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im fine with removing wota from game...

LilxPaprika··4 votes·1,324 views

I just want to start by saying I'm okay with removing spellvamp, in part because I think it doesn't stand apart from lifesteal enough.

**Just don't make up reasons. **

I'd rather you guys say something like: "while we're removing spellvamp, we feel the changes that will take its place will provide more versatility"... or some bullshit like that.

{quoted} Source Spell Vamp - >We're killing Spell Vamp from the item system. We've been unable to get this statistic to be purchased on anyone >but Vladimir and his tuning has always been lockstep with it.

really vlad stomped you guys? Cmon give yourselves a little more credit. Vlad isn't even that ominous sitting at 46.5% win rate. I've seen you guys deal with a lot worst. if you look at vlad's patch notes he wasn't touched much for some time. I've seen you guys do incredible things to champions over the years, and come up with cool solutions. why is vlad somehow beyond you guys.

let me think for 2 seconds: oh how about something similar to yasuo's passive. Way of the Wanderer

critical strikes deal 90% damage, reduced to 75% damage on Steel Tempest.png Steel Tempest.

Spellvamp could be reduce to 80% effectiness on vlad. if just for the time being until you come up with a cool idea for vlad.

The community have dealt with a lot of crazy champions in the past, as you experimented with new things (like true damage/crit fiora) we're used to it by now. If it means it helps better the game in the long run i'd be okay with having vlad on par with fiora or poppy for 2 months.

{quoted} Source None of the Spell Vamp changes made throughout the years have been able to break this stranglehold.

were there that many? in recent years apart from wota ignore mr and having 15% i wouldn't say that's sure the old aura on wota was broken. Removing it was totally warranted ally enhancing auras are notorious for being extremely cost effective.

Plus how bad can it be when there's summoner 14 in the game. here's another idea off the top of my head: Add this to his passive: make vlad more suceptible to grievous wounds by 10%.

We've dealt with a lot worst. like the recent op item 3156 , devourer MasterYi etc etc

this would of been a great start for spellvamp. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TaXPYTao-spellvamp-100-scale-on-aoe-but-with-100-cap-as-thoughwas-singletargetoverlap-w-current-equation

7 Comments

La Barbotte3 votes

i would prefer it to be reworked tho, same for zephyr, instead of staight up removing it

1374341 votes

The problem is spell vamp is just too hard to balance due to the nature of spells/mages. Some are bursty, some are substain; some have high mana costs, some have low to no mana costs; some have higher cds, some have lower cds; some are single target, some are multi target. Lifsteal is more consistent/easier to control. It is based on AD (which you primarily get through items and champ stats) and AS (which you primarily get through items and champ stats and has a much narrower range than ability cds). It is easier to tune items which are available for everyone to make it fair, and champ base stats are easy to tune without wrecking the champion compared to abilities.

Yes you can give Vlad that passive and tune spellvamp- but then you just risk shifting spell vamp to being OP on someone else so it has to be nerfed to uselessness (again). Then what? Also give that mage Vlad's passive? They then have to consider every time they release a mage will this be OP with spellvamp? Getting it out of the game as much as possible is much healthier.

The new Catalyst passive is a much better approach. Spend mana to get health. The amount of health you get is based on mana spent. Then you don't have to worry about the actual spell's damage/effects, just its mana cost (spammy spells typically have lower mana costs, so get less health back).

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

The problem is spell vamp is just too hard to balance due to the nature of spells/mages. Some are bursty, some are substain; some have high mana costs, some have low to no mana costs; some have higher cds, some have lower cds; some are single target, some are multi target.

the post i linked to does a great job of handling the single/multi target issue. if that's the case then why is it not just a ridiculous to have item 3812 item 3156 item 2140 . In fact I think you could argue its even harder to balance this as you can can sustain from autos as well.

Yes you can give Vlad that passive and tune spellvamp- but then you just risk shifting spell vamp to being OP on someone else so it has to be nerfed to uselessness (again). Then what? Also give that mage Vlad's passive? They then have to consider everytime they release a mage will this be OP with spellvamp? Getting it out of the game as much as possible is much healthier.

you either can or you can't don't give me that "but then" bullcrap. You're just grasping at straws/hypotheticals here. If such another champion were to surface we could address it with due diligence and even prevent one from surfacing in the first place, that's what PBE is there for.

If anything if there's another champion that would rival a vlad said champion could also get a similar treatment. The lessons learned from vlad will help us avoid such things altogether. And lets be real how much of an issue can it be also when there's grievous wounds in the game. the more sustain a champion has the more effective grievous wounds would be against them. And sustain should always come at a cost be it damage etc. so long as tradeoffs are in place i can't see us having trouble.

The new Catalyst passive is a much better approach. Spend mana to get health. The amount of health you get is based on mana spent. Then you don't have to worry about the actual spell's damage/effects, just its mana cost (spammy spells typically have lower mana costs, so get less health back). like i said in the preface i have nothing against the new items I just don't like the bullshit reason they gave.

LilxPaprika1 votes

Another possibility would have been make grievous wound could be more effective on spellvamp across the board by 10%. 40% vs lifesteal/health regen, and 50% vs spellvamp.

Or could have his pool scale better with cdr by like 15%, but also have his sustain scale significantly less for every %points of cdr he has, that way he can heal the same with less cdr but spam his spells less and have pool up less often.

proof that there are soo many approaches that can be taken. I sincerely don't believe that its that hard.

Now its pretty much a must to build item 3065 on vladimir.

How about add increases all healing runes. There would be a cap of 25% like the cap on cdr. So they wouldn't stack with spirit visage. That way if I don't want to build spirit visage I can equip the runes.

WoonStruck1 votes

The problem with spellvamp isn't Vlad.

Spell vamp is the problem with Vlad. People need to stop getting these two mixed up.

Think about it. Unless AoE values remain gutted, it becomes the go-to item and provides insane burst healing to mages. Same with DoT. Non-interactive healing there.

Now also think about the fact that abilities have CDs.

This means unless the values are absurdly high to the point where single target would 50->100% heal someone, 90% of mages will not be able to make good use out of spell vamp.

The variability of spells is the issue, not Vlad. Even if Vlad weren't in the game, WotA would either be overpowered or never used.

Its a cool idea, but its broken in concept.

However, lifesteal in general should heal at least 20% less on ranged champions.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with spellvamp isn't Vlad.

Spell vamp is the problem with Vlad. People need to stop getting these two mixed up.

Think about it. Unless AoE values remain gutted, it becomes the go-to item and provides insane burst healing to mages. Same with DoT. Non-interactive healing there.

Now also think about the fact that abilities have CDs.

This means unless the values are absurdly high to the point where single target would 50->100% heal someone, 90% of mages will not be able to make good use out of spell vamp.

Its a cool idea, but its broken in concept.

However, lifesteal in general should heal at least 20% less on ranged champions.

What I dislike is the can't do attitude the developer gave. I'd rather he present it as a change in direction/choice. And this bugged me. So I just wanted to point out that it most certainly is possible to make spellvamp work.

and then go on and say... _None of the Spell Vamp changes made throughout the years have been able to break this stranglehold. _

Very few were made. pbe could have been used extensively for this and it wasn't.

this addresses aoe values: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TaXPYTao-spellvamp-100-scale-on-aoe-but-with-100-cap-as-thoughwas-singletargetoverlap-w-current-equation

and yet item 3812 gives as much as the spellvamp items. and you can get wrath elixir. like where's the logic. Since heals are essentially potential hp. its super effective with high resistance champions like Graves.

UmbraTrucido1 votes

I literally just realized they removed SV tonight while playing ARAM ... My mage aram builds have always included some spell vamp (I always got it for Raka, Karthus and Zilian.. even for AP Shaco). I think there is value in offering the chance for mages to build a little AP based sustain without having to build health regen. I still do have some Quints with it but rune builds are pretty tough to get right and having to blow all 3 quint slots for 6% is tough if you want any other appreciable gains. However at this point I now wonder if they've removed the mechanic all together rendering those quints useless as well - if so then that screws up my entire AP Tank build.

Either way all of this is to say that it does have a place in the game and it doesn't have to be relegated to the trash can just because it makes a champ potentially OP. You could make the same argument for high life steal on a range ADC, with Runaan's Hurricane and lots of life steal I've tanked champs into oblivion before. As for non-interactive healing how about when Garen stacks his out of combat heal with other healing? 200+ health per second means if he leaves combat for just a few seconds he's at full health. So arguments can be made that there are combos that can make lots of champs OP.. then again, I think they should do more to limit things like how many mushrooms teemo can have or nerf the cannons from heimer, I think those have the capacity for being bigger game changers than capping or removing spell vamp.

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