Especially when RIOT's balance team bounces back with 
and ensures that a hefty amount of the roster can now access the burst potential of Assassins pre-sin rework. ): It makes NO sense to me.
It's like saying we want to do the climate some good by reducing gas emissions and shift to fuel that's better for the environment only to then literally start ripping the ozone layer apart.
Shaydrox20 votesRemoving instant 0 counterplay burst damage was a good idea, and still is tbh. It's just that 2 things went wrong:
First off, you'll need to remove instant burst from everyone, not just assassins, or else they're gonna feel bad. Looking at certain adcs who can 100-0 faster than some assassins, that is a serious problem as they carry less of the risk since they have range. Secondly, the execution wasn't amazing. LeBlanc, Rengar, even Fizz to some extent failed. If the reworks had been handled better, I think the game would've been far better off.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Diamond2Kappa2 votesFizz burst was never instant and 0 counterplay tho and Riot said that themselves before doing the reworks, thats the worst thing xd
BobaFlautist9 votesFizz was fine except for the games he went 4/0, hit lich bane + 300 AP, and pressed Q to delete the adc.
He wasn't especially strong, since after teams group it's much harder for assassins to make plays, but it was pretty bullshit.
And I say this as a former Fizz player that had a blast deleting adcs.
Diamond2Kappa1 votesWhats funny is that both Q and W do more damage now. So if they reverted him he wouldnt go back to "WQ oneshot" (which worked because of it proccing thunderlords ), he would do less damage with it lul
BobaFlautist3 votesNo, it worked long before Thunderlord's was a thing. His abilities might do more damage now, but you can dash out of his Q, his E has a way higher cooldown, and his W has a delay instead of being instant.
Mr values are so low right now that old fizz would 100% still one-shot people with Q with 300 AP and lich bane (and W) - not sure how Electrocute would work with it, if it would instant proc he'd take it, if not he would take Dark Harvest.
I can 1-combo squishies with Morg Q+W+Ignite if I get an early Haunting Guise and Sorc Boots, old Fizz would have absolutely no problem deleting squishies.
Diamond2Kappa1 votesSo he oneshots people with just WQ right now?
BobaFlautist1 votesIf he has 300 AP and a Lich bane, and is allowed to proc empowered W, Fizz 100% will 1-shot a squishy with WQ. How is this even a question lol...
Diamond2Kappa1 votes**instant **and 0 counterplay
.
is allowed to proc empowered W
this is about just WQ, without waiting 2 seconds to proc the mark, and he doesnt kill people with that ever.
BobaFlautist1 votesYour point was that he has more damage now - he has more damage with empowered W, less without. So if we're discussing it in terms of him having more damage now, it only makes sense with empowered W.
It's hard to tell if you're being disingenuous on purpose or if you genuinely lost track of the thread of conversation, but I would appreciate it if you stuck to one claim at a time if you want to actually have a discussion.
YumaS2Astral1 votesTo be honest I miss Fizz's old W. It allowed Fizz to be at least useful against tanks due to the missing health damage. Just like Evelynn nowadays (she is an assassin, but due to having percentage health damage, if she is forced to focus a tank, she can do at least decent damage against them, whereas other assassins are laughable against tanks)
It also allowed AD Fizz 
to be a thing (it can still be done nowadays, but after the nerfs to Fizz's base damage, it became a much less viable build. peharps with Klepto it can still work)
Shaydrox1 votesQ and W only do more damage if he waits on the W cook time, which gives enemies more time to at least do something, no matter how fed Fizz is. Not to say I think they handled Fizz well, because they didn't imo, but this argument is not exactly correct nor does it represent the sitaution well
Diamond2Kappa1 votesBut
Even a non-empowered W rn does 60 + 40% AP damage, before the rework 1 auto attack (or Q) with W did 30 + 30% AP. His Q also has 55% AP scaling now, before it had 35%. So if he cant oneshot people with WQ now, which he cant, he definitely couldnt if he got reverted.
Shaydrox1 votesAhh right they did nerf the Q numerous times before the whole rework happened, my bad I did forget that.
In any case his problems haven't honestly been fixed, which is unfortunate as there are such few good assassins right now.
invisiblecat117 votesThe issue isn't the removal of instant burst on assassins, but rather the inclusion of instaburst on mages and ADCs Now Assassins have to sit next to their target for multiple seconds, and hope they don't get bursted immediately Just play a game of LeBlanc and see how difficult it is to stand 1.5 seconds next to a Shiv IE Vayne
ApexInTheCircle16 votesThe issue isn't the removal of instant burst on assassins, but rather the inclusion of instaburst on mages and ADCs Now Assassins have to sit next to their target for multiple seconds, and hope they don't get bursted immediately Just play a game of LeBlanc and see how difficult it is to stand 1.5 seconds next to a Shiv IE Vayne
It's really sad when some adcs are better assassins than assassins.
Sexy Jack Rabbit10 votesThe issue isn't the removal of instant burst on assassins, but rather the inclusion of instaburst on mages and ADCs Now Assassins have to sit next to their target for multiple seconds, and hope they don't get bursted immediately Just play a game of LeBlanc and see how difficult it is to stand 1.5 seconds next to a Shiv IE Vayne
Tbf mages have ALWAYS been insta-bursting. Syndra, Lux, Ahri, etc. Have always had burst that worked the way it currently does.
Auz the Ripper4 votesIn fact they toned down a lot of mage’s burst during the mage class rework
Vad Nova2 votes[{quoted}](name=Sexy Jack Rabbit,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cBFRXHFq,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-01-31T04:58:46.708+0000)
Tbf mages have ALWAYS been insta-bursting. Syndra, Lux, Ahri, etc. Have always had burst that worked the way it currently does.
lol. Ahri isnt bursting anyone unless she is pretty fed. Unless you consider using two rotations to kill someone equal level and cs as "burst"
RainbowIcee6 votesthe issue varies though. For example 
don't have to wait around, they can just go right in and kill you. 
pretty much needs a full rotation so does 
before core items. But none of them are as bad as 
that was the one imo hit the hardest. However before the sin rework lb was the cancer of the game.
Serika Zero3 votesThat's a lie. I've practice a lot of Katarina post rework and what you are saying is absolute lies. Yes, she doesn't have to wait for her "burst" if her burst is just EQ gunblade and R. Which will translate into: 15 / 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 (+ 50% AD) (+ 25% AP) + 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 / 195 (+ 30% AP) + 25 / 37.5 / 50 (+ 22% bonus AD) (+ 19% AP) per dagger with each dagger getting shot every 0.166 seconds for full channel: 375 / 562.5 / 750 (+ 330% bonus AD) (+ 285% AP) for 1 second if we are talking about insta burst it would be 6 daggers. Or: 300 + 132% bonus ad + 114% ap
And finally gunblade UNIQUE – LIGHTNING BOLT: Instantly deals 175 - 253 (based on level) (+ 30% AP) magic damage
So, assuming max level for all abilities and lv 18. We have: 75 + 195 + 322 + 253 as base damage 845 damage. +50% ad + 25% ap +30% ap + 132% bonus AD + 114% ap.
For a total of +50% ad, +132 bonus AD + 169% ap. Kat has 112.4 AD at lv 18. Gunblade has 40 AD So, that means kat has 152 AD, with 40 being bonus ad. So, she gets 76 damage from 50% ad. And 52.8 (lets say 53) from the bonus AD scaling on her ult.
So, that's 129 damage +169% ap.
Generally a full kat build has around 500ap or so.
80ap
80 ap
70 ap
80 ap
120 ap (+35% ap)
580 with above build.
So, the 169% ap would mean: 980 damage. Which is 1109 damage from scaling. And 845 base damage. For a total of: 1954 damage.
Which is very low for a lv 18 burst. For you to understand just how low that burst is. This is Syndra's R. 1260 (+ 140% ap) at max lv and max balls set-up.
So, if we say Syndra also has the same build with 580 AP. Syndra would do 1260 + 812 damage, or 2072 damage.
While a feed syndra just like a feed katarina can one shot you fairy easily. Assuming a non feed situation, that damage is not enough to kill the enemy adc or mid laner. You won't be doing true damage to them. And they will have heals and shields and peal from their team.
Anything below 2500 burst will not one shot unless feed while you are underfeed or without any resistance items or support from your team. So, in order for Kata to exist in fights and so on, she has delays, more exactly, on her daggers.
Her usual combo would be: E gunblade Q W, pick W and hit the target with passive, then E on the target to also pick up another passive from the Q and then R. Or E gunblade Q W R and your combo is complete when then W is picked up.
This is the scaling on Kata's daggers: dealing 75 - 287 (based on level) (+ 100% bonus AD) (+ 55 / 70 / 85 / 100% AP) So, that's 287 base, with +40 from bonus ad and + 580 from the ap. For a total of: 907 extra damage by picking up a single dagger (usually W) or one that was set-up before hand.
And adding the 907 to the damage above, 1954+907 = 2861 damage, which is above the 2500 mark which gives her a chance to kill her target. But again, you got a delay till the dagger from W falls to the ground (1 second, well, 1.25s) where the target can escape. And ofc, if we add in another passive proc and another E proc, then the damage will go above 3500.
So, she either has a delay in her assassination or the target must be stupid enough to walk over daggers planted and visible on the ground (unless is a brush). Saying that Kata has no delay is absurd.......... Yes, a feed Katarina can one shot easily. A fed Zed is going to kill you with just his WEQ, maybe a W swap and hitting an auto attack at most. A fed Draven is just going to auto attack you twice and you are dead and that takes less than a second as well. A fed vayne can just Q aa aa and you ded.
But we are not judging balance by fed champions.....
Starcraft243ver4 votesWhich is very low for a lv 18 burst. For you to understand just how low that burst is. This is Syndra's R. 1260 (+ 140% ap) at max lv and max balls set-up.
Syndra's burst isnt zone burst. And syndra do not have any mobility.
Serika Zero1 votessyndra also has a long range stun, and her burst is from range and she also has dps via Qs, and even more CC with her W and she can steal buffs easily with her W.
The point wasn't to compare Syndra to Katarina. The point was the show their damage in perspective. Especially because people call Syndra the "press the skill button to kill" (referring to her R being ranged and high damage).
Seems like logic doesn't flow well with you people... You just love hating stuff. Its kind of sad honestly.
Lord Phazanor 5 votesthe issue varies though. For example
Fizz needs to stay around for 2 seconds like LB though.
Auz the Ripper2 votesThat’s if he didn’t hit his target with his ult
SH Azykan4 voteshe at least has his E to give him the ability to avoid a lot of damage while waiting around. Leblanc doesnt
Pierce The Veal1 votesthe issue varies though. For example
Akali, though strong (mainly cause they buffed her numbers until she was usable), feels like shit to play. Super gimmicky, super clunky.
RainbowIcee2 votesyea akali feels very bad to play idk how her mains feel. Her kit needs a lot of polishing. Even if she isn't really weak is very offputting.
Pierce The Veal1 votesNice to finally see someone agreeing with me instead of going straight into how strong or weak she is.
NineTailedMystic1 votesbut rather the inclusion of instaburst on Zoe and ADCs
ftfy
invisiblecat11 votesI said mages for a reason I was kinda focusing on Zoe, but a similar case is held for Anivia
NineTailedMystic1 votesMages have always had burst though.
invisiblecat11 votesSome mages have always had burst However, Zoe is really the only one who can instakill you, and this case holds true for all mages that have ever existed
Infernal Ironic1 votesThe issue isn't the removal of instant burst on assassins, but rather the inclusion of instaburst on mages and ADCs Now Assassins have to sit next to their target for multiple seconds, and hope they don't get bursted immediately Just play a game of LeBlanc and see how difficult it is to stand 1.5 seconds next to a Shiv IE Vayne
just play a game of vayne against good le blanc and see how you have to stand 1600 range away from her not to get one shot
Zed genius1 votesplaying leblanc after the rework when she's not overpowered is so feelsbadman
vgamedude8 votesYou literally die to an adc as an assassin before your "delayed burst" comes online lmao
ChaddyFantome4 votesYou literally die to an adc as an assassin before your "delayed burst" comes online lmao
Even when their support is absent. It's ridiculous.
Glory to God6 votesI feel like, while the intentions were good, counterplay has been implemented into most Assassins' kits in a very inelegant way. Mostly talking about 
and
Pommel Knight7 votesYep, got the worst of it. He can't melee shark and is a full melee champion. He has to wait for 2 seconds for his aa enhancer to get ready, a squishy assassin needs to aa someone first then wait and use ability once.
His only spamable ability is q on max rank, which he maxes last, that does 70 dmg at rank 5 and is a set mobility spell that is bad to use while in melee. He also relies too much on his r now that it's just a game of hit or miss.
Teridax686 votesinvisiblecat1 made a good point that the problem with assassins isn't so much the removal of their innate upfront burst, but rather the fact that many champions who aren't meant to be bursty now have comparable burst. I'm personally very glad assassins give more opportunity for their opponents to actually do something to avoid getting assassinated; the issue I take is that many other champions get to kill enemies about as fast without giving them that chance, and on top of that there are far too many cheap defenses in the game which counter assassins pretty hard. Items like Duskblade and Statikk Shiv I think are largely responsible for providing upfront burst to champions who shouldn't have it, whereas the current meta in which Stopwatch is a common pick, in addition to support and marksman defenses still being far too effective relative to how easy they are to supply, puts assassins specifically at a disadvantage.
As mentioned above, the core issue with Duskblade is that its heavy on-hit damage provides front-loaded burst to literally anyone who buys it, without in any way relying on the wielder's innate burst to be more effective. In addition, its vision-based reset already spaces its burst out, presumes that the user will drop out of sight in the middle of combat, and expects them to autoattack multiple times. The only champions capable of doing this consistently are Kha'Zix, Shaco, Twitch, Vayne and Wukong: of these five champions, only two of them are assassins. The fact that Duskblade is so popular, including on champions without stealth, and including on non-assassins (and including on non-assassins without stealth), simply goes to show both how overpowered the item is, and how poorly-designed it is for its intended function. In order to change, Duskblade, and Lethality items in general, need to be returned to synergize specifically with AD assassins, who might also potentially benefit from baked-in Lethality scalings to their kits. Additionally, its mode of damage needs to change, because even in a world where the current Duskblade is picked only on AD assassins, it still creates a problem where those assassins all have access to front-loaded burst, whereas AP assassins have been forced to back-load their own damage.
Beyond that, I think there are more changes that need to occur in order to help assassins stand out without overbuffing them: on one hand, cheap defenses such as Stopwatch, life steal, health/resists on damage items, and most support heals and shields in their current iteration need to be kept under much tighter control, so that even if they can still protect the recipient against assassins, they should not be as guaranteed to do so. On the other, bursty damage sources of items also need to be reined in, so that only burst champions get to apply meaningful burst, and Statikk Shiv in particular I think needs to change completely, as it is a major reason why the damage output of marksmen feels so bursty, and lacking in counterplay as a result (in fact, an IE crit proc from Shiv will outdamage even Duskblade's own on-hit burst). Beyond that, there are likely many more kits that are too bursty for their intended niche, but that likely needs to be addressed on a per-champion basis.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votescan u explain these terms ?
to front-loaded burst, whereas AP assassins have been forced to **back-load **their own damage.
im pretty sure ap zssassins arent so lacky thnks to
Teridax684 votesFront-loaded = happens at the beginning of combat Back-loaded = happens at the end of combat, or after a notable delay
Also, out of the 7 AP assassins currently in the game, only 3 consistently build Gunblade (Akali, Katarina and LeBlanc), whereas Duskblade is commonly bought by all AD assassins, and even quite a few non-assassins on top of that. This is in addition to much more forced ability-based delays on AP assassins, such as LeBlanc's mark, Kat's dagger setup, Evelynn's charm, and so on, whereas AD assassins are typically able to lay down much more upfront burst via basic attacks and quick-fire abilities, as is the case for Kha'Zix, Rengar, or even Zed, in spite of his own 3-second delayed ult.
invisiblecat12 votes<3 Basically what I was trying to say
Evil Yasuo5 votesLaning against specifically Veigar and Zoe is literally now impossible. And yes, they 100% of the time take stopwatch to make things worse.
ChaddyFantome5 votesI don't care nor do i believe it is a problem that Assassins don't instabig people anymore. The problem is that ADC's and mages are doing it easier , quicker and more safely than Assassins now.
I'm fine with the delays, but the ADC I'm killing probably shouldn't be bursting me faster than I burst them, on top of having Lifesteal and DPS. Same can be said of Divers atm as well, who actually 1tap like ADCs of old while having defenses.
Nerf ADC damage to make them more DPS oriented again.
Enselus5 votes
1 doing 1k from the fog of war isn't fun?? What??
######/s
pseudo dionysius4 votesSome champions are just more equal than others my guy.
lolipopevelynn4 votesEspecially when RIOT's balance team bounces back with
It's like saying we want to do the climate some good by reducing gas emissions and shift to fuel that's better for the environment only to then literally start ripping the ozone layer apart.
riot just wants the game to be ADC centric. this is evident now more than ever. the game is LITERALLY dictated by how good or bad your bot lane is. doesnt matter what elo you are in. its the case at all levels. its horrible design. in the 2-2.5 seconds it takes an assassin to wait for his/her burst the ADC has already killed you. twice.
Stand Alone Wolf4 votesIt's like saying we want to do the climate some good by reducing gas emissions and shift to fuel that's better for the environment only to then literally start ripping the ozone layer apart.
Or like Trump saying he wants to restore the neutrality of the internet that was ruined, and gets Ajit Pai to fix it.
caIicko kitty3 votesIm not sure why Riot put in the delayed bust assassin gimmick but allows for adc to have the most burst in the game via crit. Its frustrating seeing adc auto attack through delayed burst only to kill the target before the burst goes off. Most of the time it ends in a trade of kills or the support comes in to save the adc.
