Changing the name of the role won't make it more appealing

Big Lincoln·Apr 9, 2017·83 votes·3,617 views

making it so that the classic supports don't share half or most of their kits with each other would make support more enjoyable

if actually functioned as a support and not a discount burst mage with the people who play(ed) her would probably come back to her

if classic supports weren't actively encouraged to avoid interacting with the enemy unless they can take pot shots with , then mage supports would never have become the necessity they are now.

if tank supports actually had good base stats like they used to they might actually be useful in the first half of the game. excluding blitz if he can land hooks.

if supports didn't have 3 items locked into their build every game , they'd probably get picked more. this one is especially grinding to me, because we love to bitch about how stale mage itemization is, how constant ADC builds are, but we can never bring these items up lest we be told off by people who don't play support but insist that there's nothing wrong with this.

Changing the name of it is just semantics, and people are still going to call it 'support' just like 'marksmen' are still called ADCs despite Riot wanting otherwise. stop beating around the bush; give us a support rework.

97 Comments

fuffychanApr 9, 20178 votes

I agree get rid of all the silly names

like "wardens" etc just call them all tanks

Big LincolnApr 9, 20177 votes

imo the naming conventions only limit design of individual champs

LeonerdoApr 9, 201711 votes

If anything the categorization makes it easier to create unique champions, because the designers can easily see what is "basic Warden stuff" and what deviates from that and makes a novel character.

Big LincolnApr 9, 20172 votes

have yet to see it.

5000000000000000Apr 9, 20172 votes

Galio? Compare him to other wardens.

Big LincolnApr 9, 20174 votes

Galio doesn't have many mechanics that separate him from other wardens. same standard CC, shield, dash

the anti-mage shit that's supposed to separate him is just stats between health/MR scaling

5000000000000000Apr 9, 20172 votes

He can give damage resistance to an ally (which synergizes better with high resistance ally than low resistance ally). He has one of the largest AoE cc in the game, aside from standard warden stuff of keeping enemies off your carry.

Compare this to Braum, who also has delayed CC, but applied through autoattacks. Ultimate leaves a persistent zone of effect. And of course he has the wall.

Sure the CC types are the same, but how they're put together makes a pretty big difference.

Big LincolnApr 9, 20173 votes

Maokai can give DR to all allies, but I did hear that he's losing his current ult, so maybe not in 2-3 patches.

braum is unique, but he was from before they split up subgroups. look at a more recent champion Camille and her position relative to divers. nothing short of her ult separates her; for most other purposes she's just an updated version of Irelia.

5000000000000000Apr 9, 20175 votes

What do you mean Camille isn't unique? Her gapcloser is one of a kind in the game. So is her passive, and basically every ability.

Compare to other divers like Warwick Irelia Hecarim and we know that Camille is definitely unique compared to other divers while still having the same diver strengths.

Chembaron YamadaApr 9, 20175 votes

In my opinion, the introduction of subclasses was great. You say it limits design, but you forget that a champion doesn't have to fit in just one of these playstyles.

The limitations by this system are natural and self-explanational. You will have a hard time combining assassin and juggernaut in a champion as long as it isn't a form changer like gnar. These contradict each other. But you are able to create a champ who is (for example) a combination of juggernaut and warden.

And the system shows niches we don't have and they can try to fill them. We got a lot of roaming champs, but is there a marksman designed for roaming? There was a point that wasn't the case, until Quinns rework.

That a champion shouldn't have great tankiness, damage and mobility available all the time is common sense. That we label a champ with damage and tankiness but without mobility as juggernaut and a champ without tankiness but with damage and mobility as assassin isn't limiting in itself.

JarvansWARApr 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That a champion shouldn't have great tankiness, damage and mobility available all the time is common sense.

Camille LeeSin Graves Did somebody call the generalist squad?

Chembaron YamadaApr 9, 20175 votes

[...] great tankiness, damage and mobility available all the time [...]

Camille is a diver, these class has some upsides on all these aspects. But do they excel at all of them the whole time? They usually don't. Camille for example is actually not that tanky kitwise. She has a passive which gives her tankiness against one damage type and that for a time window of power.

After she lost the shield, she is nowhere near the tankiness of a juggernaut.

Graves just recently got his MR removed for exact that reason. He is not as tanky as a pure tank, but because his E is active as long as he is fighting, he lacked opportunities (so: windows of weakness) for the opponent to punish. He doesn't get MR anymore from his E, which means that he is alot weaker against AP damage now and hopefully fulfil that paradigm.

Lee Sin is a generalist, I agree and think he actually should get reworked.

You can give champions these windows of power, as long as they are just that, windows.

chipndip1Apr 9, 201733 votes

The point is to give a distinction between more defensive tanks like Galio and Poppy (after early game anyway) and purely offensive ones like Malphite and Sejuani. It's also to finally have a solid class name for champs like Yasuo and Yi. The names for sub-classes is fine, given how "support" is a role and not a sub-class.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20174 votes

On the other hand, these specifications are important for some champs to be balanced around, such as offensive Tanks and defensive Tanks.

BLACK REALM GODApr 9, 20176 votes

you know how rock paper scissors works? of course you do, but some might not so let me explain

there are 3 choices and each choice is weak against the choice before it and strong against the choice after it.

like this - rock --> scissors --> paper --> rock

rock paper scissors is actually not balanced

in order to achieve balance there has to be equal forces on both sides otherwise you're not achieving balance. balance would be playing rock paper scissors with just rock to choose

rock=rock

in video games we like to talk about balance a lot, but what everyone actually means is strategic advantage. especially when playing a game that is about taking advantage of your opponents weaknesses.

strategic advantage is something a bit more complex than balance and requires a great number of variables to be enjoyable.

take a game like pokemon for example. if we use their type system we get a couple of different effect cycles that provide simple advantages and then there are effect constants that provide complex advantages.

the basic element type cycle :

fire --> grass --> water --> fire

then there are advanced elements :

ice and electric

these elements do not follow any particular rules, but seems to be designed with the idea that it is the inverse of a basic element such as ice - fire and electric - water.

ground, rock, and steel

these elements were likely designed as an afterthought for balance with steel not showing up until generation 2.

and variables like :

flying or not flying

ghost or not ghost

dark or not dark

dragon or not dragon

fairy or not fairy

fighting or not fighting

psychic or not psychic

poison or not poison

bug or not bug

normal or not normal

these variables can stack onto other combinations and have a simple function of negating out as much of the basic elemental damage advantages or in some cases other state variables.

in a game like league of legends though the stats are the elements that make up the strategic balance

currently those stats are all over the place.

each champion is effectively its own variable and with stats being everywhere the game is neither balanced nor does it provide any strategic advantage.

no matter how strategic advantage is implemented in a game like league there needs to be a balance between offense and defense.

currently the scales are shifted towards offense.

changing the name of some champions to warden vs juggernaut doesnt help with balance anymore than calling fire pokemon infernal pokemon. it focuses their kit on a single element of gameplay, but it doesnt fix the offset of defense vs offense nor does it correct strategic advantages that are overbearing.

if we look at all of the strategic elements of league we get something that looks like this

ranged vs melee

offense vs defense

magic vs physical vs true

ability vs basic attacks

cooldown timers vs attack speed

movement vs movement effects

health vs health regeneration

resources vs resource regeneration

critical multiplier vs no critical multiplier

every item, spell, mastery, rune, and ability in the game is either offensive or defensive and grants one of those variables. it can be a multiplier or an additive constant, but unless the total of the champions kit plus any combination in the game is equal to 0 in terms of value when compared to all other champions then that champion is unbalanced.

unbalanced champions will be exploited for their positive values and forgotten for their negative values.

this is a matter of mathematical inconsistency and the best way to improve the chances of reaching a balanced point is through simplifying variables before trying to combine them.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/05/didnt-read.gif

TLDR

in other words creating more variables by creating more diversity in roles will cause even more imbalance and a feeling of lacking strategic advantage due to that imbalance.

THESHOTOF1CEApr 9, 20171 votes

This turned into Pokemon fast

BLACK REALM GODApr 9, 20173 votes

i used pokemon because it's a game that most players playing league either know about or have played and it uses elements which are easy to understand in regards to how one beats the other. had i used another element based game or system it might not have been a easy to relate to or understand.

for example monster hunter, digimon, and final fantasy have similar systems.

KaeblenApr 9, 20178 votes

I remember when they first changed janna so that her sheilds would give AD that scales up with her ability power, and her bonus MS would scale up with AP too... Janna then they "trimmed" all her scalings, and none of the new support items give AP... can't use those 'benefits' she was supposed to have. . . . Janna has a great gameplay identity (not so sure about lore), and I'm sure other caster supports are/were equally satisfying, but I feel like support just gets shafted over and over again.

ElikainApr 9, 20171 votes

Not sure about your Janna argument at all. item 3092 item 3174 item 3041 item 3504 are all AP items that are support oriented, that Janna can afford. Censer even gives her shield a passive boost, on top of her Windpeaker's she's already using, that also scales with her own AP she gets from these items. Let's not forget item 2139 .

Mejai's is supposed to be in here because if Janna herself is not dying but is getting assists, she can easily stack up AP without even investing gold in it. And this in turn, makes her Enchantress nature even more powerful.

AhristocatsApr 9, 20174 votes

oh my fucking god...

{quoted}

Not sure about your Janna argument at all.

but i am let me show you

{quoted}

are all AP items that are support oriented, that Janna can afford. Censer even gives her shield a passive boost, on top of her Windpeaker's she's already using, that also scales with her own AP she gets from these items. Let's not forget

Spellthief edge is never bought unless maybe in low elo=? trying to poke with janna is the definition of how to lose lane

she has 475 range combined with a very messy auto animation unlike every single other enchenters that all build spellthief edge She doesn't do damage at all, building athene is one of the worst idea you can build medjai this is true, but it doesn't give ap in all games. It gives ap at the condition of your team winning to give you stacks you can build ac, this is very true and THE ONLY ITEM that i consider a good argument. But utility scaling was put in this game with the idea of enchenters having more than 300 ap which is just straight out stupid

{quoted}

.

i don't think i need to comment on an item that is bought after 50 min

{quoted}

Mejai's is supposed to be in here because if Janna herself is not dying but is getting assists, she can easily stack up AP without even investing gold in it. And this in turn, makes her Enchantress nature even more powerful.

Supposed, it has 75% win rate and 0.80% pick rate due to how situational it is. Only good if the odds are good and if you already have redemption and locket

At the end of the day utility scaling is a mistake, and riot balanced janna around it after buffing her 2 or 3 times=? after the changes, then a set of 3 or 4 nerfs

i wouldn't mind having old janna that didn't need any items

-gH

Heckin SupportApr 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Mejai's is supposed to be in here because if Janna herself is not dying but is getting assists, she can easily stack up AP without even investing gold in it. And this in turn, makes her Enchantress nature even more powerful.

Mejai's is a bad buy on Janna. Even if you're ahead, it's so much better to buy redemption, locket, censor, boots, sightstone, almost anything else. Janna isn't meant to be a mage support like Lulu or Sona and build items like Mejai's or Athenes, items like locket, redemption, censor, mikeals, etc are so much better.

ElikainApr 10, 20171 votes

Mejai's is an item that is supposed to help champions who want AP but don't have the gold to invest in actual AP items. Buying AP on her isn't terrible. The thing is, you'd only use that AP for more shields/AD or your ult for the heal. Her Q or W aren't that much important, considering that her W can get a bit more slow on the enemy, a bit more MS for you and her Q is mainly used as a disruption tool, not for waveclear or damage. Janna isn't a mage but an Enchanter who scales off AP. There really isn't an AP build for Janna, just these two items that synergize with her kit naturally.

You'd probably go with more AP if the enemy has more single target damage while you'd go for more utility oriented builds if there's more AoE in the enemy team. Even with my proposed Mejai's + Ardent, you wouldn't rush either. You'd first buy a Dark Seal to see if you can keep your stacks at 10 and then you'd normally go for Sightstone and whatever your team needs first. Ardent Censer is probably 4th+ item, to give a bit more stats to champions who already have decent items.

This means it's not delaying your core items at all nor is it replacing them. Redemption and Locket still have room to be built even if Mejai's and Censer are in your inventory.

chipndip1Apr 9, 20177 votes

Why is everyone here blaming champ sub-classes for support issues? In case we've forgotten, Wardens and Enchanters are the usual targets for supporting. That's two different sub-classes from either "tanks" or "control mages". Support isn't a class, it's a role. Sub-classes have nothing to do with it.
No one wants supports to deal damage at all. Maybe that's one benefit of changing the name...so that people don't think you're some pom-pom wearing cheerleader more than you're someone that's there to synergize with a gold hungry team mate while using as little gold as possible. The community mindset itself limits the role just as much as you accuse Riot of doing.

Big LincolnApr 9, 20174 votes

No one wants supports to deal damage at all.

but this isn't true at all

Bard JUST got his damage output buffed early and more than doubled mid-late. Nobody is angry about it yet.

chipndip1Apr 9, 20172 votes

Yes it is. Have you SEEN the amount of threads saying "Supports should deal next to no damage" or "Supports should scale with a stat that contributes ZERO to damage dealing" or "Get fucking Zyra out of bot lane"?

It is true. I would know with the amount of time I spend floating around the Gameplay subsection. If Bard's buffs actually helped his early game, people would cry foul again, but he has to go finding chimes, so the buff basically did jack shit.

Mira Arya EntheApr 9, 20175 votes

Good post is good. As a support secondary I think this would make it much more enjoyable. Nice to see a productive support post instead of just "Wirship me cuz I am an innocent lamb for your slaughter"

ForeverLaxxApr 9, 20175 votes

I think all the umbrella "class names" are fundamentally bad for the health for the game, just when I thought Riot wasn't capable of doing things worse. Now that they've assigned functions to these classes, it limits design space and balancing to maintain the assigned function -- often to the detriment of the character involved. It doesn't help matters that they continue to insist on pumping out new champions, making the pool so large that it's impossible to avoid making functional copies of other existing champions (or at best, half-copies). This is only made worse from the class identifications, as it encourages every character under that class to have the same sort of tools.

I want champions that were designed for a single function again. Amumu was designed to bandage into a fight, push R, and provide MR reduction/passive damage so his team could finish the fight. Now we get champions with two modes of mobility, a couple defensive steroids, some kind of heavy nuke, and a CC effect because "that's what a Diver needs to function!"

It's too late to turn back now, unfortunately.

Big LincolnApr 9, 20172 votes

Agree completely. The sub-class idea became a bad one when Riot began to use it as "this group can have X but not Y" and it is IMO why the fighter group/Diver subclass is so incredibly stale; they are completely interchangeable.

The sub-group idea would have worked much better just as a general label for one common trait, not several limitations.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20178 votes

I want champions that were designed for a single function again.

That makes them binary though. They usually become too good at their intended function or not good enough at it to be picked. Options are good, but overly versatile is bad.

ForeverLaxxApr 9, 20172 votes

Not when those designs can be countered by other picks, items, and said counters can be dealt with by the original champion with their own counter items or teammates.

You know, basically how Dota has functioned for years without imploding in a counter-counter-counter-war.

It's too bad Riot's initial design philosophy of "everyone needs to feel useful, no one can be "countered" by picks/items, and everyone should be able to carry" led to the outcome we've been suffering with since about Season 3 or 4.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20175 votes

I personally beg to differ, as I despise explicit hard counters. I just want to play my champ without being made useless just because someone picked something.

ForeverLaxxApr 9, 20175 votes

That's the deal, though. Nothing is truly a "hard counter" in the strictest sense, even in Dota. Certain picks are considered counters because of how the hero plays in relation to another, or how one skill directly interferes with a key ability of the one you want to counter. Items can function this way as well, such as Eul's suspending Abaddon during his ult so you avoid healing him with errant damage. Even Slardar and BH's stealth-revealing abilities don't completely ruin heroes that are reliant on the mechanic, as there's ways to remove the debuff in addition to just paying attention to when they're around/the abilities are on cooldown/having allies. Needing to have allies shouldn't be considered a detriment, but in League it has become that way -- everyone wants to be able to handle all situations by themselves, and if they can't, then they consider the situation to be unfair and requires Riot's direct intervention.

The real problem is that Riot decided to side with people like yourself in a game that's trying to be "competitive." League's competitive scene has just been a rotating door of whatever single champion or combination has produced the most oppressive and non-interactive effect, usually by virtue of things being overtuned in a fool's desire to make everyone feel like they're doing something.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20175 votes

everyone wants to be able to handle all situations by themselves, and if they can't, then they consider the situation to be unfair and requires Riot's direct intervention.

You shouldn't require help to beat something. There shouldn't be a point where I have to say at any stage of the game "can't fight him because he's X". There shouldn't be a game where I lose lane, solely because I got counterpicked. Inversely, I shouldn't be able to pick a champ and expect to win solely because I picked a counter to them.

I'm unfamiliar with Dota's heroes, but I believe there's a global silence for an ult? That would make it so if I played my main, I couldn't do anything proactive as long as his ult was up. I hear a common match up of a hawk mage against a guy who puts totems down that punish people for casting spells, where the mage is a spell spammer. I'd fucking kill myself in that match up.

Blood Hunter against mobile champions? While it would be hilarious to watch Yasuos kill themselves from Rupture (Hemorrhage?), it would be such a hard counter to mobile champions that I couldn't play the champion I love without making sure he's banned. Which in turn makes them likelier to be picked by the enemy team as a denial pick.

But Dota has ways around these like BKB which iirc, gives you complete spell immunity for the duration.

The real problem is that Riot decided to side with people like yourself in a game that's trying to be "competitive."

You can fuck right off with that "Us versus Them" mentality. Riot has been making problems as quickly as they're fixing them, but I do not believe in using Dota as a model for League. There's always something to be gained in inspiration from similar games, but there is a line to cross. Yes, hard counters would diversify pro play by bringing in champions with specific niches for countering other picks but that'd turn it truly into a game that only cared about the Esports aspect of the game.

ForeverLaxxApr 9, 20174 votes

Yeah, the "I want to do what I want and nothing should stop me except some perceived 'misplay' on my part" argument.

Oh, and just so you're aware, League/Riot already only cares about the eSport aspect. Any of their claims to the contrary is just to placate the playerbase. I've been playing since before Season 1 and got to watch it devolve into its current state.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20172 votes

Considering I only play League for one champ, yea, I want to be able to play my champ and find reasonable success.

I'm aware of the focus on Esports. I despise it, because I despise Esports in general. But the game isn't entirely revolving around Esports yet. Otherwise we'd have a much likelier scenario of your posts where there are 63% win rate champion in low elo but are balanced for pro play.

HaIlMonitorApr 9, 20172 votes

They already do balance off of esports and pro/"high elo". Rengar has been sitting at 48-51% according to champion.gg for the last 4 patches. But because he was doing good in lcs (And isn't fun to watch to some people) they nerfed him to where he is currently 169th of 174 champions on win rate at about 45%. And to be honest there is zero reason to gut a champ sitting at the 50% threshold for so many patches because 300 out of the millions of players use him.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20172 votes

Yet they also keep champions down despite being worthless in pro play, like Garen and old Kat because they'd just be pub stompers in low ELO if they were competitively viable.

HaIlMonitorApr 9, 20171 votes

Those champs are both boring to watch too. Think about zed, LB, Ez, Ahri, lee... They all have one thing in common. They are fun to watch because of all the "Sick lcs outplays" When it is really just champs with a high amount of utility and damage. They might not all be super strong at the same time but there is a reason they dont want pro play to turn into Garen top, Annie mid, Janna support, Varus ADC and some really boring jg. People dont want to watch it.

That being said I do get what you are saying though because even a slight buff to Yi or Garen and all the sudden bronze elo would turn into Raid Boss fights lol.

chipndip1Apr 9, 20171 votes

So what's with the legitimately untrue statements of "Riot only balances around LCS" if we all know these things?

HaIlMonitorApr 9, 20172 votes

Do you think Sion KogMaw Amumu MissFortune need nerfed? Probably not but in bronze they are all over 55% win rate. 58.53% scion which usually people would scream for nerfs. But they wont nerf him even though he is pub stomping bronze (70% of the player base last I heard)

THE RlVER KlNGApr 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Considering I only play League for one champ, yea, I want to be able to play my champ and find reasonable success.

Which has never been all that hard, eh?

Considering Riot has had a boner for Ahri for about 6 years now.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20171 votes

Yea, I can find success on her now, but if there were hard counters which this little thread between me and him is about and couldn't play her as much as I'd like, it'd be much harder.

You don't have to bring up whether shes currently strong or not in this discussion.

THE RlVER KlNGApr 9, 20172 votes

shrug

Just thought it should be said.

IncarcerationApr 9, 20172 votes

Funny how an Ahri main is crying about how shit it would be to have a hard counter. Well now you know how it feels when we are fighting as an immobile ap mage against ur retarded ass champ with no legitimate counters.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20172 votes

Ahri doesn't hard counter most lane match ups. There are a few she wins such as Karthus, TF, and Ziggs off the top of my head, but most of her lane match ups are skill match ups. Even then, Ziggs still scales very well and can farm up easily while TF can make very impactful roams as well as beating Ahri late game if he can gold card her.

IncarcerationApr 9, 20171 votes

She only has two bad matchups (varies from site to site). Every other matchup, her winrate is at least 50%. She has multiple matchups where she has a 55%+ winrate against those champions. Those, in my opinion, are called champions that get hard countered by that champion, which is contrary to your opinion.

NineTailedMysticApr 9, 20171 votes

The only matchups I see, using leagueofgraphs as na.op.gg doesn't have match ups and I've been hearing poor things about champion.gg recently, that Ahri absolutely dominates are Ryze (63% WR), Azir (57% WR), and LeBlanc (55% WR). And that's more of a matter of those champions being absolutely dumpstered rather than Ahri being that good against them.

Like I said, a majority of Ahri's matchups are skill based. There's a few she's disadvantaged at, and a few she's got an advantage.

macromiteApr 9, 20172 votes

vayne counters tanks like that. for the whole game. its literally to the point where if the enemy team has a vayne and your team has two tanks one of those two tanks needs to go full damage so you can deal with her reliably.

FrightningApr 9, 20171 votes

Yea, she's pretty ridiculous (and I have played her a lot this past year, so I know first hand). I don't know why riot doesn't see it...(same with Darius being way too good at laning against melee champs).

macromiteApr 10, 20171 votes

Riot just hates tanks. Darius gets to dunk melee tops because tanks are melee tops. vayne gets to ignore the "No hard counter" rule because it is against tanks.