard to hit on priority targets later in the game. That being said, he does have a LOT of stuff he can do, but azir (pre gutting) had sooooooo much more

All casters can auto, the difference is Jhin's autos are not the 2 damage Leblanc autos that every mage has. I am just trying to look at this objectively to see what overloaded truly means. You say Azir had so much more stuff in his kit than Jhin has now, care to add to the list then? What else could Azir do that I missed?

Blakiepug1 votes

{quoted}

Azir punishes you from long range, you close the gap he dashes away, you close the gap again he ults you away,

Azir is supposed to be a hypercarry but was a lane bully

Azir is supposed to be sustained damage but had insane burst

Its pretty much Azir had no weaknesses except for his skill cap was high

Jhin imo is still stupidly overloaded, I always thought Jhin loses 1v1 against any adc because his attack speed but the truth is he doesnt,

At level 1-8 the attack speed by jhin to a normal adc is the same, i t hink its around .80 for each either way you wont notice a difference until jhin has to reload.

So in essence jhin is hitting you just as fast as you're hitting him.

Then mid-late game comes and hes hitting you so hard that you need more attack speed to match the damage.

He is more of an ad caster rather than ADC.

I think jhin is overloaded because he has his E vision traps and W roots from long distance and then his ult is a pretty bullshit skill considering what we all saw from the LCS

Kk, I will add some of these to the list shortly. :) When you say Azir had insane burst before was it mainly from his Q, R, or both? I was never that good at him so I don't know for sure haha.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

Kk, I will add some of these to the list shortly. :) When you say Azir had insane burst before was it mainly from his Q, R, or both? I was never that good at him so I don't know for sure haha.

I'm pretty sure it was the W-E-Q that was insane with thunderlords

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Azir punishes you from long range, you close the gap he dashes away, you close the gap again he ults you away,

Azir is supposed to be a hypercarry but was a lane bully

Azir is supposed to be sustained damage but had insane burst

Its pretty much Azir had no weaknesses except for his skill cap was high

Jhin imo is still stupidly overloaded, I always thought Jhin loses 1v1 against any adc because his attack speed but the truth is he doesnt,

At level 1-8 the attack speed by jhin to a normal adc is the same, i t hink its around .80 for each either way you wont notice a difference until jhin has to reload.

So in essence jhin is hitting you just as fast as you're hitting him.

Then mid-late game comes and hes hitting you so hard that you need more attack speed to match the damage.

He is more of an ad caster rather than ADC.

I think jhin is overloaded because he has his E vision traps and W roots from long distance and then his ult is a pretty bullshit skill considering what we all saw from the LCS

Early his reload screws him over, just dissengage once he finishes his reload. His level 1/2 is really strong with a support due to the execute taking you out from about 110-150 health in my experience.

Tukan Tonko4 votes

So, I will add a champion, can I?

Vayne:

Gap closer with bonus AD, can crit True damage every third hit Bonus ms while running towards enemy knock-back/stun Ult - invisibility for Q Ult - bonus AD Ult - triple the passive bonus

This is, for me, an overloaded kit. But that's just my opinion.

Also, Jhin has credits for being one of the best designed champions, and I agree with it. Do you think he is overloaded? Well, he may be, but for good! He have strengths and clear weaknesses! Many says that he is OP, but he's not, really. Overloaded kit doesn't mean it's always bad. Lee has overloaded kit as well, many people love him because of that.

Blakiepug1 votes

{quoted}

So, I will add a champion, can I?

Vayne:

Gap closer with bonus AD, can crit True damage every third hit Bonus ms while running towards enemy knock-back/stun Ult - invisibility for Q Ult - bonus AD Ult - triple the passive bonus

This is, for me, an overloaded kit. But that's just my opinion.

Also, Jhin has credits for being one of the best designed champions, and I agree with it. Do you think he is overloaded? Well, he may be, but for good! He have strengths and clear weaknesses! Many says that he is OP, but he's not, really. Overloaded kit doesn't mean it's always bad. Lee has overloaded kit as well, many people love him because of that.

Of course you can add a champion! I'm not sure if I'll put her in the main post though because I can't change the title now... >.< lol. And I'm not arguing Jhin's design, I think he was given a fun kit. Personally, I do think Jhin's numbers are a bit overtuned but here I am just trying to get an objective look at what "overloaded" means. If anything I meant this thread as an argument that champions shouldn't be nerfed for being "overloaded." Champions like Azir and Tahm Kench have been gutted beneath this reasoning but others like Lee Sin and Jhin like you mention are loved because of their complexity. Is removing aspects of a kit always the right way to nerf a champion deemed to be "overloaded" or is there something else we could do instead that might perhaps keep the fun but minimize the frustration?

Tukan Tonko2 votes

{quoted}

Of course you can add a champion! I'm not sure if I'll put her in the main post though because I can't change the title now... >.< lol. And I'm not arguing Jhin's design, I think he was given a fun kit. Personally, I do think Jhin's numbers are a bit overtuned but here I am just trying to get an objective look at what "overloaded" means. If anything I meant this thread as an argument that champions shouldn't be nerfed for being "overloaded." Champions like Azir and Tahm Kench have been gutted beneath this reasoning but others like Lee Sin and Jhin like you mention are loved because of their complexity. Is removing aspects of a kit always the right way to nerf a champion deemed to be "overloaded" or is there something else we could do instead that might perhaps keep the fun but minimize the frustration?

You don't have to add them, I believe many players think that Vayne is okay, that's just my opinion. xD Azir got nerfed over and over again not because us, regular players but because the competitive scene. Players did some sick combos here, so he got nerfed. But some champions like, let's say Vayne again can 1v5 as ADc (primary weakness of all ADcs is bad positioning) and nobody thinks she is OP. Kennen is the same, he may not be overloaded but he can wipe whole enemy team in a split of a second, winning the teamfight and games as well. Azir couldn't do this for sure. Yet it's fine if it's Kennen. Also, you need to play perfectly as Azir to be relevant, it is like this and it was like this even before. R, E, protobelt, Zhonya. Wow. xD

Riot stated that they want their champions to be frustrating to play against. And it is a thing that should be here. It would be less fun to play if there wasn't such a thing. xD But yeah, I know what you are talking about, and I agree with that.

MissingKayo1 votes

Azir had far longer range, far faster DPS (soldiers can attack far faster as well as multiple targets at once each), far stronger utility (knockup + dash prevention/slows versus just root/slow), was incredibly mobile via his dash + soldier Q range, and was far better at melting towers quickly.

sit kid1 votes

You're missing alot, so I'll make a new list for Azir.

Azir Ability to create a turret Long range Q that slows, allowing soldiers to get more autos off +1000 range on soldier autos Sustained damage through soldier autos Takes towers very fast due to nashors + attack speed Nice burst with shuffle Engage with E Disengage with E Ultimate that knocks everyone away He's a hypercarry, but also a lane bully Has amazing and safe waveclear from level 1

TLDR: He's a champion that practically can do everying, and when "balanced", just outperforms every other mid in compeditive. He is hard to play, and requires a lot of descision making, and is very awkward to play the first 50-100 games.

Blakiepug1 votes

{quoted}

You're missing alot, so I'll make a new list for Azir.

Azir Ability to create a turret Long range Q that slows, allowing soldiers to get more autos off +1000 range on soldier autos Sustained damage through soldier autos Takes towers very fast due to nashors + attack speed Nice burst with shuffle Engage with E Disengage with E Ultimate that knocks everyone away He's a hypercarry, but also a lane bully Has amazing and safe waveclear from level 1

TLDR: He's a champion that practically can do everying, and when "balanced", just outperforms every other mid in compeditive. He is hard to play, and requires a lot of descision making, and is very awkward to play the first 50-100 games.

I added some but some were already up their like the ability to create a turret and his strong DPS/sustained damage. What about Jhin? Any to add to his list?

sit kid1 votes

Hmmm, my game knowledge is very small about jhin, but i can say for sure that he is not as overloaded as azir. Not even close

He doesnt have any mobility

Doesn't protect himself outside of his w which is really easy to dodge

Doesn't have sustained damage and as steorid

Jhin has way more counterplay and ways to play around his kit

Blakiepug1 votes

{quoted}

Hmmm, my game knowledge is very small about jhin, but i can say for sure that he is not as overloaded as azir. Not even close

He doesnt have any mobility

Doesn't protect himself outside of his w which is really easy to dodge

Doesn't have sustained damage and as steorid

Jhin has way more counterplay and ways to play around his kit

Jhin does have mobility just not as much as Azir. He actually gets a handsome amount of movement speed whenever he gets a crit (so every 4th shot and I think off his ult though I might be wrong on that one... yeah actually I am pretty sure it is just from autos but he still does get some mobility). He can lay traps which slow to protect him and can be farther away from the fight to than Azir is. Azir may have long range but nothing tops the range on Jhin's W and ult lol. Jhin is definitely a more burst focused champion while Azir is sustained focused (though I think pre-nerf era he was pretty bursty as others here have mentioned).

sit kid1 votes

Imagine a Zed running at you.

Here's what you do as Azir. Wall him off and dash away

Here's what you do as Jhin. Hope to land auto+W fast and not get killed.

Sure Jhin has some way of self-peel and mobility, but compared to Azir, it is peanuts, and is one of the reasons azir is so heavily nerfed

Blakiepug1 votes

{quoted}

Imagine a Zed running at you.

Here's what you do as Azir. Wall him off and dash away

Here's what you do as Jhin. Hope to land auto+W fast and not get killed.

Sure Jhin has some way of self-peel and mobility, but compared to Azir, it is peanuts, and is one of the reasons azir is so heavily nerfed

But Azir wouldn't be a very good mid laner if Zed could just insta-kill him. Jhin is an adc and in terms of adcs he has just about as many tools to escape as the rest of them. The difference is that Jhin can sit farther back and support his team from afar where it will be harder for Zed to get to him. We should look in the broader scope of things to, not just their interaction with one specific champion. It's never good to say Zed counters Jhin and thus Jhin has strong weaknesses. If anything that speaks more to Zed's strength.

sit kid1 votes

It could go for any champion that tries to go on him. Riven, Jax, Darius, Irelia

With Jhin, you would have to rely on flash in order to get away

Tukan Tonko2 votes

{quoted}

Imagine a Zed running at you.

Here's what you do as Azir. Wall him off and dash away

Here's what you do as Jhin. Hope to land auto+W fast and not get killed.

Sure Jhin has some way of self-peel and mobility, but compared to Azir, it is peanuts, and is one of the reasons azir is so heavily nerfed

In order to do this you need a good Azir. If you have good Azir you will probably have a good Zed as well. And a good Zed will not only avoid ult but he will also deny his dash, resulting in Azirs death. To pull this off, you need to do E+Q combo perfectly, to the side and then somewhere away from the Zed. This also means that Azir is zoned, and they can destroy his team, because Azir just wasted his ult and Q/W/E and he only has 1 W stack. He may have short cooldowns but this will highly reduce his damage if he doesn't die. He will also take some damage.

And Jhin is pretty much an ADc. He is not Vayne to get stealth. So he may die, and most probably will, because there is not much you can do against Zed.

In both cases, Zed have overloaded kit as well. I know you want to show us the gap between Azir and Jhin, but consider that one of them is ADc and the second one is mage. They play very differently. This is a bad comparison.

sit kid1 votes

Come on. It really isn't that hard if you're used to playing Azir

Zed usually goes W-W and Death Mark

Azir R's Zed back (He can do that because it starts behind Azir), and performs an easy W-E-Q combo

Was it that hard?

Tukan Tonko1 votes

{quoted}

Come on. It really isn't that hard if you're used to playing Azir

Zed usually goes W-W and Death Mark

Azir R's Zed back (He can do that because it starts behind Azir), and performs an easy W-E-Q combo

Was it that hard?

If it is like this, sure, Azir can just do this, he still loses his ult.

But you know how to do this properly with Zed, right? Because only bad Zeds will do it like that. It's really stupid.

sit kid1 votes

Then how should Zed do it?

Divewing2 votes

Thing is Zed will murder Azir first, so Azir is kind of committed to making the first play (ulting). Zed has W and Ult to make that worthless.

Believe me, as an Azir main since his release, THE ONLY WAY Azir beats Zed is if the ZED IS GARBAGE.

In which case the whole thing is unfair testing since there are bonus variables outside the champion differences.

It's the same as Master Yi, Yi can run at you and Q when you ult, landing on you after the ults gone past already. Azir then doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell of winning.

Tukan Tonko1 votes

{quoted}

Then how should Zed do it?

If you want to start with ult, okay, but I believe you have seen how it's done correctly already. If you want to ult someone you never use W before that. After you come off the ult and Azir tries to ult you you simply W behind him (yes, you have plenty of time to do that) unleashing unbelievable damage that will kill him, or, if he have zhonyas, kill him after a short time. Azir can dash, of course, but you don't really know how hard it is to dash away when you have champion on you. If you hit him, you will stop and die. So if he gets behind you and you will most likely want to dash behind you, you will get killed. The only way to do that is to place soldier to the side, press E and then press Q to get away, but that's not only hard to do but also it's not really hard to interrupt, since it has hitbox and he is pretty much on you. That's what I mean by "you have to play it perfectly". Azir really needs to be played perfectly to have actual impact on the game, at least now, after those nerfs. So, you will not only die, you will most probably waste your ult and still die. So no, Azir can't really deal with Zed, and he won't deal so easily with anyone who gets to him. Yep, he can ult but ult won't help you in many situations.

Or, if you don't like my scenario, here Lancir explained another scenario. You can W to him to kill him, then if you get ult you may use ult to avoid it, but he may be pretty much dead by the time. Your example is bad, how do you want to compare Azir and Jhin with Zed? They are different champions, Azir have ult to deal with these things but it's not really that effective. You also get rewarded to use it offensively, if you pull it off perfectly, you will do a mess in enemy team. But you may die really fast as well. Azir may be overloaded, but for good. His skill ceiling is the highest one, at least in my opinion. And you can't just pick him and play well, there is no such thing on Azir. You need to learn him, play him A LOT and only then you will do something meaningful on him. Theory is easy, practice is hard. Especially with Azir. He has one of the worst win rates in the game. And he always has. And he probably always will. Even with 125+ games on him, his winrate is pretty low. That means you really have to invest your time to learn him, to train your muscle memory, to know how to play with him. Because if you play like an average or good player you won't do great. If you play perfectly, you will do veery good. That's the problem with Azir, and that's why he has so small playerbase.

Tukan Tonko1 votes

And I just realized that we are talking about Azir and Jhin, champions on which I have most mastery points. xD

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Blakiepug

Please nerf Hexdrinker in some way so that people actually build Maw
Gameplay184 comments
140
votes
Riot Please Do Not Remove the Active on Face of the Mountain :/
Gameplay113 comments
85
votes
Traditional Galio
Story, Art, & Sound35 comments
67
votes
Why does Jhin have 330 base move speed while most other ADC's have 325?
Gameplay114 comments
48
votes
Whoever made all of the different emoji faces for Omega Squad Veigar...
Story, Art, & Sound4 comments
35
votes
After how much fun I had completing all of the missions in Invasion...
Player Behavior31 comments
33
votes