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I think mana is a serious problem right now

The Deckowner··6 votes·1,217 views

with mana pot removed, flask removed, and having corrution pot against long sword+3hp pot is defintely not a great idea.

how are we gonna be able to lane against manaless champions such as tryn renekton mundo zed yasuo katarina shen akali vladmier shyvana lee sin and manymore if we play a champion with mana? whether if they start boot&4pot, longsword&3pot, dorans shied/blade with two pot or cloth armor& 4 pot they still going to outsustain you. so you will be forced to recall before ur enemy because u ran out of mana, your enemy will outfarm u, get more exp and maybe do some dmg on your turret. in some extreme cases when u are back into lane your enemy might already sustain themselves up and ready to stay another round to farm(ie tryn and vlad with built in healing.)

i think this is quite a issue now because in my own experience my teammate or myself with a mana champion often has a hard time against manaless champions due to them being able to stay in lane so long you can never leave lane to roam even when u are ahead and u probably cant kill them unless they make really dumb decisions because they have good sustain and u cant afford the mana to harass them.

something need to be changed now, either some buff to mana pool/regen or nerf the sustain of the manaless champions abit. otherwise mana champions will soon fall out of favour.

58 Comments

Raka Flaka MD7 votes

Aside from the yas/zed midlanes, most my other lanes are all mana champs who do just fine. You just cant sit there and spam spells all lane phase then wonder why your always out of mana. Budgeting mana has always been a part of the class.

The Deckowner2 votes

[{quoted}](name=dark king azrael,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-23T19:11:18.892+0000)

Aside from the yas/zed midlanes, most my other lanes are all mana champs who do just fine. You just cant sit there and spam spells all lane phase then wonder why your always out of mana. Budgeting mana has always been a part of the class.

dont get me wrong, i never said spaming abilities in lane, i am talking about them being able to trade/harass much more efficiently and costlessly(i dont think dis is a word). with nealy equal amount of dmg and defensive power the one uses mana always ends up losing the trade because when u both chunk a pot ur enemy goes to full stat and u still have half ur mana pool empty and waiting for that 1.5mana regen/sec.

u can definitely budget ur mana during laning but there is noway u can just aa during trades. and in many situations u need to use abilities to get the cc such as ad champ uses aa reset skills for under turret cs and mages use their abilities because their aa in early game is too weak for underturret last hit.

Meep Man2 votes

costlessly

*without cost

That would be the correct term for that sentence.

The Deckowner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-24T04:51:42.756+0000)

*without cost

That would be the correct term for that sentence.

thnx for the correction ;)

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

Mana users, even when they don't spam spells wildly, are at a massive resource disadvantage exactly because energy and manaless users CAN spam wildly. Even if you attempt to retaliate during their cooldown windows, you will stillburn a resource that recovers MUCH slower than your opponent's does, and once their cooldowns are back up they don't need to also wait for mana recovery to jump you.

Let a lane phase go long enough and the mana user will always end up low and either recalling or dying. If they can't burst the manaless user down before their mana resource dies to attrition, it's gg for the lane. And manaless champions often have equal or HIGHER burst damage to mana users, so the mana user doesn't have the power advantage needed to kill while their resources are strong enough to allow free spell use.

Just my opinion, but I really don't think champions with infinite or swiftly-recovering resources like Manaless Rage Energy and Flow should HAVE burst damage. Their long-lasting resources should give them an Over Time advantage, not a Burst advantage.

Ralanr5 votes

You learn to budget your mana.

Edit: kinda hard for mana based champions to fall out of favor when the MAJORITY of champions are mana based.

The Deckowner2 votes

{quoted}

You learn to budget your mana.

its kind of unfair that ur opponent can spam their skills and u can only aa just because u chose to play a mana champion.

Inquizelus3 votes

{quoted}

You learn to budget your mana.

Edit: kinda hard for mana based champions to fall out of favor when the MAJORITY of champions are mana based.

Here we see a GDer with some common sense.

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-23T19:06:35.311+0000)

its kind of unfair that ur opponent can spam their skills and u can only aa just because u chose to play a mana champion.

Here we see a G&Ber with none to speak of.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

Here we see a GDer with some common sense.

Here we see a G&Ber with none to speak of.

i dont even know what gbear means i am mexican.

but surprising how u are actually on dis board all day.

Inquizelus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-24T05:49:12.366+0000)

i dont even know what gbear means i am mexican.

but surprising how u are actually on dis board all day.

I get on the forums off and on. Saw this on the front page and clicked on it to see what the G&Ber was complaining about. Found a fellow GDer's response to you. And who gives a fuck if you're Mexican? That's right. No one.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

I get on the forums off and on. Saw this on the front page and clicked on it to see what the G&Ber was complaining about. Found a fellow GDer's response to you. And who gives a fuck if you're Mexican? That's right. No one.

i just said that i dont know wtf gber means why are u so mad and toxic all in a sudden.

Inquizelus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-24T06:21:57.693+0000)

toxic

I found one of Riot's leg-humping sheep dogs.

Emphasis on "sheep"

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

I found one of Riot's leg-humping sheep dogs.

Emphasis on "sheep"

i dont speak english as first language so these means nothing to me lol

Ralanr2 votes

G&Ber is a slang term referring to someone who participates in the gameplay and balance forum (which is what this subforum used to be called).

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

G&Ber is a slang term referring to someone who participates in the gameplay and balance forum (which is what this subforum used to be called).

thnx for the explaination, appreciated it.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

You learn to budget your mana.

Edit: kinda hard for mana based champions to fall out of favor when the MAJORITY of champions are mana based.

i mean they probably wont fully fall out but i have seem many and many more manaless champions in my own games they are kinda taking over

YumScrumptious961 votes

Yeah, that's your problem, you need to learn to play against them. I play Ahri and I'm able to easily destroy Zeds so there definitely ways to use mana efficiently and get good trades.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's your problem, you need to learn to play against them. I play Ahri and I'm able to easily destroy Zeds so there definitely ways to use mana efficiently and get good trades.

u r talking about a specific match up, ahri is somewhat a counter to zed, not every champion is ranged+build zhonyas+build manaregen+face a melee champ

YumScrumptious961 votes

Literally all of the champions you listed with no mana are melee champions. Mages aren't. You say its hard to beat them, its not, I gave you an example I didn't say every Ahri is able to beat Zed. That's what you seem to think I said. You actually said not every champion is ranged yet you talk about mages who are in ranged champions who build items and usually the ones that you talked about. Zed can beaten, it doesn't matter counter matchups, skill its what almost always decides it. Before you reply actually think of what you are talking about before you say something similar to not all mages are ranged.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

Literally all of the champions you listed with no mana are melee champions. Mages aren't. You say its hard to beat them, its not, I gave you an example I didn't say every Ahri is able to beat Zed. That's what you seem to think I said. You actually said not every champion is ranged yet you talk about mages who are in ranged champions who build items and usually the ones that you talked about. Zed can beaten, it doesn't matter counter matchups, skill its what almost always decides it. Before you reply actually think of what you are talking about before you say something similar to not all mages are ranged.

when did i say not all mages are ranged?

YumScrumptious961 votes

The whole conversation was on mages and you said I had it easy playing a ranged mage.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

The whole conversation was on mages and you said I had it easy playing a ranged mage.

funny how i had been talking about ad champs and tanks all day and u are saying the entire conversation is about mages.

YumScrumptious961 votes

Aside from the yas/zed midlanes, most my other lanes are all mana champs who do just fine. You just cant sit there and spam spells all lane phase then wonder why your always out of mana. Budgeting mana has always been a part of the class. Quote from first response.

dont get me wrong, i never said spaming abilities in lane, i am talking about them being able to trade/harass much more efficiently and costlessly(i dont think dis is a word). with nealy equal amount of dmg and defensive power the one uses mana always ends up losing the trade because when u both chunk a pot ur enemy goes to full stat and u still have half ur mana pool empty and waiting for that 1.5mana regen/sec.

u can definitely budget ur mana during laning but there is noway u can just aa during trades. and in many situations u need to use abilities to get the cc such as ad champ uses aa reset skills for under turret cs and mages use their abilities because their aa in early game is too weak for underturret last hit. Quote from you.

That started the argument on mages. Now for God's sake actually look at what you've said.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

Aside from the yas/zed midlanes, most my other lanes are all mana champs who do just fine. You just cant sit there and spam spells all lane phase then wonder why your always out of mana. Budgeting mana has always been a part of the class. Quote from first response.

dont get me wrong, i never said spaming abilities in lane, i am talking about them being able to trade/harass much more efficiently and costlessly(i dont think dis is a word). with nealy equal amount of dmg and defensive power the one uses mana always ends up losing the trade because when u both chunk a pot ur enemy goes to full stat and u still have half ur mana pool empty and waiting for that 1.5mana regen/sec.

u can definitely budget ur mana during laning but there is noway u can just aa during trades. and in many situations u need to use abilities to get the cc such as ad champ uses aa reset skills for under turret cs and mages use their abilities because their aa in early game is too weak for underturret last hit. Quote from you.

That started the argument on mages. Now for God's sake actually look at what you've said.

here is how u do a quotation "such as ad champ uses aa reset skills for under turret cs and mages use their abilities because their aa in early game is too weak for underturret last hit"

all i said was ad champ and mage need to use their ability for proper last hitting under turret.

YumScrumptious961 votes

As far as I know, the only champs that go mid, where the first person was speaking about, are mages or non mana bar champs. Therefor, everything I've said still applies. Stop trying to save your weak argument.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

As far as I know, the only champs that go mid, where the first person was speaking about, are mages or non mana bar champs. Therefor, everything I've said still applies. Stop trying to save your weak argument.

how does the content of the first reply got to do with what i said? i had been talking with multiple people not just the first reply, u need to actually read through the posts.

YumScrumptious961 votes

Do you not understand how the comments work? I responded to this specific set of comments. We haven't been talking about anything else. Seriously what the hell are you thinking when you make these replies?

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

Do you not understand how the comments work? I responded to this specific set of comments. We haven't been talking about anything else. Seriously what the hell are you thinking when you make these replies?

probably cause i am using mobile view and u are not?

YumScrumptious961 votes

Then actually figure out how that has been messing you up instead of just trying to make you seem like you have a better argument?

Pasta Help Desk2 votes

Pretty much what everyone else here has said. You just need to learn to budget your mana better. Maybe try investing in some good mana regen items on your first back will help you out a lot more than buying a flat ap item like item 1026.

The Deckowner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pasta Help Desk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-23T19:19:52.746+0000)

Pretty much what everyone else here has said. You just need to learn to budget your mana better. Maybe try investing in some good mana regen items on your first back will help you out a lot more than buying a flat ap item like item 1026.

what about a play ad casters who doesnt build mana

edit: mana isnt too much a problem for mages since they build athenes or morello for mana regen, but what about all the fighters/tank/assasin

Ralanr1 votes

If you're a caster, you probably use mana as a resource. If you don't then there is no point to your point.

Anyone who uses mana benefits from building one mana item.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

If you're a caster, you probably use mana as a resource. If you don't then there is no point to your point.

Anyone who uses mana benefits from building one mana item.

so u saying all mana champions should just buy mana item instead of flat stat/utility items for their first buy? then ur lane is lost.

Ralanr1 votes

Frozen heart and iceborn gauntlet are decent choices.

If you can budget your mana then you don't need to buy a mana item early.

Meep Man1 votes

Well...

item 3003 item 3174 item 3508 item 3100 item 3092 item 3110 item 3025 item 3004 item 3800 item 3027 item 3078 item 3050 item 3165

Your choices aren't exactly class limited. Also, buying a Morrelo is not exactly a bad first back item or Athene's. Neither is Manamune or anything like that. Rod of Ages is a great first back item. Heck, even Frozen Heart or Iceborn could be argued.

The Deckowner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-24T04:55:04.280+0000)

Well...

item 3003 item 3174 item 3508 item 3100 item 3092 item 3110 item 3025 item 3004 item 3800 item 3027 item 3078 item 3050 item 3165

Your choices aren't exactly class limited. Also, buying a Morrelo is not exactly a bad first back item or Athene's. Neither is Manamune or anything like that. Rod of Ages is a great first back item. Heck, even Frozen Heart or Iceborn could be argued.

the only ad item, here is ss reaver(adc item) and triforce(hybird item), where is the mana item for ad fighter/tanks/assasins.

(i admit many tanks build fh, but definitely not all and the item is only situationally useful.)

Ralanr2 votes

item 3025

You do understand that Spellblade is a great ability on fighters?

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

item 3025

You do understand that Spellblade is a great ability on fighters?

u do realized iceborn gunlet scales off ap right

Ralanr1 votes

Not anymore.

item 3025 +65 armor +500 mana +20% cooldown reduction Passive UNIQUE – SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack (on-hit) creates an ICY ZONE around the target for 2 seconds. This zone has a radius of 190 (+ 45% bonus armor) units. (1.5 second cooldown.) UNIQUE – ICY ZONE: Deals 125% base attack damage as bonus physical damage to all units within the area of effect and slows them bySlow icon 30%.

item 3057 lost the AP it gave.

Twiggles2 votes

This is 100% incorrect. item 3025 gives 65 Armor, 20% CDR, and 500 Mana. The spellblade proc is 125% of your base AD dealt as physical damage. Please check your facts, especially when the numbers I just gave you pop up every time you hover over Iceborn Gauntlet's icon when inserting it in the forum.

Pasta Help Desk1 votes

Can you explain what you mean by this in more detail. Are you talking about a champ like Lucian who doesn't have access to a lot of the mana regen items because they are mainly for ap? Or are you talking about what to do as a mana champ when your first back consisted of something like item 1056 item 1056 item 3114 and you wanna know how to fight them as the other guy will have the ap advantage?

The Deckowner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pasta Help Desk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2015-12-23T19:30:06.002+0000)

Can you explain what you mean by this in more detail. Are you talking about a champ like Lucian who doesn't have access to a lot of the mana regen items because they are mainly for ap? Or are you talking about what to do as a mana champ when your first back consisted of something like item 1056 item 1056 item 3114 and you wanna know how to fight them as the other guy will have the ap advantage?

i am mainly talking about ad champion who doesnt usually build mana regen/flat mana items such as assasins/fighters/some tank how dont build fh or iceborn gunlet.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-23T19:36:04.977+0000)

i am mainly talking about ad champion who doesnt usually build mana regen/flat mana items such as assasins/fighters/some tank how dont build fh or iceborn gunlet.

The only AD Assassin that has Mana is Talon, Maybe Kha'zix if your not playing him Jungle. Can't say much about them since I don't play Assassins that often. But when I do, I tend to find myself bullying or killing my opponents, long before mana becomes a problem. For an Assassin, Mana isn't something you need to regenerate. It just needs to hold out until your job is done.

Most Fighters have Taken up Corrupting potion. Seems like a fine replacement for flask. And those champs seem to only have said problems in the early game. Which is what Corrupting potion is so good for.

As for tanks, I'd argue the one's who don't build FH are most likely Juggernauts. But Juggernauts, (like Assassins) can do their Job long before the mana runs out. But most Caster Tanks should build FH. Simply put it, Your CC is your Defenses. Your enemy can't hurt you if their CCed. And a lot of those same spells apply to their offensive capabilities as well.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

The only AD Assassin that has Mana is Talon, Maybe Kha'zix if your not playing him Jungle. Can't say much about them since I don't play Assassins that often. But when I do, I tend to find myself bullying or killing my opponents, long before mana becomes a problem. For an Assassin, Mana isn't something you need to regenerate. It just needs to hold out until your job is done.

Most Fighters have Taken up Corrupting potion. Seems like a fine replacement for flask. And those champs seem to only have said problems in the early game. Which is what Corrupting potion is so good for.

As for tanks, I'd argue the one's who don't build FH are most likely Juggernauts. But Juggernauts, (like Assassins) can do their Job long before the mana runs out. But most Caster Tanks should build FH. Simply put it, Your CC is your Defenses. Your enemy can't hurt you if their CCed. And a lot of those same spells apply to their offensive capabilities as well.

i mianly use the mana for wave clear/last hitting and trade back the enemy harassment when i play assasin and fighters. champions such as talon, gangplank and fiora need to use their skill alot.(talon qw,gp q and fiora qwe)

its true that most tanks build fh, but i can say rammus is a exception. maybe there are more i cant call them out right off my mind.

ur points are mostly right tho.

Hayaishi22 votes

Stop trying to wave clear at level 2 and try to fucking last hit with AAs and freeze lane.

The Deckowner1 votes

{quoted}

Stop trying to wave clear at level 2 and try to fucking last hit with AAs and freeze lane.

who the fuck said one used abilities to waveclear at lv2, often first back is around lv6 now a day and u will get push in/poke down if u dont use ur abilities to waveclear against a manaless champion starting at lv3 where they can destroy ur minions while u aa.

Ale non è male1 votes

Now that the starting gold has been increased and item 1004 cost has been reduced, you can go with Faerie Charm x2 (or x3) + pots + pink ward, and this start is very doable if you are worried about mana regen, eh

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Hey, at least you can back more often to buy mana regen items.

We supports actually have to wait longer and can't necessarily rush that because of the importance of sightstone, and need to spam more often than you solo lane mages do.

The Deckowner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cE6xQyne,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-12-23T20:04:16.189+0000)

Hey, at least you can back more often to buy mana regen items.

We supports actually have to wait longer and can't necessarily rush that because of the importance of sightstone, and need to spam more often than you solo lane mages do.

i play support 2 and the only solution is tell ur adc to not go agressive.

Gigahappytown1 votes

Buying 2 3 dorans gives infinite mana

ad casters can take the mini chalice mastery since all of them go into cunning anyways.

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