Make Deaths Dance 30% bleed effect for melee only, 15% for ranged
There, I fixed it
There, I fixed it
No you didn't fix it at all
Wouldn't fix what a problem it can be on bruiser top laners like Riven. The bleed passive shouldn't be stackable with knights vow and PD (although PD is an issue on its own).
Wouldn't fix what a problem it can be on bruiser top laners like Riven. The bleed passive shouldn't be stackable with knights vow and PD (although PD is an issue on its own).
This, people think ranged champions are the only crazy abusers. Then everyone ignores the unkillable Rivens and Fioras. DD is a problem in of itself because offensive items with defensive qualities are always problematic.
This, people think ranged champions are the only crazy abusers. Then everyone ignores the unkillable Rivens and Fioras. DD is a problem in of itself because offensive items with defensive qualities are always problematic.
Riven and Fiora are literally the only two who are melee and "abusing" the item. The item was already pretty damn good on them, and they were already strong, with buffs, of course they would be strong. They're not "abusing" the item.
Nowadays everything is abusing. Adc built IE? Abuse. Corki? Abuses triforce all the time. Akali abuses gunblade.
Except Fiora NEVER bought it before the buff. Riven was the only melee in the game barring maybe Zed that actually bought the item before it was buffed. I saw more BT's on Fiora than Death Dances before the change because the item simply wasn't that good and Fiora didn't usually opt for a 2nd lifesteal item anyway (she didn't really need one since BC also made her much bulkier than the more popular Trinity Force nowadays).
DD wasn't really built on Riven and surely not on Zed - unless it's minute 50 and she wanted to replace an item of hers. It was never decent on Zed.
The problem with DD is that it's insanely pricy - and as everyone knows every completed item is a huge powerspike as it grants the effects. DD might be powerful but it delays your built A LOT and it grants as much damage to squieshies as Youmuus (ArPen is really powerful) while costing essentially 1k more. That's just bad for snowballing and actually still not worth it.
As it is strong right now and as Riven synergizes extremely well with it due to her shield it's the meta build - which means that Riven is now a lategamecarry - she spikes later than the likes of Irelia but scales better into the lategame. Zed shouldn't built it.
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Except Fiora NEVER bought it before the buff. Riven was the only melee in the game barring maybe Zed that actually bought the item before it was buffed. I saw more BT's on Fiora than Death Dances before the change because the item simply wasn't that good and Fiora didn't usually opt for a 2nd lifesteal item anyway (she didn't really need one since BC also made her much bulkier than the more popular Trinity Force nowadays).
Well, statistically speaking she still has the best success from going BT. Back then death's dance really didn't do more than BT. Now we see her going either way. Not to mention the new guardian angel made her VERY strong.
Counterpoint: Draven and Graves are the only ranged champions who put much value on Death's Dance. (Also, you can add Kha to the melee group, and MF to the ranged, if you want to get kinda fringe)
Maybe we should stop freaking out about how Death's Dance is so broken to realize that there are STILL, after massive buffs, only a small group of champions using the item, and only one (Two if you count Riven) actual abuse case(s). The vast majority of AD champions actually suffer some drawbacks from buying Death's Dance, and certainly from rushing the item.
Long story short, the item isn't OP, even now, but there are a couple (literally one or two) champs actually abusing the item because their kits happen to work really dam well with Death's Dance.
I mean,
Your kit working reallt well with an item DOESN'T make it an abuse case. Abuse means you're taking advantage of an unintended interaction. Abuse cases are more similar to zhonya's in swain's ult and ravenous hydra canceling animations. NOT things like using the stats of an item extremely well.
I suppose it depends on your use of the word. I see it as a situation where if Riot were to buff an item to the point that it was good for the general group(s) it was aimed at, it would be stupidly broken on abuse cases.
But fair enough, we won't call it abuse cases as much as it just working really well with their kits. My point stands that even in its current state, Death's Dance is not a widely used item by either melee or ranged. Basically we shouldn't be looking ot ner the item as a whole when its still only seeing use by a very small number of champions.
Agreed. I would like to rephrase what you said a little though.
it's too good on a few champions
Not
it's seeing use by a very small number of champions
Many AD champions do consider it and occasionally buy it. Only very select champions are broken with it.
Bloodthirster hasn't been a problem.
Riven is health with how DD is now, without it she would be suffering quite a bit, Fiora is really the only bruiser that's abusing it because of how broken her kit interacts with it
No,
with
is absolutely stupid.
Very constructive to your argument there.
It's been 3 weeks. If you don't already know why it's dumb, you can ask.
Except they're all about a fed champion that just has the item that they've never seen before and that turns into a "THEY HAVE THIS ITEM SO THE ITEM MUST BE THE OP THING" without thinking that champion's kits may be the problem.
No popular boards post about DD is ever analytical. They're always "OMG THIS IS SO BROKEN NERF PLZ." Even with the new boards moderation, a lot of posts about deaths dance just state that it's strong with certain champions but neglect to mention that its not very strong on other champions. Gold effecient? Sure. Effective on every AD champion? No.
Every time an item that gets buffed out of obscurity gets played on any champion that has caused problems before in the past, it gets complained about on the boards. When any item becomes a core item after a buff and is played on any ranged ADC, heavy damage dealer, or (a tanky item) on tanks, the item gets complained about then the champion gets nerfed.
Every. Single. Time.
Cinderhulk: Sejuani nerf because she caused problems with tank items Redemption: Ivern got nerfed because of his support item build while jungling Sunfire: Most tanks got AOE damage nerfed because of the synergy
Riven is health with how DD is now, without it she would be suffering quite a bit, Fiora is really the only bruiser that's abusing it because of how broken her kit interacts with it
Is that why Riven has one of the highest win rates in the game right now at Diamond+?
No, it's because tank items went to shit and AD items kept getting buff. You think AD buffs won't be beneficial on a champ who scales purely on AD? She's abusing item buffs heavily and only received QoL changes in the past few patches.
Tanks kept Riven in check, now with all the tank item nerfs, she gets to shine cause she can now shit on tanks. However, with the changes to thornmail and the new vest item, she might be looking at taking some huge hits now.
Seems so obvious, doesn't it? But wait, we still have the Twitches and Caits running all over the place and Draven can still rush BT.....
draven wouldn't be a problem as you see already in the lcs
How about we nerf the bleed to 20% (for everyone) and be done with it?
This.
Bleed to 20-25%, cost to 3700 (to directly compete with the Bloodthirster it shares its 80 AD with), done.
grevious wounds on thornmail are coming so no need to nerf lifesteal items not to mention only draven as adc is building it
Or just change the bleed to 20% if 15% wasn't good enough. I have no idea why they doubled the bleed effect.
just remove damage and/or % heal.
Except you know, Riot is never going to make an item have a different passive for ranged champions vs melee champions.
No , frozen mallet have such thing (but they should increase the difference )
But it's negligable. How would anyone notice a difference of 20 MS? They hardly do with BC.
first off. I notice the 20 ms from from BC cause it gets me out of situations I dont want to be in. As riven. secondly if 20 ms is so bad why do you ever by boots?
20 Move speed conditionally (such as black clever/difference between ranged and melee frozen mallet strikes) is worse than 20 move speed all the time. Boots are a better buy than BC, simply because BC is conditional and boots are consistantly 25 MS. Especially when you have an opportunity to upgrade that 25 constant move speed to 45.
The point is, the only difference between a melee frozen mallet strike and a ranged frozen mallet strike is 20 movespeed at 400 base MS. This doesn't even matter considering the amount of slow the item does anyway. Slow for 40% or 30%. The only difference is 20 MS.
Stop taking it out of context. We were discussing debuffs, not increases.
why are you using bc as an argument against debuffs??
I'm using BC as an argument against the nearly unnoticable difference 20 MS makes for one second.
All the champs that are using Death's dance are fine even without it such as draven, riven and fiora. They really don't need to be anymore oppressive. On the other hand illaoi can use it to become more viable so maybe delete death's dance and buff illaoi (if she needs it). Problem solved. Plz don't just nerf draven for a broken item which other champs also abuse.
Illaoi can function without it. It helps, but it isn't necessary.
I actually refuse to play Illaoi without Death's Dance since her healing without it is absolutely abysmal. Change the way her passive heals and I would consider it, but only getting healed 5% per tentacle regardless of how many champions you hit feels absolutely awful in teamfights when Darius gets upwards of 30%+ health per Q while you are AT MOST going to get 5% even if you hit 5 people with a Q somehow. Are you squishier early on? Yeah, but it at least feels like you have actual sustain with your abilities (and actually utilize your absurd ratios since ADCs ruined Black Cleaver for her ratios).
Now if people bothered to look at statistics, only two "Marksmen" even have DD as part of their build - Draven and (arguably)Urgot. Then on a few others you may see it rarely, and besides that you won't see it in any half-decent build.
Funny thing is I bet if Riot did this change (they really have no reason to, but let's just pretend that they did), there'd be plenty of people thinking that ranged ad is a lot more balanced, when in reality the only relevant difference would be Draven being slightly weaker.
One time I was fed as varus so I built BT ,DD and GA and was almost unkillable , and if I built phantom dancer too , that would be so cancerous
One time I was fed as varus so I built BT ,DD and GA and was almost unkillable , and if I built phantom dancer too , that would be so cancerous
Yes that's what you're supposed to do if you are ahead, having relevant damage while being tankier is extremely strong. But if this was 50 minutes into the game the other ADC would be massively outdamaging you.
That is what you are supposed to do in most games tbh. If you are ahead on someone like....Renekton for example. You probably don't need 2+ damage items to be relevant since you being 2+ levels on the rest of the map is MORE than enough for you to hard carry so being absolutely unkillable by building tankier is much more beneficial. On the flipside if you are LOSING you should go a more damage oriented build since it won't matter how much defense you build if you are 2+ levels down and do nothing when you are in the fight (and just die anyway since you are behind). You are better off building more damage to get the most out of your 5 seconds of life instead of building tanky and getting nothing done during your now 7 seconds of life in a teamfight.
that because as u said u were fed, i can build morello on a 10/0 vayne and i would still win this does not make morello op on vayne. this is the secret behind all those video on yt where u see garbage builds that looks fine as the user is fed af.
Or just revert it back to 15% for everyone, because the item never needed this buff. And don't act like ranger is the problem when melees abuse it arguably just as much
before buffs none built death dance.
I did on 
not core though and illaoi was barely played, most illaois went black cleaver sterak and tank unless crazy ahead.
Sure , it's that simple , HOW DIDN'T WE REALISE. /s
But that would trigger the Caitlyn/Twitch/Draven/"Insert an OP ADC here" mains.
Death's dance is just as broken on melees as it is on ranged.
I've seen
build it.
There, I fixed it
It's funny because you think Death Dance is a Ranged ADC problem, the people abusing it are Zed, Fiora, Talon, Riven and Pantheon right now. It makes them super tanky while giving them sustain and damage. The item needs a flat nerf across the board. The only ranged dps that abuses it is Draven who will easlily go BT instead if the item gets nerfed.