On your opinion; does Coin line's gold gain need to be nerfed, or the other two need to be buffed?

YumaS2Astral··4 votes·747 views

There is currently a controversial discussion to whether item 3301 item 3096 item 3069 item 2302 are busted and generate too much gold, or item 3303 item 3098 item 3092 item 2301 and item 3302 item 3097 item 3401 item 2303 are garbage and don't generate enough gold.

Buffing the other two items would mean every support could finally have a chance to get their items as fast as their teammates and be a better teamplayer, while having less chances of falling behind. This is proven by the fact that even if Ancient Coin's stats are actually subpar for many supports, those supports still use it just because it generates so much gold. This would probably require tuning support item's gold costs, but could have the potential of being a healthy change in the long term, since a support wouldn't need to have cheaper items just because it has less gold. This could even allow them to have more cost efficient items with better stats, even if those items are going to be more expensive overall.

26 Comments

Shuyin1783 votes

Phreak talked about this during the recent patch notes preview he does every patch.

He was saying along the lines of Coin having high gold generation but having the side effect of next to no combat stats. Spellthief's gives AP and extra damage while Targon's gives HP. Meanwhile the only thing Coin gives for combat is 5% CDR.

In addition to the lack of combat stats, it also has the weakest quest reward. Saying that Targon's gives a shield for tanking and Spellthief's gives movement speed for repositioning and overall movement, while Coin just gives your allies minor movement speed that is limited to them moving toward you.

So in short, you get faster gold generation with Coin, but you are sacrificing combat stats and an actual quest reward. Because of that, I tend to buy Coin (not upgrade it), get its gold up to the quest reward, then sell it for one of the others. That way I get the gold I need faster while having combat stats for later.

GinoSoldier2 votes

But later on, upgraded Talisman gives out a swanky 45 Armor and health regen to make tanks jealous. Fully upgraded, it's actually pretty darn good. It's active is also arguably better (certainly more flexible) as it can affect your whole team instead of just two targets like the others.

Zone of Endless2 votes

{quoted}

Phreak talked about this during the recent patch notes preview he does every patch.

He was saying along the lines of Coin having high gold generation but having the side effect of next to no combat stats. Spellthief's gives AP and extra damage while Targon's gives HP. Meanwhile the only thing Coin gives for combat is 5% CDR.

In addition to the lack of combat stats, it also has the weakest quest reward. Saying that Targon's gives a shield for tanking and Spellthief's gives movement speed for repositioning and overall movement, while Coin just gives your allies minor movement speed that is limited to them moving toward you.

So in short, you get faster gold generation with Coin, but you are sacrificing combat stats and an actual quest reward. Because of that, I tend to buy Coin (not upgrade it), get its gold up to the quest reward, then sell it for one of the others. That way I get the gold I need faster while having combat stats for later.

But support don't really care about combat stats though. They don't care about damage unless they're playing Zyra/Brand. Traditional support like Janna, Sona, and Lulu care most about their utilities. Coin currently have the highest income potential of all three starting item and that's allowing them to get their support items much quicker. Not everything in the game is about damage especially when you're talking about support that are not mage support because at the end of the day League is still a strategy game.

zaire902 votes

Just saying those 3 are all enchanters and are some of the few that actually use coin so wouldnt say traditional since theyre all in one category of the traditional supports

Lordk0z1 votes

Every last drop of hp counts when you're holding a block of ice between your team and that goddamned Twitch

MysterQ2 votes

Relic Shield line (upgrades) needs a higher autoexecute as well. Lategame everyone will clear a wave before you even get 3 autos off, and even if you do get autos off you won't execute anything.

PopcornBunni2 votes

Coin's pick up radius could do with being lowered, but the other two, especially item 3302, need more consistent gold income. Let the shield line's minion health threshold be much more lenient, and have it generate an additional 5 gold regardless of what kind of minion dies.

item 3303 is a bit better off because it's easier to proc, and plenty of poke/shield hybrid supports flip flop between coin and spellthief's as is.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

the other two gold items can get a small buff to their gold income but regardless of what happens Coin's need to be nerfed. When that item generates as much gold as it does for doing pretty much nothing at all it is obvious it is busted

Darkdemon6531 votes

Neither

Coin's stats and effects are horrible compared to the other two, so I am perfectly fine with it giving extra gold.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

There is something wrong when, in spite of that, most supports would rather use Coin.

GinoSoldier1 votes

Sigh, here i go again.

I say buff all three to the point where Supports no longer lag behind in gold compared to the team, make every one of them unusable by other laners/junglers, and then raise the cost and item power of every support item in the game to be around 2600 to 3400 gold (Including these and Sightstone.).

Yes it would break the game for a whole month or so, until people got used to having 5 people per team instead of 4.5 people.

And when i say make them unusable by other laners, i mean keep Spellthief and Frostfang's restriction (and strengthen it and also make it apply to monsters.) on Frost Queen's, i mean code the Relic Shield line cut champion's damage to minions by half outside of the execute proc, I mean make Coin's line stop dropping coins when you kill minions and monsters, similarly to Spellthief's line. Hard restrictions that will block abuses, that if laners do take these items, they can no longer gain from minions and keep their income stable with the item instead.

When i talk support item buffs, i'm saying shove an extra 40 AP and on Ardent Censer and make the damage buff scale with player's AP (Like 5%), Buff the Magic Resist and AP per Mana Regen on Athene's. Give Mikael's Crucible actually useable stats, preferably for tank Supports. Give Sightstone some MR and Armor. Give Eye variants more stats in general. Give Frost Queen's Claim more damage on proc, or make it have an AP scaling, the Talisman of Ascension Magic Resist to match it's Armor, and so on, and so on. These would all be 400-1000 gold costlier, take longer to build but allow the support to have an impact that evens to that of the carries all the way to the late game.

Also, don't tell me other champions would abuse. Tanks will be tanks regardless where they go, if Mikael's or Sightstone happens to be slot efficient for them, i don't see the problem. For AP mages abusing this? I don't think Ahri, Akali or Brand would have ease proccing Censer or Athene's with any kind of efficiency in comparison to Janna, Sona and Bard, regardless of the item's potential. They'd still go for their still superior burst damage items. The main difference between AP mages and AP supports' builds would simply almost entirely rest on the item's passives.

*Also, for your question, i say buff FQC and FoTM income, obviously.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

Sigh, here i go again.

I say buff all three to the point where Supports no longer lag behind in gold compared to the team, make every one of them unusable by other laners/junglers, and then raise the cost and item power of every support item in the game to be around 2600 to 3400 gold (Including these and Sightstone.).

Then junglers get behind in gold significantly. After first clear junglers have around 950 gold while laners have 1300 at the same minute. The problem moves from support gold income to jungle gold income.

It's fine that two roles end up a little behind in gold because the point is to spread the potential gold income among the whole team so it doesn't go to waste.

GinoSoldier1 votes

If jungle gold doesn't equate lane gold, then as far as i'm concerned, jungle gold needs an amp. The issue with that is that early ganks would snowball junglers out of control really damn fast, as unlike supports, Junglers are often meant to go for kills which brings them significant income early game (or, you know, feed a laner two kills, that happens too.). Something like giving the fully upgraded jungle items a +10-15% gold bonus from camps might work however.

My ultimate idea of league is a game where every player caps at a similar power budget in terms of items bought. For supports, that means an increase in cost and efficiency of their items along with better income. For junglers it may mean something else. Tanks also get lesser items in comparison to carries. Tanks don't have a 3800 defensive item to buy, and i think it'd be nice to have (Just not a cranked up Thornmail, people would cry their eyes out.). Whatever is necessary for that goal to happen is fine by me.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Then junglers get behind in gold significantly. After first clear junglers have around 950 gold while laners have 1300 at the same minute. The problem moves from support gold income to jungle gold income.

It's fine that two roles end up a little behind in gold because the point is to spread the potential gold income among the whole team so it doesn't go to waste.

The whole point of a Jungle and support is that it was the best way to divide resources. If Support itemization Equated solo lane gold, you may end up with a comp that has a duo top lane, and no dedicated Jungler.

Aside from that, there's a logistical issue with making Supports get solo lane gold. Simply put it, Solo lane gold is not static, but a product of their CS. The actual income disparity is much higher and High elo and pro scene than it is for a Bronzy like me. (The 40cs at 10 minute Akali complains about me having APC level gold)

Big Lincoln1 votes

if they buff the others then their other items need to take a hit, especially enchanter items.

for how well they scale now they shouldn't get to full build so quickly

zlumpy1 votes

Just make relic subtract gold from other nearby players and it to your value if you have charges!

Barring that they could make the charges 3x the size and have a voice line tbat spams "Lemme last hit stuff, lemme last hit stuff!"

koshkyra1 votes

It gives almost no combat stats and has a really bad quest reward

I think it deserves to generate 20-30% more gold but w/e

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

It gives almost no combat stats and has a really bad quest reward

And despite this fact, people will use Ancient Coin instead of another gold income item that will give much better stats. Just because of the better gold income. I think this speaks for itself.

GigglesO1 votes

Coin shouldn't be nerfed, and FQQ route gives lots of gold. Relic line should give more for caster minions which are the minions supports are often forced to share. Just put a minimum gold income per minion on relic shield.

The Deckowner1 votes

The problem with Relic shield is teammates denying the support from procing stacks.

Reaper Soraka1 votes

idk... I really hate coin's passive even though it is pretty strong. I think it deserves good gold gen because the user isn't really getting anything out of it.

Spellthief's has a pretty meh passive as well, and constantly poking is just as dangerous as picking up coins. Brand and Zyra only get to use it on the first poke since their plants/DoT use up all charges. I'd boost Spellthief's Gold gen.

Relic shield is tricky on the other hand. It's passive is actually stupidly powerful on tanky champions since a lot of tanky champions already have some shield or high-defensive ability. It also doubles the amount of gold granted from executed minions (get 90 total from a cannon minion, 45 you 45 adc).

I think I would leave it's gold gen the same but I really don't know... MAAAAAAAAYBE reduce the cooldown a little on it because let's face it, once your adc starts 1-2 shotting minions your days of executing are over. Coins and poking still occurs often enough.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Supports don't need to be making more gold and bot lane doesn't need to be any more influential. It's already the most important lane by far and giving supports even more money would only make it even worse.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Coin definitely needs to be nerfed. Being able to make 2k+ gold off of a single item in a 30 minute game is bonkers crazy. I don't know if the others could use a buff, but coin definitely needs to be toned down.

chipndip11 votes

Other support simply can't keep up with the gold gen from coin. Once we nerf Ardent, the only thing left to nerf WILL BE COIN. Not sure why we're playing dumb as a community.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

Other support simply can't keep up with the gold gen from coin. Once we nerf Ardent, the only thing left to nerf WILL BE COIN. Not sure why we're playing dumb as a community.

Coin will generate more gold only if you manage to go to lategame. Games are over in 15-25 minutes. When I play supp with Talisman, it generates like 1500-2000 gold before the game is over. The items costs 2200 gold.

chipndip11 votes

How much gold do you honestly think the other items get in one match? If it's over 1k, you're...actually wrong.

Also, games are over at about 30 minutes these days. You can stop the pre-season bullshit now.

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