How MEANINGFULLY Nerf Sona

CrazedPorcupine··4 votes·1,748 views

Look, Riot, You've nerfed sona so many times that the Community has made "Better Nerf Sona" Commonplace. The problem is, You're nerfing Sona in ALL THE WRONG WAYS. Don't hit her Aura's or abilities, NERF HER MANA. Sona is oppressive in lane because her mana costs are outrageously low, and her mana regen is way too high.

If you want to MEANINGFULLY NERF Sona, and tone down her Sustain and poke in lane, then what you need to do is:

  1. Change Q's Mana costs from 45/50/55/60/65 to 50/60/70/80/90
  2. Change W's Mana costs from 80/85/90/95/100 to 50/65/80/95/110
  3. Change W's Heal amounts from 30/50/70/90/110+(.2 AP) to 45/60/75/90/105(+.3 AP) and shield from 35/55/75/95/115 (+ .2 AP) to 50/65/80/95/110 (+ .3AP)
  4. Decrease her Mana regen from 9+.4/lvl to 6+.2/lvl

Sona's low mana costs, High poke damage, high mana regen, making laning with her a nightmare, but her nerfs to her utility make her useless after the laning phase because her heal is so low. My changes are overall a net buff to sona's late game sustain, but a nerf to her early sustain.

I don't care if you downvote me, Sona's oppressive laning nature if she's laning against any champ that's not braum or leona make her incredibly frustrating.

EDIT: Okay people, You guys instantly see a thread that talks about further "Nerfing Sona" and you go absolutely insane and just downvote galore. You're constantly stating that Sona needs buffs, She's too weak in lane, and get's destroyed by anybody early.

The Problem with your thoughts community, is that Riot seems to disagree heavily. Riot seems to see Sona as opressive and lacking counterplay, and thus keeps nerfing her. The community keeps getting angry, and Riot has yet to explain their nerfs Properly. I see the nerfs as just taking the WRONG direction. Everything that I've said for her W changes, are actually buffs up to rank 5 of the ability where my suggestions have it cost 10 more mana than now, and only heal for 5 flat HP less. This is overall a TINY nerf, and is balanced by the .1 AP ratio cost, as it only takes 50 AP to equal out that heal, and That 50 AP is pretty easy to pick up with a support build.

The Big Problem Riot has with Sona is her Q's lack of counterplay, and it's free damage and poke when combined with the Frost Queen's Claim line. By increasing her Q's mana costs it punishes Sona more for mindlessly spamming it in lane, thus nerfing her damage, However by increasing her W's early heals, and decreasing it's early mana costs, make her actually BETTER sustained in lane.

The PROBLEM is NOT that Sona is getting nerfed, It's the fact that NERFS aren't affecting sona in any meaningful way.

40 Comments

windwolf77714 votes
Diostukos8 votes

Sona Low mana costs

Sona W: Mana cost- 80/ Heal- 30 Nami W: Mana cost- 70/ Heal- 65 Taric Q: Mana cost- 60/ Heal- 60 Alistar E: Mana cost- 40/ Heal- 60 Soraka W: Mana cost- 20/ Heal- 120 [also costs health]

Highest mana cost and lowest base heal? K.

Also you're simply stating what Riot said in the last patch notes.

"Well uh when she's not against her counter she actually has a chance; we can't have her do that now can we?"

Sona was designed to be a good early laner with a good mid game and a mediocre late game.

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

Let's not forget Sona's heal is on as short a cooldown as Soraka's, and has better scaling by having it increase by .5% for every 1% of HP the target is missing.

And if you pay attention to my post, I proposed BUFFING her heals AND her Shield. I just am pissed off that her Q is so stupidly frustrating to deal with.

And honestly, The mana cost of her E is not that bad if you just sit back and let your mana regenerate. I rarely ever see Sona go OOM before level 6. and After she get's a chalice, Her mana costs become worthless.

Ratbert5 votes

"buffing" changing it to worse late for marginally better early but gutting mana so that she can't actually heal at all. Her cd on her heal isn't the gate, it's the mana. Her q poke is worthless, making it cost 50 mana for a 40 damage spell is incredibly bad.

I'm relatively certain her shield has a small base (but higher than that trash 20 you proposed) and her actual mana cost (taken right from the league client, in-game and wiki) is 80+5*skill level. Also, the percent boost is very deceptive, as it basically means the heal AT BEST has values of 45/75/105/135/165 + a measly 0.3 ap ratio. Taric and Nami also always have more base mana than sona, the better or same regens and always better heals (base and potentially scalings) and fairly comparable cds. While the mana costs ramp up faster, until level 5, sona's heal will always cost more or the same. Sona's one rotation costs roughly half her mana, so she has poppy style mana management now.

In addition, sona's damage is easily eclipsed by an aa. They trashed her solo damage already and forced her to build sheen>lich bane to put out the "poke" she had always had. Saying 128.2+98% ap hurts and is "frustrating" is preposterous when morg or lux can hit snares to do comparable bases (~134) and scalings(~85) especially when sona has to expend at least 135 mana for her passive.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

I increased her Heal, AND her shield amount, that means late, when Sona as some AP items, she'll actually be more effective.

Also, Her heal right now has a .2 AP ratio, not a .3 a .1 AP ratio increase is pretty sizable, especially on a spammy heal like Sona's.

Ratbert4 votes

you did not increase the base shield amount as it is not 0, but 35. If sona goes ap, like a support shouldn't have to, she dies in half a hit. Besides, everyone is more effective with offensive items so it's a moot point.

You keep saying spammy, but it's no more spammy than nami, ali or soraka's. A 0.1 ratio is puny when it's to a 0.3. Wow 10 more heal per 100 ap, but leveraged by being only able to cast it once a year.

Erockandroll4 votes

{quoted}

I increased her Heal, AND her shield amount, that means late, when Sona as some AP items, she'll actually be more effective.

Also, Her heal right now has a .2 AP ratio, not a .3 a .1 AP ratio increase is pretty sizable, especially on a spammy heal like Sona's.

AP ratios will have a Massive Disparity from YoloQ pub stomping, and pro play. (Considering Pro level supports can't actually build significant levels of AP) I would also Be weary about Buffing her Auras where they can affect Many targets.

I wouldn't even worry so much about Late game, Considering your a support, your most Overt Power should be in the Laning phase. And it was the Laning phase Damage

windwolf7771 votes

{quoted}

Let's not forget Sona's heal is on as short a cooldown as Sona's,

U WOT M8!? I trust you mean Soraka on one of them Sona's??

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Yes, I did.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

Sona pokes in lane right now because it's her only viable option at the moment. If she tries to play defensive and heal instead, she'll waste her entire mana pool healing maybe half your health. So just hit her once or twice and watch her starve herself.

(slightly exaggerating)

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Except, her base mana regen and the regen from items, along with the fact that her Q damage CANNOT be dodged, means that her Q has an oppressive amount of lacking counterplay, and thus leads to Riot constantly nerfing other parts of Sona. Her W honestly can be buffed, and my changes do actually buff her early ranks in W.

At Rank 1, Her Q Poke+autos can deal over 150 damage that's not dodgable in any way and has no way to retaliate. That damage just keeps going up, and since it costs literally NOTHING to spam Q, Sona's main form of play in lane is low counterplay and frustrating, and so Riot keeps Nerfing Sona's heal to provide counterplay to sona by making it possible to retaliate the damage she puts out.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

I do agree Sona is in a bad spot right now. Her overall kit is problematic, because she either ends up poking too hard, healing too much, or flat-out underpowered in both departments. She's no fun to play and no fun to play against. Players are forced to use the most BS part of her kit as frequently as possible, because not doing that means they lose.

Riot has tried to move more of Sona's power into her Q aura, to force her into auto-attack range more often, but it doesn't change much. Lowering the overall damage of her Q, even if you lower the cooldown and mana cost to match exactly, would still be a nerf, and would make her even weaker to all-ins than she already is. Sona's poke damage is only valuable because she can use it to poke, and frequently. In all-out fights bot lane it's not nearly strong enough to actually be effective. But it can't be buffed, because it's oppressive when used over time.

Sona is pretty firmly stuck in a terrible position; ineffective in most scenarios, but oppressive in the rest, and for the same reasons. Low cooldowns, in exchange for relatively low impact. Very nearly unbalanceable without some serious changes.

Abyssphere4 votes

{quoted}

Let's not forget Sona's heal is on as short a cooldown as Soraka's, and has better scaling by having it increase by .5% for every 1% of HP the target is missing.

And if you pay attention to my post, I proposed BUFFING her heals AND her Shield. I just am pissed off that her Q is so stupidly frustrating to deal with.

And honestly, The mana cost of her E is not that bad if you just sit back and let your mana regenerate. I rarely ever see Sona go OOM before level 6. and After she get's a chalice, Her mana costs become worthless.

Have you actually looked at Sona's abilities at all? Her heal has a 10 second cooldown, Soraka's heal has a 4-2 second cooldown. They could not be further apart.

Pika3103 votes

Let's not forget Sona's heal is on as short a cooldown as Soraka's,

Sona: 10 seconds Soraka: 4/3.5/3/2.5/2 seconds

and has better scaling by having it increase by .5% for every 1% of HP the target is missing.

Sona: min. 30 (+ 20% AP); max 45 (+ 30% AP) Soraka: 120 (+ 60% AP)

RedCyclone6 votes

Jesus FUCK!

Beerstein6 votes

Looking for meaningful ways to buff sona thread. I'm thinking replace her with a cannon minion, that should greatly increase her survivability.

It Is I Emoto5 votes

I like how you got the numbers wrong! Sonas heal costs 80 mana at rank one and her Q does sloppy 40 damage at rank one is that oppressive? I thought an aa from the enemy adc is even more oppressive than an Sona Q

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

I got her Numbers Directly from League's Champion section on the website. And since that's tied to the ingame info, The numbers I have are accurate.

GaleWinUnleashed5 votes

#Aria of Perseverance Cost: 80/85/90/95/100 Mana Range: 1000

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/sona/

It Is I Emoto5 votes

Well, you should get the numbers right my dear. And stop writing in caps, it's like that you're yelling.

First; Sonas only thing she can do in lane is to use her Q as often as possible, so she can harrass the enemy lane. That's her job and identity, but with the rework they have strenghten that playstyle with throwing additionally some aa.

Second; Sona has been nerfed already and her Q is fairly balanced. If you're not running any magic resist runes, then it's probably your own fault. They even nerfed her Q powerchord so that Sona players either max her W or E first.

Third; Sona was never oppressive. Her Q does not pull you, snare you, chunk of alot of hp with one time cast - it does sustained damage if used frequently. There is no counterplay, thats true, but being carefully would help you with not being hit by it. Hiding in bushes will take the aggro of her Q too, since she would have no vision of you.

Beerstein5 votes

Nerf, why would you even consider nerfing her? She needs buffs.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

I said MEANINGFUL Nerf, I upped her late game healing/shielding potential by increasing her Heal's Scaling (Reducing it's base by a tiny 5 hp) AND increasing her shield values.

Nerfing her early mana costs while keeping them relatively the same late is a meaningful nerf that tones down her early, but increases her late game power.

Beerstein4 votes

{quoted}

I said MEANINGFUL Nerf, I upped her late game healing/shielding potential by increasing her Heal's Scaling (Reducing it's base by a tiny 5 hp) AND increasing her shield values.

Nerfing her early mana costs while keeping them relatively the same late is a meaningful nerf that tones down her early, but increases her late game power.

Yes better tone down the early game of the champion that dies to every champion in the game at lvl 1.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Did I say nerf her HP? Her Movement Speed, Her Armor or Any other survivability stat? NO. In fact, her Early heals being BETTER, mean that she's actually STRONGER in lane. Her DAMAGE get's nerfed.

It Is I Emoto4 votes

tbh don't try that what the balance team did - it was horrible for many sona players

Rozzeta5 votes

Yeah, Sona oppresses CC tanks in lane way too hard... wait a minute...

PD, minimum cost for Sona's Combo is 135 Mana at level 1, and you're proposing it go to 150? If you're going to seriously affect how strong she is against the people she's supposed to be strong, I'd expect you'd add some sort of protection against the people she's supposed to be weak against.

ZephyrDrake5 votes

dude... you have not played Sona at all right? her Heal is something you DO NOT WANT TO USE in the laning phase at all. The instant you are forced to Heal you LOST THE LANE. You increasing her mana cost is only going to MURDER her now please go and play the damn champion before you even open your mouth again. Her Q deals crap damage and is only useful because it doesn't have cost similar's to W's... Sona is a POKE support you DO NOT HIT HER POKE

the Anarchit3cht4 votes

have you even ever played sona or even like, looked at her stats? Sounds like you're speaking from "A sona destroyed me in game so wah wah wah"

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

So, why does riot Keep nerfing Sona if She's "Extremely Weak" like everyone says she is?

Pika3103 votes

It says that Riot's "balance" and "rework" teams have a personal hatred of her and desire her failure. It says they want her to be so weak, you'll be able to use item 3060 's active on her. It says Riot wants her play-rate to be 0%.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

It says that Iot has absolutely no idea how to actually nerf Sona's Overbearing strengths.

Riot is juts making Sona even SQUISHIER.

At this point, EVERY part of Sona has been nerfed EXCEPT her Q's Mana costs. The One thing they're doing to "help" Sona is increasing her Mana regen.

Pika3101 votes

"Increasing" it by **negative **0.2?

I'm sorry, did we step into Bizarro World?

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

I fail to see the support for Sona buffs. The community keep saying Sona's weak, but you forget, that as soon as tanky CC supports go out of the Meta (which they rarely ever will) Sona becomes a top notch power pick because of her game changing ultimate.

Riot knows That Sona's complete lack of counterplay means that if she's ever popular, she has to be nerfed. There's a reason that Sona was a top tier pick in the LCS. She lacks counterplay.

Sona's abilities are outright frustrating to play against when played well. If she wins the first few levels, she becomes next to unstoppable in lane, and completely oppressive.

If you guys want Sona to be BUFFED like you're all saying she needs to, Then you do realize that her Q is going to have to be GUTTED and literally made USELESS in order for that to happen right?

RIOT HATES Lack of Counterplay, and Sona's immense lack of telegraphed attacks, uncounterable abilities, and game changing ultimate, means that Riot cannot buff her without Sona returning to a must pick/ban support.

You remove her weaknesses to heavy engage supports, and she becomes the best freaking champion in the game and is a must pick alongside Leona.

Sona's laning is her real only weakness. She makes it out of that, and she becomes one of the best supports in the game, since she has a minature Talisman on a 10 second cooldown, a Giant AoE Stun ult that comes out stupidly fast, and a miniature Locket.

You guys need to realize that MEANINGFUL nerfs to sona, that impact trouble areas, while enhancing areas she SHOULD be strong in, are what actually needs to happen, not toning down all of her numbers because they lack counterplay.

WHAT has happened to Sona is what's happening to Ryze. Ryze is getting completely reworked because he lacked counterplay.

Nova Skye1 votes

I always build Tear. It might not be needed on her, but I'm ALWAYS out of manna somehow, even with her lower costs. Of course, I'm a Q spammer - ADC tries to take front minion? Q. Then Q again for good measure.

Spookzie1 votes

I thought they intended sona to be a spam abilities type champ.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Oh look, more Sona nerfs on the PBE.

Too bad they're not actually fixing the problem with Sona.

Dromar4211 votes

This is the part that should be nerfed, Power Chord - Diminuendo: Reduces an enemy's total damage output by 20% (+[0]%) for 3 seconds. She can change through 3 aura's pretty fast, also if she decides to build full Ap/cdr (Lets face it Sona Players do this 98% of the time) this becomes over bearing. Not only is she healing herself or allies but she is also debuffing anyone trying to kill her or a chosen target. After lane phase its pretty much kill her as soon as possible or her team just runs all over you. But then she has exhaust and a speed buff, good luck chasing her as she runs away spamming heals and her team mobs you.

Standard o Honor

I feel like since the MS speed she's in a good spot. I get caught more often than before the change... and my win rate has suffered slightly. I have to put myself into danger to get off my damage, and getting caught before lvl 3 by leona, thresh, or blitz literally blows me up or makes me use my flash. By lvl 4 if I haven't used my summoners I usually feel pretty good and that I'll be able to safely manage any trades and get out safely if caught(exceptions are vs corki and graves). Then lvl 6 just depends on enemies ults and lane position.

If you simply cut her mana regen back I feel like she will literally have no impact in lane, especially if forced to heal up with "w" after a bad trade. A Sona with no mana is literally useless in lane unless enemies are already poked down significantly. She can't zone at all without her q up, and can't survive 2 secs without her 'w' both which cost mana.

Sona can poke and sustain short trades or trades longer than her CDs if she can stay mobile and dodge some enemy skillshots. 5 - 6 sec trades will usually go in the enemies favor if they can get in and out before my 2nd q comes up, any longer and another w comes up.

I rarely get chalice as I feel its a bit of a trap. as support I feel like you're job is to get vision. If you have too much mana regen you end up staying out longer than your vision lasts. This eventually leads to you or your allies getting caught out. So, my style is generally to build up a little more health after getting talisman and SS to avoid instantly blowing up. (this usually fails if enemy teams mid or jungle gets fed though). Mana pots are surprisingly awesome I've found recently, you only need to use em if you know you need to stay with team a little longer.

TLDR: Sona is weak lvl 1-3 unless she gets a lot of free poke off early on, strong lvl 4-6, then is pretty average after that point in my opinion. She is stronger in teamfights than a lot of supports if she doesn't blow up during her first spell rotation. I feel making her reliant entirely on chalice or tear forces players to commit to a build path and thus boring as she'll not have any strategic decisions in game. Also, she will be useless if the game advances before she gets those items.

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