"Why is Riot hurting my Off-builds when it's the main build that's the problem?"

ModAcademy Kayn··13 votes·1,129 views

Champions will always have "True Builds" (The build that follows the design the champion was made under, and the most commonly built build by the community). Veigar was designed under building lots of AP, and since the most commonly built build by the community is Full AP, that is his "true build"

"True Builds" exist because of how a champion's kit works. Would you want someone with as much CC as Naut, having top tier DPS of a Fighter? If such a thing existed, and became problematic, the Tank Naut would be preserved over the AD-PS (AD DPS, get it?) as it's the one they've deemed the original concept and healthiest.

This is what matters most when it comes to "True builds" and Off Builds, and how balancing occurs to each. For example, let's use the AD Poppy offbuild. Poppy's original concept is a disruptive tank that likes to stick a hammer in your face. Due to the concept of a tank, she is meant to have a over time kill time pattern when not completely ahead, and as such, her Q short CD, Anti-mobility and bonus resistances amplify that idea. Poppy's nerfs were targeted at her damage from her Ult and her shield duration.

Now the complaint goes "Why are you nerfing my off build when it's the main build that's problematic?" The simple answer is simple: Your build is a joke. Not to be rude, but off builds tend to be based off some sort of gimmick. For AD Poppy (assassin/high damage diver), the idea is to burst your opponent while they're stunned, knock em up, and finish them quickly. (You're trying to act like the Old Poppy essentially)

This is where the issue comes in. People enjoy playing these offbuilds since they are fun, but they are, when it comes down to it, Joke builds. They are meant to be a build to have fun in, they aren't serious. That's why True Builds are balanced without consideration to off builds, since they aren't abiding by the way the class was designed to be healthy with and are simply joke builds. (Hello Tank Assassins and AP Yi) Since Poppy was outdueling people with her high shield uptime with CoC and insta-cast Burst/stall for CD Ult, it was those that got targeted despite the existence of an AD Off build.

A great example of an Offbuild that Riot actually encourages because it DOES add serious variation of a build path other than a joke, is AP and AD Ezreal. Both accomplish a role, with different qualities to them, and they are separately capable of being balanced due to ratios. The difference strikes with Poppy, is that she is meant to be a tank who does some pretty decent in your face damage, but that quality overlaps with AD Poppy, which is primarily in your face damage, but less tank.

TL;DR: So when Tank Poppy is doing a bit too much damage, what gets hit is the same quality that AD Poppy wants, which is unfortunate but the off build is incapable of being separately balanced without the main build losing what makes it special, special.

25 Comments

Big Lincoln4 votes

compensate AD poppy by giving her abilities higher bonus AD ratios

off build preserved, tank poppy unaffected

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

But Black Cleaver and Triforce aren't uncommon builds on Tank Poppy, so it still buffs her.

Not to mention, you run the Kled risk, where you make the AD ratios so high, where they can't afford NOT to be building AD (which is the concept Riot uses to discourage Kled from building Tank-Kled.)

Big Lincoln1 votes

black cleaver is really bad on poppy

Triforce is better but 25 AD won't be seeing a lot of benefit from it; if the base damage is nerfed and the ratios go up then tank poppy with a little AD will only even out, where AD poppy will be buffed

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Health? CDR? AD and Armor Pen for long drawn out fights? That's pretty good considering Poppy's fighting Style.

Ralanr1 votes

It's also expensive on a Tank salary. You'd have to rush it for it to be worth it and to do that you need to snowball (at least in my experience).

Everyone seems to hate that tanks even can snowball...

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Yeah, i can see the price issue, but honestly, Poppy doesn't have much issue with lane dominance.

Ralanr1 votes

Though I think Riot is going to change that.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ce1TKV5e,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T23:06:54.583+0000)

But Black Cleaver and Triforce aren't uncommon builds on Tank Poppy, so it still buffs her.

Not to mention, you run the Kled risk, where you make the AD ratios so high, where they can't afford NOT to be building AD (which is the concept Riot uses to discourage Kled from building Tank-Kled.)

That's about 33.75 damage they removed from her ult, congrats.

Plus, the Poppy people were mostly complaining about was the Sunfires Spirit Visage full tank build. The assassin build recieved its nerfs in less base damage, which happened. There's no reason to nerf the bonus AD scaling that wasn't being abused whatsoever.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

One could question why a disrupter tank needs a .9 AD Ratio in the first place

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ce1TKV5e,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-12T01:33:00.722+0000)

One could question why a disrupter tank needs a .9 AD Ratio in the first place

It's a bonus AD ratio, it doesn't matter why it's there, but it is so why can't we have fun with it?

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Because a mainly utility based ability, shouldn't also be doing a lot of damage in general. They want to cement it's use as utility, not extra damage to throw out (which is the current problem).

They don't want any black cleaver-sterak gage Poppy's to be doing damage with it. They want it to be used utility wise, not for battle, since thats what Tank Poppy is doing too well.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Every ability should scale with every stat. In different amounts.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ce1TKV5e,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T02:27:55.178+0000)

Because a mainly utility based ability, shouldn't also be doing a lot of damage in general. They want to cement it's use as utility, not extra damage to throw out (which is the current problem).

They don't want any black cleaver-sterak gage Poppy's to be doing damage with it. They want it to be used utility wise, not for battle, since thats what Tank Poppy is doing too well.

Steraks is bonus AD, which does not affect it at all.

Black Cleaver barely nudges up the damage. Also, Black Cleaver is primarily a damage item. If Poppy buys this first, her defensive stats should be suffering, hard.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

HOW WOULD IT HURT? It just opens the door to joke builds. We WANT joke builds.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

And you still have your joke build. The only difference is that you don't have a Nuke Utility Spell on it. You still have everything else that makes the build good.

(also have you seen that on-hit Poppy build, now that's funny).

Ralanr1 votes

Hopefully doesn't fuck over my AD runes on Poppy.

Asayake 5150glow5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ce1TKV5e,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-11T22:48:06.746+0000)

compensate AD poppy by giving her abilities higher bonus AD ratios

off build preserved, tank poppy unaffected

Lmao they literally nerfed her ult's BONUS AD ratios for no reason. The base damage nerfs were needed, not the scalings.

SlntReaper2 votes

So niche builds should be ignored? great. lemme just never play Aatrox ever again

Arsenic Sulfur2 votes

Well there is your first mistake.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Either my one week break from League was more eventful than i thought, or Aatrox was always a build from the very start. Maybe it's an acronym...

Aitem 3001 aitem 3174 titem 3071 ritem 3027 oMitted due to removal from game xitem 3146 (close enough)

There i fixed your build. Send me a postcard when you hit Challenjour

SlntReaper1 votes

o should be item 3056 ironically its an off meta item

Cowseed2 votes

Translation: 'We did not approve your build as 'meta' so it will be treated like a sack of garbage because that's what we say it is". Doesn't matter how well it works for you. If 50% of the player build isn't able to spam it in ranked then it is just a trash build.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Translation: Champions are designed to be healthy and balanced under the logic they had been designed under. While joke builds are fine, they're not going to be prioritized over the build that is weak/too strong.

Cowseed1 votes

Please stop calling it a 'joke' build. Just because someone decides to make use of a scaling that riot gave a champion but didn't explicitly tell people to build doesn't make it a 'joke'. It's called a build. Doesn't matter if you think it's crap as long as the person who uses it knows what he's doing and does it well.

Please get off your high horse.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I mean, that's legit what they are. Unless it's something like AP and AD Ezreal, which is an actual variation of a build and playstyle, it is legit a fun build. It's a build in which you are meant to have fun with. I never said it was crap, though i can see know how joke build can be seen as insultingly.

Maybe should've labeled them as Fun and Serious builds.

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