Wasn't it enough that for most years there always had to be one marksman on every team?
Wasn't that already worrysome enough that one class dicated how the game was played?
And now we have an average of TWO marksmen per team, sometimes even three.
Isn't that an obvious balance issue?
And why is there nothing done to fix it?!
Dominick Destine23 votesWhy do you have such a raging boner for Marksmen?
Is it wrong to say I have a raging boner only for some marksman...?
SaltyToplaneGoat13 votesYou forgot 
but yeah, you're right.
Only Play Darius1 votesI find it funny that you put MF last
Saianna2 votescause of fake ball-shaped boobs
SithesisLord5 votesI think the splash art that shows the most natural boobs is Blood Moon Elise's.
Saianna2 votesI dare say Jinx :P
SaltyToplaneGoat17 votesNatural boobs you say?
Big and 100% natural.
Saianna1 votesyou won :<
Troll for Trump1 votes
SaltyToplaneGoat1 votesSorry, I do not consider "cut up and stitched back together under the use of necromancy and technology" natural <_<
Bottom Laner2 votes
The Yetii Rider1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cLNi5JTA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-21T06:50:43.856+0000)
Is it wrong to say I have a raging boner only for some marksman...?
Watch your mouth, kid, or you'll find yourself respawning at home.
Teridax688 votesThis year's perhaps special because the marksman class as a whole received massive changes that significantly improved the experience of playing them, giving them more options and improving their gameplay, whereas other classes are still in need of similar roster and itemization changes to address their own issues, but I think the core problem, beyond marksmen probably being too strong overall, is that marksmen are currently essential to the game by design.
Right now, mages, tanks, fighters and assassins all bring things to the table that are often somewhat interchangeable (too interchangeable in the case of fighters and tanks, to the point where it's difficult to say which champion's a bruiser and which one's a tank, or what a tank really is), whereas marksmen are the only ones able to reliably succeed at certain essential goals, namely objective control and teamfight DPS. Whereas most teams can feel comfortable replacing a mage with an assassin, or a tank with a fighter or vice versa, it's impossible to replace a bot lane marksman with anything else because no other class can cover their functions, or provide advantages that would trump the lack of a marksman.
Ideally, every class should have the same amount of freedom as marksmen now, with the ability to go in every lane and each make "essential" contributions that no other role would be able to cover (and, since there are six classes and five champions per team, every comp should be making at least one major tradeoff), but I think it's more a matter of every class needing to be on the same overall level of modernity and quality of enjoyment as marksmen, rather than a need to flat-out nerf marksmen themselves.
ProfDrDeath1 votesThe reason we have a marks(wo)man every game has less to do with them bringing to much, and more with them being able to give something up and be less affected than the other classes.
Marksman, or ranged auto-attack focused champions, are the class that is the most suited for being in a set-up were they have to share experience, but get all the farm. Why?
Because they are ranged and auto-attack focused. (Duh)
Range, in general, is an inherent form of safety - you cannot hurt what you cannot hit. Melees, on the other hand, voluntarily move into range for enemy retaliation, and thus need the extra protection from defensive base stat increases.
Auto-attack damage does scale a lot harder with items than it does with levels - for instance, most marksman get about 40-45 AD total from 17 levels. That's a BF Sword. Ability-focused champions, on the other hand, want those levels to get ranks in their abilities - not only for the extra base damages (compare how much AP you'd need for the same damage increases), but also for the reduced cooldowns (if an ability gets lowered CD/rank). In addition, for mana-based champions, their resource regenerations also heavily scales with levels.
If you want to have another type of champion go botlane, you essentially need someone who either gets full XP (reworked Morde, and we all saw how that turned out) or a very specific kind of mage (low base damage increases, no lowered CD/rank, scaling in some XP-independent way like Cass' passive...).
Teridax681 votesI agree with this, and I think Riot is still having trouble finding a proper substitute for range on fighters without them feeling unfair (i.e. melee carries like Yasuo and Fiora negating stuff with a button press) or underwhelming, which is why it's impossible to properly replace a marksman with a fighter, even though both classes are meant to primarily contribute high DPS. Generally, marksmen have a lot of reliability to both their offensive and defensive capabilities, which makes it difficult to bring anything up to par with that without coming up with something really gross.
I also agree that marksmen are innately favored by duo lane experience sharing, and I feel it might perhaps be worth looking for a way to remove reduced experienced gains altogether, and instead look for alternatives to compensating for being outnumbered in lane, especially considering experience sharing is also harmful to the enjoyment of the support role. Perhaps a larger problem is that, even now, the main weakness of any marksman is assumed to be their early game weakness, but not only has that always been compensated for by the presence of a support, many marksmen now are strong enough to succeed in solo lanes and even become lane bullies, while still carrying in the late game. It's innately difficult to give counterplay to a marksman's damage, since basic attacks are unavoidable, but I feel the counterplay to marksmen too often revolves around focusing them before they get rolling, when mages tend to have similar counterplay while also usually having dodgeable spells. Ideally, there should be more ways to significantly mitigate marksman damage through reactive play, beyond just stacking armor and getting Thornmail/Warden's Mail.
Only Play Darius7 votesDamage creep. It started with sated Devourer introduced to let DPS junglers hit like a train late game and even the first Ashe rework giving her Jinx-levels of damage without touching her utility (still a great rework). Then came juggernauts giving them new items that allow them to nuke people while building tanky. Then the ADC rework adding new items and giving free power to some champions like Corki and his bombing run which is why they have the damage to kill people in solo lanes. And it's probably going to happen again with the mage update.
Not saying it's necessarily bad, especially in the juggernauts case where bruisers had literally no build paths before that, but I think damage needs to be looked at and defense might need buffs.
69469238DEL14 votesGraves JG, Quinn Top, Corki Mid, Ezreal Bot
A Miss Fortune3 votesI dislike how League is either the ADC meta or the anti-ADC meta. Either ADC is a role that's nearly as unpopular as the Support role is due to Marksmen traditionally being insanely squishy, immobile, and are irrelevant without a team, or it's a role like it currently is where teams of 4 ADCs can legitimately be played. (5 ADC team if you like Ashe support.).
I hoped that the Marksmen rework would allow ADCs to be more independent without being overbearingly strong so that the role's success could be based off the player's skill rather than which team could hug their ADC the most. Though the rework pretty much just buffed ADCs across the board and instead of seeing Vayne and Jinx every game we now see Corki, Lucian, and Ezreal every game.
Rivini3 votesThe reason is simple: right-click champions, particularly ranged ones, excel at providing consistent action.
What makes the LCS fun for the audience to watch?
Action.
What makes it boring to watch?
Cooldown-based gameplay, anyone who can't right-click for damage, or anyone who needs to passively farm for the majority of the match to be useful (i.e. Nasus).
Riot wants to show off as much action, flashiness and unique gameplay as possible, so that's why marks(wo)men, Zed, Lee, Thresh, and certain others will always remain in a competitively viable state. Don't be surprised when you see them no longer care about the mages in the mid-year mage update after they're done with it. Some of the evidence showing they already don't care for mages (and AP in general) is the fact they are doing very little with AP itemization. Not even introducing any new items whatsoever, despite the glaring problem with lack of AP item variety. You can see with all the recent AD item updates and new AD items that they blatantly want this game to be about rapidly right-clicking people to death, not casting spells every 5-20 seconds and doing nothing during the downtimes.
Zedex1 votesYes but Nasus is constantly in and out of pro play. He's like a staple top laner and he's so fucking boring to watch, why do players always request to watch someone farm bot for 45 minutes? I'm glad they don't play him much anymore, hes boring to play as and against, and certainly isn't fun to watch.
I'd rather see Graves all day then Nasus farming for years to just one shot towers and everything else.(While requiring zero positioning, skill, or decision making on his part.)
Mister Support2 votesThe only way that ADCs would not be a required thing is if Riot made it either more difficult for range champions to take towers or easier for AP/melees to take towers. And we all know how that would end up.
splitpush all day.
Arsenic Sulfur1 votesTrynd does that already.
Arsenic Sulfur2 votesIf they did, assassins wouldn't exist.
Dataless2 votesI'm getting really sick of midlane 
.
I don't mind 
/ 
as much because they were always my comfort pick ADC's, and 
is finally allowing Luc to be the CDR based AD caster I always knew he wanted to be. (I can totally respect other people being sick of them though, different strokes and all that)
I don't even mind jungle 
even if it feels cheesy sometimes.
But I am getting SO damn sick of seeing midlane Corki.
japan hate acc2 votesYou can literally go,
Top
Mid
Jungle
Bot
Support
And that would be a fairly balanced team. All marksmen.
Best Valor NA1 votes Jungle *
Mid
is more like it.
japan hate acc1 votes[{quoted}](name=Best Valor NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cLNi5JTA,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2016-03-22T04:09:58.592+0000)
is more like it.
Yeah, I was going to put Corki mid, but to be honest, I haven't seen many Graves junglers.
Best Valor NA1 votesI tend to find either one in most of my games, and if not in one of my games, they ALWAYS pop up in pro play.
TeCoolMage1 votesWhen AP items stop being so expensive... Cassiopeia shall have the sustained damage to rule bot lane forever!
Palmeiras SerieB1 votesBecause tons of damage
Rockm Sockm1 votesI honestly don't think the problem is the traditional adc at bot but the other marksman you see taking advantage of the solo lanes and jungle.
What can we do about Graves,Quinn and corki?
MyTeamIsAwsome1 votesThis is the reason i play rammus support. Trying to make adc slowly dissapear if this game.
Snowplosion1 votesThere has been a marksmen every meta but has there ever been a true marksmen meta? Let the ADC mains please have a turn where they can do pretty much anything successfully. We can go back to a different meta and we can still nerf OP marksmen, but please do NOT ask for a complete meta over hull.
Abyssphere4 votesThere has been a marksmen every meta but has there ever been a true marksmen meta. Let the ADC mains please have a turn where they can do pretty much anything successfully. We can go back to a different meta and we can still nerf OP marksmen, but please do NOT ask for a complete meta over hull.
When have you ever seen mages or tanks taking over the bot lane carry role? ADCs are the first ever class to be able to play basically any role on the rift - if nobody else has been allowed to do it then ADCs shouldn't either.
The role is retarded and the meta has to go. Or is everyone that doesn't enjoy right-click bots just supposed to accept ADCs doing everyone else's jobs better than them?
Snowplosion1 votesAbyssphere2 votes
- Morde
- A bad ADC is a right-click bot. A good one is an actually care. I can see which one you are :D.
Morde was one person for about two patches. Arguing that one champion being good in the role for all of five minutes means it wasn't an ADC meta is ridiculous. And when Morde was #1, neither mages nor tanks nor juggernauts were also overwhelming in three other roles.
You're a right-click bot no matter how good or bad you are. When 95% of your damage is targeted and your (supposed) main job is destroying turrets, that's kind of inevitable.
Snowplosion1 votesNot all ADC are AA reliant. Examples are: and 
and to a degree and
Abyssphere1 votesNot all ADC are AA reliant. Examples are:
I mean at the end of the day it really doesn't matter if the terminology I used is correct or not (but hey congrats to ADCs who occasionally use abilities?). The point still stands that mage, assassin and bruiser players are basically being told that they don't have a job anymore because ADCs will do all of them better while also doing the ADC job. That's not acceptable.
Shrîke1 votesWell op marksmen have been getting nerfed with every patch, so you can relax. Although graves still needs to be gutted :^)
La Barbotte1 votesits the marskmen rework, they did the same with juggernaut, the only thing restraining them was being kited, which is why they didnt reach mid or bot lane (exept the metal pimp himself, he was supposed to), just wait for the mage update, ap meta and mages everywhere