If Mobility and Assassins are soooooooo strong then why...

Space Bum··3 votes·1,173 views

Is Lulu not 100% pick or ban?

She HARD counters every single assassin and can go in any lane. Tank, ADC, Support, Bruser, APC, hell you can take her in the jungle if only to squeeze her in. She is also nearly impossible to dive without bring the whole crew and they are probably still going to lose at least 1.

BUNNY!

19 Comments

Adrian Umbra3 votes

Lulu is a good counter to assassins, but so are Vi (Ult to lock them down), Zilean (Ult to revive), Graves (close range burst and durability, especially with a support protecting him), Alistar (strong peel), Janna (dat disengage), Lissandra (ult provides both ends of the spectrum to counter assassins), Maokai (peel and damage reduction), and Shen (strong shield and peel). Of these, Lulu, Vi, Graves, Janna, Lissandra, and Maokai see consistent play at the competitive level.

The reason Lulu doesn't crowd out these champions for positions is partly her rather low damage without itemizing for it and her natural squishiness when she's not itemizing for it. You can turn her into a glass cannon, deal good damage, and use your support abilities to try to keep yourself alive, but if your ult is on cooldown, your ability to protect yourself drops drastically. Or you could turn her into a supportive bruiser, deal decent damage, and be an annoying lane bully who provides support later into the game. She cannot tank or engage like a Maokai. She cannot reset a fight like a Janna. Her damage is going to be lacking when compared to Graves or Lissandra. And her jungle is much, much weaker than Vi's.

Basically, the reason you don't see a ton of her is that she has drawbacks, especially when compared to many of the above champions. You're overestimating her strengths and underestimating her weaknesses. She still sees play because she's still a strong champion, but she's not the top of the heap.

Space Bum1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5YFGQdX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-21T16:26:40.201+0000)

Lulu is a good counter to assassins, but so are Vi (Ult to lock them down), Zilean (Ult to revive), Graves (close range burst and durability, especially with a support protecting him), Alistar (strong peel), Janna (dat disengage), Lissandra (ult provides both ends of the spectrum to counter assassins), Maokai (peel and damage reduction), and Shen (strong shield and peel). Of these, Lulu, Vi, Graves, Janna, Lissandra, and Maokai see consistent play at the competitive level.

The reason Lulu doesn't crowd out these champions for positions is partly her rather low damage without itemizing for it and her natural squishiness when she's not itemizing for it. You can turn her into a glass cannon, deal good damage, and use your support abilities to try to keep yourself alive, but if your ult is on cooldown, your ability to protect yourself drops drastically. Or you could turn her into a supportive bruiser, deal decent damage, and be an annoying lane bully who provides support later into the game. She cannot tank or engage like a Maokai. She cannot reset a fight like a Janna. Her damage is going to be lacking when compared to Graves or Lissandra. And her jungle is much, much weaker than Vi's.

Basically, the reason you don't see a ton of her is that she has drawbacks, especially when compared to many of the above champions. You're overestimating her strengths and underestimating her weaknesses. She still sees play because she's still a strong champion, but she's not the top of the heap.

Most any champion with an ult on cooldown is at a disadvantage, everyone you named infact.

Lulu is a safer pic than all of them though. She can be way behind and still be relevant.

She counter a ridiculous number of Champs more than anyone you named. Lissandra OP though. The only thing I think she has on Liss is that she can be a little more versatile with her build. Graves is a non-issue because he likes to get right up in people's face which is good for Lulu.

Space Bum1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Like Hugs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5YFGQdX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-21T16:41:50.546+0000)

Most any champion with an ult on cooldown is at a disadvantage, everyone you named infact.

Lulu is a safer pic than all of them though. She can be way behind and still be relevant.

She counter a ridiculous number of Champs more than anyone you named. Lissandra OP though. The only thing I think she has on Liss is that she can be a little more versatile with her build. Graves is a non-issue because he likes to get right up in people's face which is good for Lulu.

You also have zero games played as Lulu on your history. Maybe you need to try her out a few times.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

I tried her out. Several times, across many, many months. I'm not a good Lulu, thus I don't play her.

That doesn't stop me from knowing her strengths/weaknesses and knowing she's not NEARLY strong enough for 100% play rate.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

Lulu is absolutely not a safer pick than Maokai, Vi (in the jungle due to how easy it is to put jungle Lulu behind), Zilean, or Janna.

You also seem not to have read my arguments at all. Lulu's damage (especially lategame) is quite mediocre in comparison with most of the game, which is why she's generally played in a supportive lane bully role. She's much more VULNERABLE with her ult on CD than any of the champs above (with the possible exception of Janna). If she's behind, she's very easy to burst down, similar to most support mages when they're behind. You also lose out on one of Lulu's greatest strengths, her lane bully potential, as if she's gotten behind she can no longer knock around her opponent and delay their scaling.

Also, I find it funny that you're calling Liss OP when you're proposing that Lulu should be 100% play rate. The strength level you're putting her on is the same as Liss in the LCS, with her nearly 100% pick/ban rate in NA. OP is how strong you need to be to literally crowd out everyone else in every role. And could you list some of the champs she counters specifically that NONE of the above champs counter?

Space Bum1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Umbra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5YFGQdX,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-02-21T17:06:50.756+0000)

Lulu is absolutely not a safer pick than Maokai, Vi (in the jungle due to how easy it is to put jungle Lulu behind), Zilean, or Janna.

You also seem not to have read my arguments at all. Lulu's damage (especially lategame) is quite mediocre in comparison with most of the game, which is why she's generally played in a supportive lane bully role. She's much more VULNERABLE with her ult on CD than any of the champs above (with the possible exception of Janna). If she's behind, she's very easy to burst down, similar to most support mages when they're behind. You also lose out on one of Lulu's greatest strengths, her lane bully potential, as if she's gotten behind she can no longer knock around her opponent and delay their scaling.

Also, I find it funny that you're calling Liss OP when you're proposing that Lulu should be 100% play rate. The strength level you're putting her on is the same as Liss in the LCS, with her nearly 100% pick/ban rate in NA. OP is how strong you need to be to literally crowd out everyone else in every role. And could you list some of the champs she counters specifically that NONE of the above champs counter?

I worded the jungle in a way that I thought conveyed that it is her weakest role. I would not ideally place her there but it can be done. She is very capable in all other positions though.

You know what I can't, but from those champs I can't think of any they would counter that she can't and that says a lot more for lulu.

In my option Whimsy is better than Liss ult for one reason. The cooldown is drastically lower and it works just as well at nullifying a carry. I know Liss has other perks with her ult. But it is an ult.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

The reason I pointed out how weak she is in the jungle is that there's absolutely no reason to pick her over a Vi/J4/Nunu right now. Comparatively, it doesn't matter how strong of a support she is, the lack of pressure, clear speed, resilience, and dueling ability leaves her the subpar choice. Which is the main reason that she's not 100% pick rate. As capable as she is in all these positions, there are just flat out better picks for many situations due to her lack of raw damage, hard CC, and natural durability. In order to be as strong as you seem to think, she would need to be comparatively better than everything else. And she just isn't.

Also, siege mages/heavy poke. Lulu has difficulty dealing with ranged poke and champions who simply whittle their opponents down without walking right up to her target (See Xerath, Ziggs, Azir, Nidalee, Corki, Lux, or Jayce).

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Basically, the reason you don't see a ton of her is that she has drawbacks

Something more champions need to have.

Vecuu1 votes

Because as much as people make fun of Riot for balancing for LC$ big plays, they forget how much more fun it is to do flashy plays with lots of damage.

Space Bum1 votes

{quoted}

Because as much as people make fun of Riot for balancing for LC$ big plays, they forget how much more fun it is to do flashy plays with lots of damage.

Baiting assassins with lulu is flashy as fuck!

Let me just crush this little yordle that's at 25%hp.... %#[*I'm in the air +#&I'm a rabbit [&#-she slowed me DEAD.

Boltonator1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Like Hugs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5YFGQdX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-02-21T15:34:00.112+0000)

Baiting assassins with lulu is flashy as fuck!

Let me just crush this little yordle that's at 25%hp.... %#[*I'm in the air +#&I'm a rabbit [&#-she slowed me DEAD.

I recommend skipping! VROOM VROOM! item 3270 Lulu

Seriously, Lulu is such a fun champion to play, not just because she is a Yordle but because her kit just syncs so well with her role as a Fae Sorceress.

Space Bum1 votes

The same Champs you listed are also good vs Liss.

Nid is a bad example unless she is going to only rely on 1 telegraphed skillshot for her soul source of damage. Good luck with that.

You just said she lacks dualing ability -_-..... We're done here.

Space Bum1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Like Hugs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5YFGQdX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-02-21T18:33:47.079+0000)

The same Champs you listed are also good vs Liss.

Nid is a bad example unless she is going to only rely on 1 telegraphed skillshot for her soul source of damage. Good luck with that.

You just said she lacks dualing ability -_-..... We're done here.

Let me leave you with this though. My last game with lulu was vs Riven top. Riven is by definition a dualist. I forced her to lane swap while I was at 400ping during server turbulence. Right when she swapped my Ping cleared up. Kat came up. I spanked her. Lulu has high dualing potential because she makes it impossible to dual her.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Lulu is quite good in competitive play but most solo queue laners do not like playing a utility champion.

Space Bum1 votes

{quoted}

Lulu is quite good in competitive play but most solo queue laners do not like playing a utility champion.

Generally I agree with this. No matter where I take her I get damage items. Solo queue is an awful place for being strait utility with nothing to back it up. especially as support because God knows sometimes you have to carry in place of some of the trash ADC's you'll get matched with.

Zazusha1 votes

So is Annie and Lissandra, duh. Only they do it better then lulu.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

V4.13:

Glitterlance
    Decayed slow no longer scales with ability power (reduced to 0% from 13.3% per 100 AP). 
Whimsy
    Movement speed buff duration reduced to 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds from 5 at all ranks.
    Mana cost reduced to 65 at all ranks from 65/70/75/80/85. 

V4.5: Help, Pix! Damage reduced to 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 from 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280. Sight duration reduced to 4 seconds from 6. Will now only shield allied champion targets (can still target any ally).

Lwnt1 votes

{quoted}

V4.13:

Glitterlance
    Decayed slow no longer scales with ability power (reduced to 0% from 13.3% per 100 AP). 
Whimsy
    Movement speed buff duration reduced to 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds from 5 at all ranks.
    Mana cost reduced to 65 at all ranks from 65/70/75/80/85. 

V4.5: Help, Pix! Damage reduced to 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 from 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280. Sight duration reduced to 4 seconds from 6. Will now only shield allied champion targets (can still target any ally).

I hated season 4 with all those nerfs because of solo lane lulu. It was just not fair with not one compensation to support lulu. All they care about is support lulu viable and not caring about how much weaker support lulu is (ESPECIALLY EARLY GAME). Honestly any champion can be viable as support all you need is a little bit cc.

FFirebrandd1 votes

She was for a few months into last season... then she got hit by a nerf train.

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