Raising the price of the upgraded Machete 100G would be fine if you do this one small thing.

Lao Fu the Tiger·Jan 26, 2015·72 votes·3,053 views

Lower the price of the original machete so we can buy just one more potion at the start.

Please?

27 Comments

ValyrianBladeJan 26, 201513 votes

What I find frustrating is that I had worked out runes/masteries and sequence that let me clear the blue side jungle on 1 health pot, then base to upgrade machete and get 2 more health pots to go do red side with 3 health pots. It felt really optimal since I could hit 4 with decent health and 2 health pots left with my stalkers blade for a gank.

Now my options are either to only buy 1 health pot (risky if I get attacked at all) and then upgrade my machete after blue side and go do red on no health pots (so I have to base again at 4), or use both health pots so I can clear another camp (probably red) before I base. Meaning I get less gold on that camp due to using a weaker machete, have increased risk of dying due to counter jungling (I never minded my red getting stolen, I'd just redo wolves for 4), and probably still won't have health leftover for a level 4 gank. I guess the alternative is to do a level 3 gank but that has never been my playstyle (and to be honest I want stalkers blade to gank with).

I guess I'll see how it goes, hope I can clear the extra camp easily enough...

JachtJan 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

What I find frustrating is that I had worked out runes/masteries and sequence that let me clear the blue side jungle on 1 health pot, then base to upgrade machete and get 2 more health pots to go do red side with 3 health pots. It felt really optimal since I could hit 4 with decent health and 2 health pots left with my stalkers blade for a gank.

Now my options are either to only buy 1 health pot (risky if I get attacked at all) and then upgrade my machete after blue side and go do red on no health pots (so I have to base again at 4), or use both health pots so I can clear another camp (probably red) before I base. Meaning I get less gold on that camp due to using a weaker machete, have increased risk of dying due to counter jungling (I never minded my red getting stolen, I'd just redo wolves for 4), and probably still won't have health leftover for a level 4 gank. I guess the alternative is to do a level 3 gank but that has never been my playstyle (and to be honest I want stalkers blade to gank with).

I guess I'll see how it goes, hope I can clear the extra camp easily enough...

You will have enough to upgrade to Trailblazer after just the blue side. With buying two pots. At least I do... I usually recall with 435 gold or so. Just have to wait a bit.

KikirinoJan 27, 20158 votes

Anytime spent waiting is wasted time and only hurts your team. Also, the upgrade cost after the increase will be 450. Recalling with 435 gold means 15 seconds of waiting just for the upgrade and no pots.

This change will result in a couple things.

Most jungles will now have to clear Gromp>Blue>Red/Golems>Red>Blue and then base. This makes invades at your second buff very likely to happen if the enemy jungle knows where you started.
Try grabbing the river mob after your first buff clear. Killing this at level 2 takes some time because it has 600 or 800 health and moves. This gives the enemy ample time to steal your second buff or try to fight you at the crab for first blood.

This change makes the early jungle levels VERY risky and unlikely to allow ganks until the jungler backs for a second time.

Ronnie LawJan 27, 20151 votes

I don't think so man.

With the right rune's/masteries just about anyone can go from gromp to red if not DG.

I'm playing with starting gromp and killing only small camps for the machete upgrade and then cleaning up double buffs after my first back.

There is risk in that EITHER/BOTH buffs are potentially stolen, but the flip side is being able to go to lane with double buffs and be healthy.

And that is with MOST jungle capable champs. The dedicated junglers clearly have better routes and paths, and that is part of what their kit offers. Jungle security and clear times. While it is debatable from a balance perspective, there is nothing wrong with this conceptually. The problem is when you have junglers that don't suffer in other areas of gameplay and still outclass in the jungle.

That's neither here nor there though.

Foxdrop did a video not to long ago about the new Jungle items and when to go buy them. His position, and I agree with it, is that by NOT going B ASAP to get your jungle item, you are farming your jungle inefficiently, and falling behind.

So basically, even a full clear capable champ is best served going B at 350, and soon to be 450 for pretty clear reasons. Right now, that full clear capable champ can clear one side, B, then grab their Jungle Item AND a ward AND a pot or two. They lose nothing by doing this, even though they COULD stay in the jungle and keep clearing.

This means that NOT having initial sustain in the Jungle isn't all that much of a problem, as ideally, you won't be staying long for your first clear/half clear anyways. Then you go B and default to max health, regardless of if you were already at full health or nearly dead.

SporadicInanityJan 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

You will have enough to upgrade to Trailblazer after just the blue side. With buying two pots. At least I do... I usually recall with 435 gold or so. Just have to wait a bit.

And then you go back to clear with no pots at all. Champs with no inherent sustain or shield spam or whatever can't handle that. Of course that is primarily tank junglers, too. The change is pushing them further out of favor which is just Riot telling us to stay the course and continue spamming LeeSin , , JarvanIV , RekSai , and Fiddlesticks

INTER5TELLARJan 28, 20152 votes

Yeah, I love how they wanted diversity and yet there are a handful of junglers who can actually do well - they're doing so well that they increased item prices to affect them. But, Rito, this price increase is only going to dig deeper graves for the already hurting junglers, which just pisses me off. I don't even jg and this logic makes no sense.

JambulijaJan 28, 20151 votes

Exactly!

coppinslingerJan 28, 20151 votes

You and me both man! Instead of just whining about how hard the new jungle is, EXPERIMENT and find out what works instead of just complaining because you don't have the brain-power to think about how to improve your clears (AS runes anybody?).

I've found out a super secret-strat that can get you to level 5 at 5 minutes (and level 6 before 7) with just Machete two pots - never backing. And that's on champs like Zac and Malphite hehehe.

SporadicInanityJan 27, 20153 votes

Patch maintenance time was announced. This change is going through. I had hoped with every fiber of my being that this change wouldn't go through even though i knew, deep down, that it was. My pool of junglers is going to get messed up really bad by this change since most of them can barely do their first clears because of a lack of clearing power and/or sustain.

The part that scares me the most is the boneheaded reason Riot gave for the change. "Jungler might get first blood and snowball off of that." Champions snowball off of first blood? Well I never....

The fact that this is even happening frightens me because Riot is going to continue making dumb changes like this that don't benefit the masses or don't really benefit anybody at all. Nerfs are pretty much all that's happening now. I don't remember the last time somebody got buffs that were ample enough to help them see play other than Maokai.

I'm pessimistic as all hell but i can't be the only one who's seeing this, right?

Lao Fu the TigerJan 27, 20151 votes

Yes.

Which is why the extra potion would even make the price raise fine! Does first blood have that much impact? Even if it did, lowering the original price makes it better for both that snowballing problem as well as early clears.

What Is SmiteJan 27, 20151 votes

I remember back in Season 4 they did mention in the patch notes that First Blood money was dropped from 400 gold to 200 gold so that laners couldn't snowball as hard as they use to

HibekiJan 27, 20152 votes

It's bad enough that the jungle items are already retardedly cost efficient and slot efficient, but now you want an even better early start (Which a jungler shouldn't have, thats why you could only get 2 pots in the first place) is a no.

100g is hardly a change anyway. you can get 80 of it by killing the rift skuttler with the second jungle item.

What Is SmiteJan 27, 20151 votes

You get 80 gold from the Scuttler AFTER YOU UPGRADE YOUR SMITE, not before so that 80 now becomes 65 and the time it takes to clear some camps takes long than others not to mention that the jungle mains also have to wait a full 100 seconds after clearing a camp for it to respawn. Meanwhile Laners get all the gold and XP they want from lane minions that spawn every 30 seconds from the enemy base,the jungle is basically a battle for control of 16 camps (2 scuttler's, 2 blue buffs, 2 red buffs, Dragon/Baron buffs, 2 Gromps, 2 Krugs, 2 Red Raptors, 2 Wolves) with each of them having a buff that is very crucial to either vision control or jungle control. Also jungle items need to be efficient because Junglers make just a bit more than scrap for the Job they preform during games. As Junglers we have to help ward the map with the support, keep tabs on buff respawn timers, help get the laners fed, help keep the fed carries from getting their asses handed to them in teamfights, and hold the base down with whatever waveclear we have when the entire team is dead, add ontop of that stealing objectives from the enemy team (because who else besides the jungler can deal 1K true damage on a Neutral monster with a single spell). So unless you actually have played the jungle with many different styles of junglers then don't talk shit because we know how the changes affect us better than any other role can infer how much the changes to junglers items will hurt us.

WullfJan 27, 20151 votes

its 100 gold.

it is nothing

just kill one more camp.

Also final jungler item costs 100g less.

i do not belive that you back from jungle just as you hit the cost of machete. That would be highly ineffective

exiledFromBadmenJan 27, 20151 votes

Ineffective? Have you ever played Sejuani or Nautilus ?

WullfJan 27, 20151 votes

as a matter of fack I did.

it is hard

but you jsut have to work it out.

Additionaly both these champs are expected to get some buff soon.

exiledFromBadmenJan 27, 20152 votes

They already got buffs. But STILL the machete nerfs will hit them more than you thought. I just finished a match as Sejuani and survived with 70 hp vs red, BUT rekt the late game.

WullfJan 27, 20151 votes

then all is well?

exiledFromBadmenJan 27, 20152 votes

No. This will hurt their early games and won't let them survive to the late game.

NorthernDruidJan 27, 20151 votes

Or lower the price of initial machete instead of the enchantment.

If this change goes through i'm never leaving my utility masteries behind for the jungle.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 27, 20151 votes

I need this.

Rito plz

Hyrum GraffJan 27, 20151 votes

I don't think this is the right change to make, because if you reduce the original machete by 35g, that's 35 more gold you need to farm up before you can back for the upgrade. Although I guess you could reduce the cost of the upgrade by 35, too.

Machete already gives hp/5 while you're fighting monsters. What if we just buffed that number?

KlNG ACEJan 27, 20151 votes

this would give junglers with no sustain a better early game. at least it wouldnt make them go base after doing both their buffs at the beginning of the game.

zergmanJan 27, 20151 votes

Riot's logic on this bothers me to no end. So because someone could get first blood you have to nerf the item to account for that? What? My hell you made the jungle hard enough. Now we can't even buy the upgrade on our first back with some champs. Also there are some Junglers where I don't want to do an enchantment so moving the cost decrease there doesn't help me any. Just get rid of the bonus gold on first blood if it's that big of a deal. I always thought it was a strange bonus anyway.

53872273_DELJan 27, 20151 votes

I get less gold than a support in the jungle item 3070

even though riot upped the gold..

I have to run utility in masteries to get 3 pots

MyrddinJan 28, 20151 votes

It is kind of a crappy change, just makes it so you cant jungle random things with poor first clears, since now you have to go camp-buff-buff base

TwilitJan 28, 20151 votes

Really, that would help so much. Especially with junglers that wind up at critically low HP after 3 camps, Rengar is just the first one that comes to mind, as well as not being able to clear a 4th for the extra gold for a pot or two, or even the rift scuttler, as it'd just be too risky to attempt at the HP level you'd be at with the enemy jungler running about