fuck, it's stupid that 800 gold just completely shits on me with auto attacks applying GW
Morello's 8 seconds of it is stupid but at least they have to throw a combo at me or catch me low. EC is dirt cheap and always applies it
Zielmann6 votesMake GW on EC and Mortal Reminder have a stacking debuff. For EC, apply one stack on auto-attack only, 7% healing reduction per stack, max of 4 stacks (so it'd be a weaker version of GW at full stacks than you get from Mortal Reminder). For Mortal Reminder, 10% healing reduction per stack, max of 4 stacks (same level of power as current). If this seems like too harsh of a nerf to Mortal Remdiner, maybe apply stacks on autos and once per physical damage spell.
AninLegions7776 votesNo. Simple. Healing and increased HP regen like Voli and Mundo are blatantly overpowered. Remember the season Riot removed executioner's? Well I do. The team with the most sustain won. I prefer not to relive those days.
Big Lincoln3 votesRemember the season Riot removed executioner's?
Did I ask to remove it?
800g to cut my means of survival almost in half for up to an entire fight is cancer. Having the same limit as Morello is a more generous change than the item deserves
AninLegions7771 votesNo. They are not the same. Leblanc and Syndra can easily bring an enemy to 35% HP thanks to how trash MR is and has always been and also thanks to the burst that mages have. Meanwhile tell me how a 150 AD Lucian is meant to bring a 200 Armor with 2k HP malphite or mundo to 34/40% HP. Be realistic.
Big Lincoln2 votesThey are not the same.
you're right, one is 800 gold
Be realistic.
A Lucian has way better odds of taking down a tank than Syndra and Leblanc do after mid game; just a Visage as second or third item is more than enough for Mundo to keep them from putting a dent in him unless they're fed. Between 
he has more than enough pen to shred them and 
gives him even more power. And he doesn't need to rush Reminder; he can just sit on EC if the wounds is all he needs, and then go into his core and finish reminder later
AninLegions7772 votesSo Lucian has BC and BoTRK and EC. Syndra Has Morellos and Ludens and blasting wand. If mundo builds spirit visage, Syndra and LB will still get him low except he ults before he's half hp. Meanwhile if Mundo builds Sunfire Cape and thornmail or Randuins, Good luck with the "Shred". Mundo will just slow lucian with his Qs and walk up to him. You seem to forget that tanks excel in destroying squishies early especially AD champs.
Alesya3691 votesMajority of fights are not 1v1s you know? That Lucian will have most likely other teammate(s) around who will peel for him.
Maybe giving exeshit a cap like morello has is not a best solution; Personally I would prefer reworking into an active item that applies GW to selected single target for 5 seconds starting at 20% power that goes up to 40% over next 2 seconds.
chipndip11 votesAfter the mid game, Lucian's done being relevant, period, though...
Big Lincoln2 voteswell that shouldn't matter much, since the boards generally agreed that games end at fifteen minutes now
chipndip11 votesBecause the boards is a case of a bunch of carry mains complaining when other carry mains snowball off of them.
top
jg
mid
adc
"Damage is just way too high, man. Everyone just blows up instantaneously."
If people actually PLAYED the tanks and jugs that they whine about so much, then fights and games wouldn't snowball out of hand so easily. Since everyone has this mentality of "carry or lose", they pick squishier champs that try to snowball and carry, then get mad when they lose.
Meanwhile they lost to
top
jg
mid
and Idk...
bot
So more carries.
Maximum Morde5 votesDrain tanking should not be a thing. Lifesteal should be only for healing up after a fight so you don't have to back.
Big Lincoln6 votesthat's too bad. all of my durability is in my sustain, and my sustain only works on champions
drain tanking should not be a thing
permanently reducing sustain should not be a thing
Maximum Morde8 votesWhen sustain is too high, permanently reducuing it is the only viable counter play.
Big Lincoln5 votesthat's not counterplay lul
dunder kill12 votesWhy do you think draintanking shouldn't exist when Morde more or less is one? He doesn't gain the damage back as HP, but he gets it as shield. Factor Gunblade in and he's more or less exactly what you say shouldn't exist. Why does this not apply to your main but it does to others hmmm?
Gregor Gysi4 votesWhelp, that's awkward. I didn't even see the name, but that's a controversial statement for a Morde main indeed..
Maximum Morde2 votesWhy do you think Riot leaves Mordekaiser in the state he's in? Not even a 50% wr in general and just acceptable on his mains. Because his design isn't healthy.
Just because a given champion is my favorite due to Pentakill theme, doesn't mean I don't see objectively.
dunder kill6 votesWhy do you think a champ needs 55% Winrate to not be considered weak?
ModAcademy Kayn2 votesBecause if you actually check every Champion, a 54-57% winrate on Dedicated (Key word here), is extremely common and makes sense. Champions with Dedicated Mains who can't breach 50% are most definitely weak, be it for a reason, meta, or nerfs.
Carl Grimes TWD15 votesI've said it before and I'll say it again. Abilities like stealth, drain tank etc needs more counters through champions rather than items. Grievous wounds falls under this.
ModAcademy Kayn2 votesBut that makes a "Win at Champion Select" scenario.
"I'll play Mundo!! Oh, and they play the character specifically meant to counter sustain." https://i.gyazo.com/cae1d815d04fa7da550bc7ab4eb151fe.jpg
kile1472 votesIf you make it 50% reduction, sure. GW doesn't have to be that hard of a counter to healing though.
You also make it sound like this situation doesn't already exist. Play Gnar into Irelia, or a melee into Quinn, or anyone into Teemo.
Hard counters exist in the game already. You either pick around them or you play around them. Mundo isn't trash every game that Varus is picked despite him having GW in his kit.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesExcept by varying the standard of GW, you cloud clarity.
Yeah, hard counters exist, but never in "This champ is meant to counter Sustain Champions" and more of "Ranged Characters do better than Melee in Lane"
kile1471 votesIt doesn't need to be variable, it could just be a 30% reduction and make it more widespread.
This Champ is meant to counter any Diving Champions
This champ is meant to counter Poke Champions
This champ is meant to counter Ranged Kiters
This champ is meant to counter Assassins
This champ is meant to counter On-Hit Users
The reason Grevious Wounds on an item is BS because Sustain is supposed to counter poke, but if everyone can get Grievous Wounds then suddenly Sustain doesn't really counter anything because you can be poked and have your healing halved constantly. What if instead there were just some champs with abilities that you could play around. Varus doesn't have OP Grievous Wounds because if you stand in his Cursed Earth you either got outplayed or played poorly, and other champs could have similar mechanics.
The Last Ballad1 votesYou made a mistake in the list
This champ is meant to counter assassins(2 second uselessifinity spell + stealth reveal + uncounterable effectively-a-heal on ult )
THIS champ is meant to counter your own teams stupidity
chipndip11 votesJanna's more dedicated to hard peel than Lulu is though...
Alesya3692 votesSoraka stopped being a poke counter after her rework and Q range nerf, W costs 10% hp, Q range was nerfed and now she can really only land it while enemy is distracted/blocked by your allies so she will go out of HP incredibly quickly in poke scenarios. Also her W now costs 70 mana while being 2 (down to 1.1) seconds CD skill... she is not that great against poke anymore.
Also after all the changes over past 2 years poking has been almost completely wiped of existence with changes to turrets, map objectives and making all mp5 items unviable on mages.
. Varus doesn't have OP Grievous Wounds because if you stand in his Cursed Earth you either got outplayed or played poorly, and other champs could have similar mechanics.
The only balanced and healthy source of Grievous Wounds. If he wants to prolong it he needs to apply CC on that enemy, it also has actual cooldown, hands down.
Carl Grimes TWD12 votesNah doesn't need to down right shutdown the enemy champion. They'll need to work around you. For example, Lee sin vs stealth such as Twitch or Akali.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesExcept Lee Sin got his Vision from his E removed. Only vision he gets is if he hits you with his Q.
Carl Grimes TWD11 votesWhich was a mistake. But he still has his Q so there's that.
Prestige AkaIi2 votesIt wasn't ok for lee to have true sight on his e. All he had to do was press e in the middle of Akali's shroud and reveal her, now at least he needs to hit a skill shot. It was too strong of a counter to her specifically, at least other invisibility reliant champs have some mobility while invisible, akali just had to wait in the safety of her bubble and lee would take that safety away with the push of a button. Its the same reason pinks were removed.
Carl Grimes TWD11 votesOf course it was ok - it's called counterplay for a reason. Akali could easily play around Lee Sin to avoid his E, could use Zhonya's whilst revealed; wait for Lee to use his E before going in during teamfights; or avoid Lee altogether.
chipndip11 votesBUT LEE NEVER GETS NEEEEEEEERRRRRRR-
G&B in a nutshell.
[slayer-jinx-unamused]
Skias4 votesIf I have to shove a Warwick, Vlad or Fiora below 40% to start wounds as a melee, that sounds like ass.
Big Lincoln1 votesIf I just heal for 40% less because my enemy can rightclick me, that sounds like ass, too.
You could just raise the cap for melees to, like, 60%, then. or 50, more reasonable.
Skias2 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cXn0au4H,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-03-23T21:50:25.738+0000)
If I just heal for 40% less because my enemy can rightclick me, that sounds like ass, too.
You could just raise the cap for melees to, like, 60%, then. or 50, more reasonable.
That's not as bad, but 15 AD and GW at 60% isn't worth it. Executioner's and Morellos are safety releases for cancerous drain tanks. As it is, we haven't had a truly healthy drain tank yet that didn't get pounded with nerfs because it's a broken, feast or famine concept.
Big Lincoln1 votesThat's not as bad, but 15 AD and GW at 60% isn't worth it
Sure, but it's not exactly fair for me to jump into the middle of the fight as, say, Illaoi, and then my only mechanism for surviving just gets shit on with no effort and no real risk/reward for either of us; I just.. heal less. Despite the health she builds, Illaoi's fairly squishy without her heals.
and I'm fucking salty about playing against an enemy Darius who nuked my sustain for 8-9 seconds with one auto just because of EC and his bleed, I went from carrying to being carried
Skias1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cXn0au4H,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-23T22:21:12.065+0000)
Sure, but it's not exactly fair for me to jump into the middle of the fight as, say, Illaoi, and then my only mechanism for surviving just gets shit on with no effort and no real risk/reward for either of us; I just.. heal less. Despite the health she builds, Illaoi's fairly squishy without her heals.
and I'm fucking salty about playing against an enemy Darius who nuked my sustain for 8-9 seconds with one auto just because of EC and his bleed, I went from carrying to being carried
Darius is a whole other kettle of fish. I personally think he's always been a naturally abusive champion that is always destined to be toxic. But CertainlyT's champions tend to be that way. He makes champs that are fun to abuse someone with but always awful on the receiving end.
Honestly, if they shifted Illaoi's strength out of her heal and into her kit, EC would be less of a problem. That's the whole thing with Grievous wounds and champs with drain tankesque power. It has to be mitigated or it becomes a brick wall. If it's mitigated, it feels like shit for the drainer.
I'm straight-up not trying to be like "it's not a problem" because it totally is shitty that you can't play your champ because of an 800g item.
This is how I feel when I play Taric. He's absolutely my favorite champion, but I'm tired of having 80% of my armor being stripped because top has BC and the rest of the team has lethality and LW, making me absolutely useless.
You have my sympathy and I do wish they would help out some sustain tops be able to fight shit like EC Darius.
Big Lincoln1 votesDarius is a whole other kettle of fish. I personally think he's always been a naturally abusive champion that is always destined to be toxic.
I play Darius a lot too so I have zero issue with him. It's purely the fact that his bleed extends Grievous Wounds for an ungodly amount of time that really pissed me off that game. They could probably just make it autos-only and I'd find it acceptable.
Honestly, if they shifted Illaoi's strength out of her heal and into her kit, EC would be less of a problem.
iffy about this. The thing about Illaoi having a TON of potential healing is that it's all very unreliable, even with her ult since you can just walk away from her assuming she didn't E you first and then instagib you with the double damage. If they reduced her ability to sustain then they would have to buff all of her base stats to compensate, which I think is a direction Riot's been steadily moving away from.
Skias1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cXn0au4H,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-23T23:15:25.450+0000)
I play Darius a lot too so I have zero issue with him. It's purely the fact that his bleed extends Grievous Wounds for an ungodly amount of time that really pissed me off that game. They could probably just make it autos-only and I'd find it acceptable.
iffy about this. The thing about Illaoi having a TON of potential healing is that it's all very unreliable, even with her ult since you can just walk away from her assuming she didn't E you first and then instagib you with the double damage. If they reduced her ability to sustain then they would have to buff all of her base stats to compensate, which I think is a direction Riot's been steadily moving away from.
There is a lot of wonky cases like that. MF's ult applies BC, which distorts her entire power budget, leading to repeated nerfs. Darius bleed applies EC for some fucking reason. These damn AD items need to be on auto attacks only and stop applying on weird shit.
LightSword1 votesDarius bleed applies EC because it's physical damage, the reason I think Darius is the most broken BC abuser.
Skias1 votesDarius bleed applies EC because it's physical damage, the reason I think Darius is the most broken BC abuser.
Why would Riot even allow BC to apply on physical damage and not autos? It completely defeats the purpose of it having a stacking delay to give Counterplay.
I know a lot of people love Black Cleaver, but that item is super problematic. It's like Rylai's, it props up a lot of shitty kits but it's also cancer.
No one has to fear Riot changing it anytime soon. As much as I'd love it, I don't see Riot touching BC again this season.
LightSword1 votesThey did it in the first place because it wasn't being used when it was an attack speed item meant for adc's. They wanted it to work for ad bruisers/assassins such as talon and pantheon. (also darius passive deal magic damage until more recently)
Skias1 votesThey did it in the first place because it wasn't being used when it was an attack speed item meant for adc's. They wanted it to work for ad bruisers/assassins such as talon and pantheon. (also darius passive deal magic damage until more recently)
Seems like a poor item design if it isn't used unless abilities break it. Also, it wouldn't be as generalist if it didn't synergize with ADCs building LW and getting 50%+ armor pen not counting masteries/lethality.
LightSword1 votesI'm referencing the original version of the item that was overhauled in season 3 (when BC stacking became common if I remember right).
kile1472 votesWarwick's passive sustain doesn't kick in until he's at 50%, Vlad damages himself, and Fiora's healing is only strong if she lands ult. It's not perfect certainly but EC is too strong right now.
Alesya3691 votesTake Ignite, use ignite when they are above 40% and then finish off with exeshit. But seriously the whole GW bullshit needs to be reworked.
Skias1 votesTake Ignite, use ignite when they are above 40% and then finish off with exeshit. But seriously the whole GW bullshit needs to be reworked.
Seems like a ton of resources to be dedicated to trying to burst someone down. If you fail, you are unable to fight that person for 3m. Not to mention, Riot is totally against summoner spells being the only counter to champions. There always has to be an option in game.
Alesya3691 votesBurst should be the counter to sustain, currently you can outDPS/outsustain even strongest sustain champions if you get 800 gold item, how was that even allowed?
Also I would prefer to execall/MR/morello rereworked into active items like they were in past.
