Explain how Lee is OP but J4 isn't.

Joe Dredd·Jan 12, 2015·10 votes·2,650 views

Explain how 54% win rate is worse than 46%. They both have high pick rates so you can't say "everyone plays lee sin but only j4 mains play j4 hurr durr insert another retarded excuse" Edit: and before you idiots say "hurr durr bronze bring down win rate", let me inform you that Lee has a 47% win rate in diamond. J4 is just as disruptive as Lee with his Ult, if not better. J4 is actually naturally tanky unlike Lee Sin who you idiots say is tanky. J4 gets a non ult knockup, free attack speed (doesn't even have to use skills) increased free attack speed for entire team if he drops E, free armor, Armor shred, high ratios, and % current health damage just for auto attacking. But please go on to explain how J4 is worse than Lee and can barely keep up.

72 Comments

Knight DevoutJan 12, 20156 votes

J4 is just as disruptive as Lee with his Ult, if not better.

Said no one ever. I mean, where are we, season 1? Nowadays everyone and their brother have a blink to get out of there IF you pick them with flash off cd. meanwhile Last Whisper lee Sin with his ult breaks a team in half (AoE damage FTW)

Joe DreddJan 12, 20151 votes

Nowadays everyone and their brother have a blink to get out of there IF you pick them with flash off cd. meanwhile Last Whisper lee Sin with his ult breaks a team in half (AoE damage FTW)

And during a gank to you use your EQ, slow, let them use their gap closer and then ult. Guaranteed flash blown, then swing back up when your ult is back. Also, if you think J4 can't half health a team instantly while building only LW and Hydra then I don't know how you're even level 30.

Knight DevoutJan 12, 20153 votes

Shred half health of an entire team? When did that happen? Before or after you took the drugs?

BlastermineJan 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knight Devout,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cM30yfYL,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-12T18:32:22.956+0000)

Shred half health of an entire team? When did that happen? Before or after you took the drugs?

Have people really never built real damage items on Jarvan IV? Also that was cleary hyperbole. Jarvan can only half health 2-3 enemy player with just item 3074 item 3035 . His e-q combo isn't wide enough for the 5-man Orianna #LCSBIGPLAYS.

Knight DevoutJan 12, 20151 votes

They do build him full damage, get dunked, start to build tanky when it's too late. Hydra+last whisper is great if you are snowballing, but if you are playing as jungler by the time you finished them the enemy mid has three item, the enemy adc has three item, and you die the moment you use E+Q

GorszJan 12, 20152 votes

Yeah right, theres like 50-60 champions without a blink.

OnegarionJan 12, 20152 votes

and how many of those see decent if not high lvl of play?

GorszJan 12, 20151 votes

Who cares? When Riot comes out and say only 20 champions matter in this game then it will be official.

Theres more to this game than the .000000001% of LCS players, and jarvan by himself basically invalidates half the champion roster.

OnegarionJan 12, 20152 votes

You are avoiding the point completely. I'm not talking about LC$ big plays here. I'm talking about champs that actually see even plat+ consistently without some form of Gap closer.

GorszJan 13, 20151 votes

Well your high level play definition is not the same as others high level play definition.

I didnt even think people consider anything but diamond 1 - LCS as high level play.

OnegarionJan 14, 20151 votes

I'm giving a really big buffer to allow for a lot of different options and letting them have a fighting chance. Sticking with D1+ would just be unfair

junglerboy16Jan 12, 20155 votes

Lee sin is broken, J4 is OP. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Lee sin is broken because he has far too many tools crammed into one kit, this has nothing to do with numbers or being strong in a certain meta, this is simply a kit that is unbalanceable (Either hugely OP, or very weak).

J4 is OP right now because he is too strong number wise. He clears better than everyone else, he ganks better, and he scales better. His kit only needs number tuning though, not changes to what is in it or not in it.

Joe DreddJan 12, 20151 votes

And Lee Sin definitely isn't hugely OP, so he must be very weak. So why are people begging for nerfs.

junglerboy16Jan 12, 20152 votes

Not necessarily. Lee is right now mid swing between being very strong and very weak. He is precariously strong enough to remain viable and still really annoying. People want nerfs so that he is totally weak until they can rework his kit and fix him.

Basically, he is right on the cusp of being really OP or really UP, and no I don't mean balanced, because his balance right now is on a hair trigger and could tip either way pretty easily. Nerfs would ensure that he is stuck at UP and won't randomly become OP again. I almost never care about whether the enemy has Lee sin at the moment, but if they gave him even a tiny buff, he could dominate the meta again and make a ton of champs unviable. J4 can also force other people out of the meta, but at least he is just strong based on numbers, not a broken kit.

NaelarstraszJan 12, 20155 votes

Let's look at Lee Sin...

Free Resource sustain/ Attack speed True sight / dash / % of health missing Shield / Shield on teammate/ Dash / Health sustain Aoe True Sight / AoE Slow Multi-target damage / multi-target knock up / single target knock back.

14 goodies of utility before damage ratios.

Now we look at J4. Current health % with a Cooldown Armor shred / Dash ON COMBO AOE slow / Shield Self armor / Self Attack speed / Aura attack speed Dash / Walling in that is easily escapable

9 goodies of utility before damage ratios. Mind you, Jarvan's passive has a cooldown on his target, he's gated by mana where Lee Sin has energy AND ENERGY REGEN, Jarvan's kit is an all-in kit, where as Lee Sin can go in and get out with ease.

So here's where it stands. Jarvan is extremely easy to kill compared to Lee Sin. Jarvan doesn't have sustain freely like Lee Sin. Now let's put in Damage Ratio's.

Lee Sin! Q: Level 1: 100 + 180% bonus AD + 8% of missing Health. Level 5: 340 + 180% bonus AD + 8% of missing health W: No damage ratio's, however, notable life steal here. E: Level 1: 60 + 100% bonus AD, Level 5: 200 + 100% bonus AD R: Level 1: (200 + 200% bonus AD)(Targets hit). Level 3: (600 + 200% bonus AD)(Targets hit)

Level 18 Ability burst on ONE target: 1140 + 480% bonus AD + 8% of missing health

Jarvan! Q: Level 1: 70 + 120% bonus AD. Level 5: 250 + 120% bonus AD W: No Damage Ratio E: Level 1: 60 + 80% AP. Level 5: 240 + 80% AP R: Level 1: 200 + 150% bonus AD. Level 3: 450 + 150% bonus AD

Level 18 ability burst on ONE target: 890 + 270% bonus AD + 80% AP

Clearly it is easy to see that Jarvan is beat by Lee Sin damage wise and utility wise even still. Not even the random 80% AP ratio Jarvan has can help him against a Lee Sin of equal skill level.

**However. Despite the obvious superiority in SOLO FIGHTING that Lee Sin has, Jarvan is better at team fighting because of his kit. Lee Sin's kit can help his team, but not to the level Jarvan can do. Lee Sin is good at picking a fight, trying to be alone with a target. Jarvan is good at engaging the enemy team with his own.

The two champs are strange to compare, because they are not designed for the same purpose.**

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20153 votes

Because I can't get a penta kill by having my bunny rabbit jump on my keyboard with J4.

Joe DreddJan 12, 20151 votes

Then you're actually fking terrible

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20152 votes

I'm not sure how you are commenting on my skill level if my bunny is the one that is doing it?

You have that business major logic.

Joe DreddJan 12, 20151 votes

then your bunny is actually fking terrible

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20152 votes

Lol, looking at your J4 stats, you are about as good as my rabbit xD

"Champ X is OP because I lost to them. You suck if you can't play them! I have a 40% win rate and a terrible KDA with champ"

Again, business major logic.

SmokingPuffinJan 12, 20153 votes

J4 is pretty OP right now.

Lee is still the stronger champ in the hands of a good player, but most Lee players aren't good enough to justify the pick.

deadlychuckJan 12, 20153 votes

Well for one thing J4 has one move which doesn't scale at all.

J4 also has mana where lee sin has infinite energy with his passive

Joe DreddJan 12, 20151 votes

It scales with champions being near him. Also, being manaless is not a reason for a champion to be fucking terrible. Having mana is not a reason for a champion to be great. +j4 mana costs really aren't that bad.

deadlychuckJan 12, 20152 votes

It doesn't scale into the late game is what i mean.

While i don't think a champion's resource is what determines how good they are, it's something which plays a big factor in champion power. If a champion's resource can be ignored (more or less) then they have a massive advantage over someone who does have to play around their resource.

Shen has to play around his energy but LeeSin really doesn't if you can right click

Skarner has to worry about his mana costs but Udyr doesn't really even notice that he has one

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20152 votes

Awe, OP got his booty kicked by J4 the last two games and now wants to cry on forums about it xD.

XtremeyJan 12, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Awe, OP got his booty kicked by J4 the last two games and now wants to cry on forums about it xD.

90% of all QQ threads

Joe DreddJan 12, 20151 votes

Guess I'm the 10%

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20153 votes

No, you are the 90% since your match history shows that you had lost 2 games in a row to J4 before posting this thread.

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20152 votes

Most, yeah. But at least a lot of them provide reasoning for it. I'm not sure how OP thinks J4 ult is more disruptive than Lee's lol.

Not too mention, I'm not sure where he is getting that people are saying J4 is weak and barely keeping up lol. He is just making silly stuff up.

Joe DreddJan 12, 20151 votes

Except I didn't. In fact, the last two games I had a J4 on my team and lost. Does that change the fact that J4 is OP? No. I don't make rant threads because of me losing games.

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20153 votes

And here we see a clear lie from OP. Basically, with your terrible terrible skill level and being demoted, it looks as if you paid for your account (but we won't get into that).

Anyway, before your last game just played, you had lost 2 games against a J4, just as I had said. You also must be really bad if you can only win 40% of your games, and have a terrible KDA with an OP champ.

warpenguin555Jan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And here we see a clear lie from OP. Basically, with your terrible terrible skill level and being demoted, it looks as if you paid for your account (but we won't get into that).

Anyway, before your last game just played, you had lost 2 games against a J4, just as I had said. You also must be really bad if you can only win 40% of your games, and have a terrible KDA with an OP champ.

so why are we attacking the OP now?

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 12, 20153 votes

Who is attacking? I simply called him out on his lie.

Joe DreddJan 13, 20151 votes

Don't worry bby I got back to plat just for you.

Cale017Jan 12, 20152 votes

Lee Sin has seven available abilities. Jarvan has IV.

Lee Sin only needs one spell to use as a gap closer. Jarvan has to use two for his basic gap closer or else use his ult. Neither of Jarvan's act as executes however, and neither are on extremely short cooldowns. This isn't accounting for the second spell he can use to gapclose or juke with his shield.

They both have a shield. Difference is, Lee Sin's also gives him bonus lifesteal and spellvamp while allowing him to wardhop. J4's shield might be a bit stronger, and have a slow attached, but it also can't be applied to allies.

J4's E gives him a little burst of damage and some extra attack speed for himself an allies. It's also pretty much necessary to set up for his main utility. Lee Sin's E is practically a magic damage nuke if he's building flat AD, and is a much more powerful slow than Jarvan's shield provides.

The ults don't really compare. Most champions have a way of escaping Jarvan's, and those that don't probably have flash. And it's probably going to be available anytime you want to ult someone.

Lee Sin's kit isn't as heavily loaded as Jarvan's, but Jarvan's lends itself to building full tank while still retaining a lot of use in the mid to late game, which is where Lee Sin falls off. The reason Jarvan has a higher winrate is because he can better lock someone down, if only for a few extra moments, and can function as a tank much more efficiently in the late game than Lee Sin, who loses purpose once he can no longer single out targets as his kit isn't too hot when it comes to diving into full teams unless he's significantly fed, and then he's not playing as a tank he's just blowing people up from pure damage.

J4 = team tactics

Lee Sin = solo queue KDA

TheI3igDaddyJan 12, 20152 votes

J4 has mana, no sustain.

Lee has energy, which is TOTALLY harder to manage then mana*, and he has built in sustain in his kit.

*I need a paper towel because I'm dripping with sarcasm.

warpenguin555Jan 12, 20151 votes

Neither one is, Lee Sin has a trash late game, and J4 is just annoying

i will agree his ults damage is kinda overkill though

junglerboy16Jan 12, 20152 votes

JarvanIV "Are you calling me fat?" —Riot Pwyff, the best Patch note writer ever.

warpenguin555Jan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Are you calling me fat?" —Riot Pwyff, the best Patch note writer ever.

lol

ValyrianBladeJan 12, 20151 votes

Win rates mean nothing really.

It's not that only J4 mains play J4 or that Lee Sin non-mains play Lee Sin - the stats there are probably similar. It has more to do with how hard the champions are to play. Lee Sin is probably a top-tier champion in the difficult-to-play department, meaning that only really highly skilled players who have also logged hundreds of games with him will actually use him effectively. In contrast, J4 is a fairly easy champion to play, and medium-skill players who've played a few dozen games with him are probably capable of using him effectively.

So you just have a lot larger percent of bad Lee Sins than you do bad J4s.

No metric is going to accurately tell you who is OP and who isn't. We shouldn't balance the game around Challenger or World Championships level of play. We also can't balance around Silver and expect challengers to have grossly broken champions rule everything because less skilled players can't abuse their mechanics.

Honestly I don't think either J4 or Lee Sin are OP right now, I think both are in good spots. Lee Sin really WAS OP before he got the AS slow on his E removed though (in my opinion) and he's just a much harder champion to use effectively (so if I ban him it's not only because I find him annoying to play against but also because I'm afraid of my team picking him).

GorszJan 12, 20151 votes

pick rate 19.27% win rate 53.42%

Those stats are insane. There is no way you can possibly argue that theres so many j4 mains that are skilled with the champion.

Now maybe if j4 had like less than 5% pick rate then maybe you would have a point.

Long Dong WukongJan 12, 20152 votes

Jarvan isn't hard to play and he's a good champion.

Easy + Good = higher winrate

You either just E Q W R or walk at them until they dash and E Q W and then they flash and you R

It's like playing Ken in Street Fighter IV. Flowcharts.

ValyrianBladeJan 12, 20151 votes

There's no denying that J4 is STRONG at the moment, but I don't consider strong to mean OP. As the other post here (and my post above) states, he is an easier to play champion, and the strong and easy combination is going to result in a high pick rate and a high win rate.

J4 is hugely benefiting from the current meta. Having a tanky jungler allows the top laner to choose a ranged champion or a damage champion as the team already has a tank, and clearly a tanky top laner is going to lose lane more often than not to a ranged champion. J4 also works very well with a lot of team comps, his ability to build either full damage or very tanky, his CC and gap-closer meshes very will with almost all meta champions, etc...

I'd say J4 was OP if you could visibly identify something broken with his kit that gives him a gigantic advantage over other champions. Like WWs synergy with devourer before the changes last patch. Or Zilean's global xp buff that made him a near 100% pick/ban in competitive play.

A champion simply having good numbers and a synergistic kit with the meta means they are strong. Maybe he'll see a small nerf in the future, but I'd say there are at least a dozen champions that need to be nerfed before him (e.g. Zed has something like a 48% win rate but is currently one of the champions in most desperate need of a nerf).

GorszJan 12, 20151 votes

lol keep using the "hes good in this meta" excuse.

There has never been a point in this entire game where j4 wasnt "good in the meta".

ValyrianBladeJan 12, 20151 votes

Really? Was J4 good in the season 4 jungle meta? The season 3 jungle meta? Or is there a chance he was good as a top laner some of the time and as a jungler at other times?

Regardless, being good in every meta to hit league so far doesn't equate to OP. It means he's strong and has a kit that is good for league.

We probably just have different ideas regarding how to define OP. As in my previous post, point out any part of his kit that is OP and explain why, then you may have an argument.

As far as I see it, J4 has a standard tank's kit with multiple forms of cc and a defensive buff, alongside a gap closer. His knock up is easy to dodge since he needs you between him and his standard, any movement (dash/leap/flash/what-have-you) can escape his ultimate, his slow is in melee range and thus he's kite-able by anyone with a kiting mechanism (as long as they can dash back whenever j4 dashes forward). He's strong in league because his gap closer + flash + ultimate leap can combine to close a large distance and lock down many fleeing enemies rather than just one (many of which blow their escapes trying to create that gap, J4 is a lot easier to play against when you save an escape for his ultimate or at least keep your team separated enough).

GorszJan 12, 20151 votes

Once again, j4 has always been good in every single "meta" you can define in this game.

The ONLY time, and I repeat the ONLY time he wasnt played was when people were psychologically tricked by Riots slap-on-wrist nerfs.

J4 is OP because he invalidates all champions who do not have mobility, and his kit has no weakness, nor flaws. You can say hes good for league all you want, but he has a stupid high pick rate in-conjunction with a really high win rate.

ValyrianBladeJan 12, 20151 votes

The point I was making was that in season 4, at least for a while, the 'meta' junglers were: Lee Sin, kha'zix, elise, Evelynn, and rengar. J4 might have been a good pick still, but I find it hard to argue someone is OP when 5 champions in their role were strongly preferred over them.

With respect to a kit having no weakness or flaws, did I not just point out that he's kite-able? Anyone who saves their escape for after he uses his ultimate makes fairly easy work of him. I've dominated J4 as caitlyn on many occasions. When I first played against him he killed me every time as I tried to use my net to get out of his range, but as soon as I saved my net to escape his ultimate I wrecked him repeatedly.

Secondly, all champs can take flash (and most do). If against J4 there is a summoner there to explicitly address that problem, so I find it hard to say anyone is invalidated. Instead, I'd argue that champs with movement abilities take away from J4s strengths and are probably why he's able to be as strong as he is.

GorszJan 13, 20151 votes

Flash has a 5 minute cooldown. J4s ult has 1-1.5 minute cooldown.

J4 can get free kills on non mobility champions 3-4 times for every flash cooldown. "Anyone who saves their escape" half the champions in this game does not have an escape other than flash.

ValyrianBladeJan 13, 20151 votes

The only ones that really need the escape are the mid laners and adcs (and assassin junglers); any tank/fighter can stand and fight in the arena unless J4's team already has an advantage in that fight (which we can't really compare in that case as any champion's ultimate should help win a fight when their team already has the advantage).

How many adcs/apcs/assassins have no escape? How many of those ever see play (even when the enemy top and jungler have already been picked and are not J4, the immobile apcs are never picked because of the state of mid Lane right now, and for adcs the only one I can think of is jinx, who can set her chompers in the arena for an easy stun, sivir and MF are gaining popularity though I suppose...).

GorszJan 13, 20151 votes

The reason immobile mids are not being picked is because of champions like j4.