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This Forced 50%, Winstreak = punishment, rigged Matchmaker, Its the new elo hell argument.

Kai Guy··6 votes·1,974 views

Used to be I cant climb because my teammates are baddie single cell cretins so I am in elo hell surrounded by an ocean of trash teammates. Now its, I cant climb because my teammates are baddie single cell cretins and I'm in elo hell surrounded by an ocean of trash teammates, and riot is the one who did this to me.

No reasons for forced matchmaker.

  1. Riot sets the MMR to Divisions, can just adjust that during a preseason to represent a small % of players if they ever wanted to change that.
  2. Elo system for team games requires hundreds of matches for reasonable accuracy of player skill to assigned skill. Padding additional games on a system that already requires more matches then many will play a season is pointless.
  3. System accomplishes its desired end result when left alone.
  4. A system that's searching for bad players so accurately it truly rig matches, well that is one that's collecting enough data rapidly enough that its superior to an ELO system. It also is capable of just using that same information to generate healthy matches where teams are close to 50% odds and balanced. For it to not destroy que times it has to be insanely advanced, or exceedingly simple.

Look guys, there's actual issues to target on matchmaker. A good discussion point to have would be for us to determine how many games it takes to really qualified as a win streak or loss streak. Discussion with riot about RIGGED MATCHMAKING is going to get laughed off, but a conversation about if there are hidden MMR gains for winning X games in a string and how high that mmr gain gets, that might be able to point to their system having a flaw in some elos where its streakier then others so you get disproportionately high mmr gains then drops as your play ranked because luck of the draw is a bit more prevalent, that's something I feel would be frustrating for players and a good conversation to have.

Edit. @downvotes. By all means leave a comment for me to tear apart. I'm confident that anything you say can be addressed with logic to show why your view is fundamentally flawed.

27 Comments

Ixoziel11 votes

This is so stupid. There is no "forced 50% winrate". If you're better than your enemies, you will have higher than 50% winrate. As you climb you face tougher and tougher enemies. Eventually you fight people who are as good as you, hence you win half the time. Is it really that hard to understand?

Getting you to a level where you're as good as your team / your opponents is the entire point of matchmaking. It's supposed to ensure that games are fair. If you're winning more than 50%, then clearly you're not at your true elo yet.

Kai Guy2 votes

Some players feel very strongly its a real thing. I'm going to take the time to do my best to be civil and address any concern or reason they bring and try to show with logic and reason why they are incorrect.

Lol.. I'm already getting downvoted for making this post.

Ixoziel4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ceEXkna8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-05T03:42:46.431+0000)

Some players feel very strongly its a real thing. I'm going to take the time to do my best to be civil and address any concern or reason they bring and try to show with logic and reason why they are incorrect.

Lol.. I'm already getting downvoted for making this post.

"Feeling" something is real doesn't make it real. The onus is on them to prove it's real.

Kai Guy3 votes

Agreed, its easy to disprove this one as well. hence -5 votes yet 0 comments to the contrary.

redniwediS1 votes

What do you mean 0 comments to the contrary? Did you miss my post?

Kai Guy2 votes

"Most players who think it's a real thing don't understand the reasoning behind what Riot is doing. " Sounds like you don't believe that forced 50% is real. I don't see anything you said to the contrary of my statements.

My statement of its easy to disprove this one was not in response to Ixoziel. Its easy to disprove Forced 50%.

what part of your post would you like me to focus on? Attempted fair matches? That its RNG for teammates because its a uncaring system that does not place any particular value to what team has a better win % as long as its reasonable close and fair on paper pre game?

redniwediS3 votes

Sounds like I don't believe that? Did you read what I said at all? If you did you didn't understand it, otherwise you wouldn't ask something like that.

Read it again mate. I KNOW the 50% win rate goal is real, but people like you don't understand it's purpose, or how Riot goes about achieving it.

Teémò1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ceEXkna8,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-05T04:19:50.658+0000)

Agreed, its easy to disprove this one as well. hence -5 votes yet 0 comments to the contrary.

People are free to to not believe it, but I do actually believe in it. https://i.imgur.com/7kiOCwF.png Instead of matching me with better players I end up put with players of 0% win rates. If you look at the kda's you'll see that it's rounded everyone's together but doesn't factor that I'm a support and I'm going to have less gold to carry. 2 minutes pass top mid both dead, playing against people out of their mmr. lee sin executed by wolves. 20 minutes now lucian's got 60 farm. Now I know this game was "silver" but to carry as a support with minimal cs when the teams so one sided knowing if I were a 40% win rate support player I'd get players better than me that would carry for me. It's kinda messed up.

Terozu1 votes

You if you look closely will realize they have 0% winrates with those champs. Not period.

redniwediS3 votes

Most players who think it's a real thing don't understand the reasoning behind what Riot is doing. They look at it and say "rigged!" without actually thinking about it.

Riot is attempting to create fair matches, and so as you improve they place you with better players, and if you get worse they place you with worse. In a perfect world it would do just this, but sometimes we have win streaks and loss streaks, and that messes with the system.

The big thing people get wrong is the part about your team and the enemy team. All players are pulled from the same pool of players. The matchmaking system does not place you with bad players and put you against good players. Mistakes happen with anything, and when that happens it usually gets posted everywhere as "evidence", but generally it works just fine.

Divine Hymn2 votes

The thing is, I am having the opposite experience. I am a support main. Interestingly, after a 7 game win streak in Solo Queue, Riot's next match in my Silver 2 game gave me a Silver 5 ADC against a Silver 1 ADC opponent. Now, if my ADC was Silver 1 placed against a Silver 1 opponent, that would be me "getting placed with better players." Instead, the system seems to expect me to carry an ADC who is facing a player almost a full division higher than him, simply because I'm on a winstreak.

Now, can I positively influence a lane where both my and the enemy ADC are silver 1, even though I'm silver 2? Probably, given the fact I've had little difficulty winning my lane if matched with a decent ADC. But when my ADC is struggling with basic positioning, CSes more poorly than the enemy, and doesn't react quickly to my plays (not his fault -- I would be shocked if he outplayed someone almost a division higher), my own personal play has little bearing on the outcome of the lane. When I was silver 5 with silver 5 ADC and silver 5 enemy, I could singlehandedly carry the lane. But if my ADC is silver 5 and my enemy is actually pretty good, there's not a tremendous amount I can do.

My issue isn't that the MMR system is placing me with BETTER players when I win a lot. In fact, I kind of wish they would. Good ADCs are easy to snowball. My issue is that they are actually placing me with WORSE players and expecting me to carry them. The Jhin's Na.op.gg says he has a solo MMR of Bronze 1, so it's not like he's some winstreak jhin smurf whose MMR is inflated past his silver 5 rank.

VvVVvV2 votes

{quoted}

If you're better than your enemies, you will have higher than 50% winrate.

Not exactly true. Its if your TEAM is better than your enemies. Ive seen many games where someone just smashed and had like 21 kills while next highest on his team was like 4 or 5 and still lost the game.

Ixoziel1 votes

{quoted}

Not exactly true. Its if your TEAM is better than your enemies. Ive seen many games where someone just smashed and had like 21 kills while next highest on his team was like 4 or 5 and still lost the game.

It is true because you're the only constant. Your team will change every game. The only thing you can do is try to influence each game as much as possible in a positive direction. Some games you can go 23-5 and still lose. Other games you can feed 0-10 and still win. For each of those games there is a game where the teams are somewhat even without your influence and you playing better than your enemy counterpart will net your team the win.

SkinArea1 votes

I've experienced this on over 10 game losses in a row when I was in my prime. The better I would do the worse teammates I would get and I'm not exaggerating when I say I was averaging about 27-30 kills and about 20+ assists those games. If I was duo with someone of equal skill who I could communicate efficiently with (i.e. someone who spoke english) then I'm sure we would have probably been able to win all the way to master/challenger, but the fact is after season 3 the game was definitely rigged to shit. If matchmaking wants you to lose for whatever reason then you will lose.

130x1 votes

{quoted}

This is so stupid. There is no "forced 50% winrate". If you're better than your enemies, you will have higher than 50% winrate. As you climb you face tougher and tougher enemies. Eventually you fight people who are as good as you, hence you win half the time. Is it really that hard to understand?

Getting you to a level where you're as good as your team / your opponents is the entire point of matchmaking. It's supposed to ensure that games are fair. If you're winning more than 50%, then clearly you're not at your true elo yet.

But there is. Think about the known and released data, champion winrates. When and what target do they adjust these for? Right 50%. This is where Riot feels balance is, 50%. So it makes all the sense in their world to balance with mmr as well as try to avg 50% win rate per team.

I gave you a logical factual theory. Give me one to support that they do not do this. My win rate is 67% by the way and I am forced to 2v5 every single game to climb. I live the life. It is unfun and exausting.

Ixoziel1 votes

{quoted}

But there is. Think about the known and released data, champion winrates. When and what target do they adjust these for? Right 50%. This is where Riot feels balance is, 50%. So it makes all the sense in their world to balance with mmr as well as try to avg 50% win rate per team.

I gave you a logical factual theory. Give me one to support that they do not do this. My win rate is 67% by the way and I am forced to 2v5 every single game to climb. I live the life. It is unfun and exausting.

Of course they target champion winrates to be 50%. What else could they possible target it for? Every champion winrate HAS to average out to 50% when combined. It's simple math because only half of the players in one game can win while the other half must lose.

"This is where Riot feels balance is, 50%."

That's not where they "feel" balance is, it's where it actually is. If you take a seesaw, guess where the balance point is? Right in the middle, at 50%. But there is no "forced". If you look at the winrates of people who MAIN the champions, they have much higher than 50%, often up to 57-58% on average.

"My win rate is 67% by the way"

Uh then you just disproved that there's a forced 50% balance, congratulations.

BainTheBanned2 votes

I think its this snowball meta that makes games shorter. I have very high % of games that dont last longer then 25 min. when games use to be 30-60m long. when you get one enemy player have 10 kills in 15 min in 3-4 games in a row, you have to wonder wtf is going on, matchmaking? smurfs? elo? matchups? something lol. And once your elo is destroyed by say 20 or so bad games. your pretty much f***ed, get another account and try again. HA

WangMaster90002 votes

I dunno why this has so many dislikes. Forums are full of posts that matchmaking is broken since start of season 7 with forced 50% winrate. Every game is complete facestomp that is decided by a coinflip: Heads-your team wins, Tails-your team loses. There is no way to solo carry when you get Tails and enemy team has triple or quadruple of your team's KDA and 6 turrets to 1 :P

Hyquiem2 votes

Huzzy said “win rate doesn’t matter” and as I see it he was right. Becuase litterly there should not be a paticular winrate. The fact the word “hardcarry” exists no number can decide the random favor of a win rate. I carried an bunch 40% win rate boys with fking xerath. In my opinion YOU DECIDE THE GAME NOT THE NUMBER.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

It is because people don't understand elo hell and the backlash forced people to come up with new theories.

There is no system that can accurately place 100 million players at the exact skill level they belong in a 5v5 game. That is simply never going to happen and even the best system will have some errors. The mmr system is very good but will invariably put some players where they do not believe, hence the idea that some people are in elo hell.

However, people are still unable to accept this concept 8 seasons in so they come up with all sorts of ridiculous stuff.

SkinArea1 votes

Dude the system was fine for the first 2.5 seasons, and I was hovering between bronze and silver most of the time until I got to Gold in season 2, but right after the rewards were released so I didn't get mine and I was okay with that and really didn't give a shit. Season 3 I got platinum and was beating diamond, master and challenger players, although challenger players were difficult I didn't see them as some amazing player who couldn't be beaten. Then season 3 ended and that's when I feel like the system truly became rigged. I lost something like 12 or 18 games in a row, something I had never experienced in over 5k games at the time. My win rate at that moment was still around 59%. Fast forward about a month and my win rate tanked to 49% with winning 2 and losing 5 every single day. Oddly enough I recently found out that this is around the time a larger company called Tencent acquired Riot games. ISN'T THAT SOMETHING? Right after this larger corporation acquired Riot is exactly the time this started happening to me? I tested it over multiple accounts with multiple different scenarios. Some accounts I could easily get to Gold while others seemed to be stuck in bronze vs players I believed should be in Diamond+ due to their objective control, map awareness, cs and mistake awareness and capitalization. There are a few ways to climb still but it has almost nothing to do with skill anymore unfortunately. If you duo with a player as skilled as yourself (Assuming you're Diamond or higher skilled) then yes, you may climb with slight difficulty, but there was a time when the teams were fairly equally matched. No more of that.

AlienPrimate1 votes

This is such a bogus myth. The only thing getting a big winstreak does is makes it harder to carry because your MMR increases thus giving you a higher elo game. This doesn't mean it just gives you better enemies. It gives you better allies too. Streaks just happen. They don't mean anything. For example, in my past 21 ranked games, I am 5-16 but my total ranked win rate is 18-22. I'm not blaming Riot for this even though I did have a bad team in a lot of those games I lost like the last ADC I had who stood so far back on Sivir that she didn't get the gold from me killing Cannons with relic shield. Riot can't know which team will win before the match starts. It just randomly selects 10 people with roughly the same MMR. The only argument you could possibly make for them "forcing" a 50% win rate is that you will often end up being paired with (on either team) a higher rank person who is on a loss streak when you are on a win streak because your current MMR will match. Take my downvote since you are so keen on farming them.

5050BS1 votes

Harder ELO games should mean that players across the board should get better in your matches.

This is not the case. It SEEMS to be that to make a harder ELO means you get more unskilled players on your team.

HOW the hell are some of these players in this ELO? Duo, Smurf, Boosted all screw with the stats. This is why I feel Ranked should be SoloQ and Team Ques. SoloQ is TRUE SoloQ no one is grouped. TeamQ is where you can Duo, Trio or 5 man.

WangMaster90001 votes

People who say that 50% forced winrate isn't real can suck a horsec**k... Why is that every time i win 3-4 onesided games(games nearly impossible to lose) i immediately lose 3-4 onesided games where my team either goes afk or my team's kda is like 13 and enemy's is like 45, with 1 turret to 7 huh? Ranked shouldn't be like "if you deserve higher rank you must carry in your current stage" NO. I want to play normally and advance higher not be "that guy" who have like 9/3/4 kda (random example) and jng and bot decide to go 5/11 or 3/13 like those onesided games are. Im not a dumbass i know KDA doesnt win games, objectives do. But what can i do when i'm sometimes fed but so is 3 enemy and i can't carry or be relevant anyway? Some games just can't be won and those games are determined by faulty matchmaking system that creates those games as soon as you win couple...

Sir Prepuzius1 votes

those kind of posts about rigged matchmaking are idiotics to say the least and show the level of intellect of the guy writing them i get pissed just by reading at this shit, not only you have to be plain stupid to think something like that, you have to be stupid and arrogant at the same time, one of the worst combination ever

look at that:

my teammates are baddie single cell cretins and I'm in elo hell surrounded by an ocean of trash teammates, and riot is the one who did this to me.

flash news einstein, you're SUPPOSED to be put on a 50% winrate precondition, i.e. teams with equal MMR

to ensure fairness for everybody during the match

if you can't manage to force your winrate under this circunstance and complain about rigged matchmaking you're basically ASKING FOR the very thing you're complaining about, to be put with better teammates and worst enemy team

why in the hell would riot matchmaking prevent you to climb, and if it were the case, how can people climb?? or are you so delusional they target you in particular?

Kai Guy1 votes

I have no idea how you found this thread to necro it but im kinda impressed.

Yes the argument that riot forces 50% is stupid and untrue. Any logical though about what it requires shows it to be unnecessary and unrealistic.

Despite that, I still got a good 3 to 1 downvote ratio for making the claim that forced 50% is the same BS as Elo Hell. Yet Folks wonder why I say the worst part of this game is the community.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ceEXkna8,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-09-28T07:00:43.557+0000)

I have no idea how you found this thread to necro it but im kinda impressed.

Yes the argument that riot forces 50% is stupid and untrue. Any logical though about what it requires shows it to be unnecessary and unrealistic.

Despite that, I still got a good 3 to 1 downvote ratio for making the claim that forced 50% is the same BS as Elo Hell. Yet Folks wonder why I say the worst part of this game is the community.

Problem is that you tied it to elo hell. The forced 50% winrate is nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Elo hell was the inherent inaccuracies that comes with any solo elo system in a 5v5 game.

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