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Some things i would like to ask @RIOT about champion balance

SSShutTheDuckUp·Nov 30, 2015·1 votes·302 views

First of all, I do not want to be salty by any means. I just read some PBE updates about champion, and at first look they make sense - highest winrate champions got nerfed. But I have a question: What value of winrates do you aim at with the changes? I have read that one rioter (sorry, do not remember who) had stated about Azir that due to high high skill cap his winrate should be under 50%. But what about the other champions?

And something else. Looking at current winrates i notice something. Among the first champions there i see, that most of them are actually picked pretty rarely, and some of them - banned pretty rarely. So the conclusion is that majority of the community does not mind (too much) to play against them.

And there are other champions, that stand on pretty high or pretty low pick/ban ratios. Should something be done to them too? And i am not talking about the ones, who are on purpose in underpowered state like pre-rework Poppy or Yorick.

I would also like to read some @RIOTER opinion about that. I don't want to whine, i am just asking.

Thank you for your time reading and answering. Have a wonderful day!

7 Comments

WoonStruckNov 30, 20152 votes

Pick/ban should not be considered in balance. Its the winrate outside of a high pick/ban that should be considered. When something is obnoxious, whether its due to the kit or because its OP as hell, it sees a high pick/ban usually.

Because of that, people think its OP, whether it actually is or not. Because of this, people pick it constantly when its not banned. If its winning all the time with people who barely know the champ playing it because they think its OP, then yes, it should be looked at.

Pick/ban alone is an even worse indicator than win-rate alone.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 30, 20151 votes

I never said it should be considered alone. Also my question was more about the lowest win/ban rations. I do not remember when i last saw Sion, Syndra or Cass in a game. And i just listed 3 champions, but i could extend this to maybe 40-50 who have pickrate less that 5%

WoonStruckNov 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=UselessAsF ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cPQhAV50,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-30T21:55:40.741+0000)

I never said it should be considered alone. Also my question was more about the lowest win/ban rations. I do not remember when i last saw Sion, Syndra or Cass in a game. And i just listed 3 champions, but i could extend this to maybe 40-50 who have pickrate less that 5%

A lot of the cast not being played can be credited to specific champs being massively powerful compared to them. Meta isn't formed by the state of champions, its formed by the state of a specific 15 at the top, usually. Take care of the problematic ones (the ones in play) to approach the median, then pay attention to the outliers.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 30, 20151 votes

RIOT stated, that they wish every game to feel unique. And how is that gonna happen when out of 130 champs the META is defined by 30? Why do we have then the rest 100? The whole thing, that META is formed by so small part of the characters in game is bad, IMO. It is true, that some champs are underplayed, because they are outperformed by others, but doesn't that mean that this should be the target of balance?

But even then - shouldn't the highest ban/played champions considered as "problematic ones", when they are so strong, that they define how is the game played? I see some flaws in your opinions - first you say, that play/ban ratio is not a good indicator who is strong, and then you call champs in play "problematic". I do not want to offend you or argue, just to discuss.

WoonStruckDec 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=UselessAsF ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cPQhAV50,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-30T22:50:18.524+0000)

RIOT stated, that they wish every game to feel unique. And how is that gonna happen when out of 130 champs the META is defined by 30? Why do we have then the rest 100? The whole thing, that META is formed by so small part of the characters in game is bad, IMO. It is true, that some champs are underplayed, because they are outperformed by others, but doesn't that mean that this should be the target of balance?

But even then - shouldn't the highest ban/played champions considered as "problematic ones", when they are so strong, that they define how is the game played? I see some flaws in your opinions - first you say, that play/ban ratio is not a good indicator who is strong, and then you call champs in play "problematic". I do not want to offend you or argue, just to discuss.

The current 'meta' is trash for exactly what you described. You're actually agreeing with me while misinterpreting my words. I was saying its a bad balance indicator, not there aren't heavy flaws with the current system and state of the game.

Riot needs to tone down ALL of the champs that are commonly played so that we arrive much closer to a median where at least 40% of the cast is played. The bottom end then needs to be brought up, the top end after the event carefully tuned over the following months, and then the process repeated.

Eventually you'd arrive at a state where ~10-20% are frequently played, 50-60% commonly played, and 20-40% are uncommon, as certain ones are being directly funneled towards a niche, may not appeal, or may be on the chopping block for a total overhaul. But Riot only wants to deal with the top 20% of their cast, including champs that are extremely rare to see but have above average win rates, which is the reason there's so little balance variance.

qetzelNov 30, 20151 votes

Riot consider pick/ban rates in conjunction with win rates and other data to determine which champions are strong.

When changing a champion you also need to consider how new and experienced players perform on them. Taking the example of Skarner, experienced players were/are getting a win rate of 63%, which suggests that you get more out of Skarner when you practice him than you do out of, say, Gragas. If a champion has a 50% win rate for new players, that also suggests that something is off. Of course, if the champion is similar to many others, this is less important.

On your other question, I recall a Rioter (Gypsylord? The creator of Jinx, anyway) say that teamfight champions were expected to have a higher win rate. Wombo combos and AOE teamfighting are easier to pull off in soloqueue, so will naturally give higher win rates.

If an entire class is out of line it suggests that something is wrong systematically. For example, tank junglers are a bit on the strong side right now, so Riot, learning from past mistakes, are changing the masteries rather than the champions.

I would be careful about saying that the community doesn't mind champions with a low pick and ban rate. A low pickrate means that you aren't going to see a champion that often. Wasting a ban is stupid. Even though I find Zilean frustrating to play against (I don't think he is OP, just annoying) I am not going to ban him because I only see him once every 30 games (or even less!). Furthermore, if you see a champion less often then you are less likely to try to pick them up. A champion with a low pick rate almost always maintains their low pick rate unless they are borderline broken. Contrast this with a champion like Yasuo - even when he was really bad a lot of people still picked him. Less than now, obviouly, but more than almost any other champion performing that badly.

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 30, 20151 votes

Riot consider pick/ban rates in conjunction with win rates and other data to determine which champions are strong.

I think that this answers the whole topic. About the rest - I understand what you are saying and thank you for the honest opinion.

Because you mentioned Zilean i would like to add something. The whole thing, that there are champions you see once in every 30 games is sad. And there are zileans of them.

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