Feel like Yorick has too much power tied to his ult

Big Lincoln·Jul 7, 2017·41 votes·2,741 views

namely that maiden is his only way of actively way spawning ghouls in a fight

since we're looking at yorick on the pbe with the intention of a weaker early and a better late, consider putting the ghoul summoning on one of his basic abilities? (let Maiden keep the minion->ghoul conversion)

i think the best spell to put it on would be W; when the wall expires or is taken down, have it leave 1/1/2/2/3 graves(following the same pattern as his wall's HP scaling with ranks). this is not significant in lane (actually a slight nerf to level 6 power spike when top laning), but later on when his wall is leveled and he has CDR it becomes a better spell for resummoning ghouls repeatedly in longer fights, and it takes a little power out of his ult to distribute it into his basic spells. it's also a modest buff to his jungling, where he can drop his W on blue side, so that blue+gromp+W gives him enough graves to spawn the ghouls he needs for a jungle clear.

thots?

78 Comments

AirKingNeoJul 7, 20176 votes

His ult is supposedly a lot of power budget, yet it also barely has much power.

Big LincolnJul 7, 201715 votes

it's actually very strong and he relies on it a bit but it doesn't FEEL strong for a couple reasons

maiden AAs are very "meh" so it's not as satisfying as yorick himself, she gets reduced damage by herself so she can't even fast push lanes alone, and her huge HP with no resists means marksmen use her as an HP refill

but with her you push hard, she gives you new ghouls, and adds mixed dps to your damage plus % damage to eat up tanks

AirKingNeoJul 7, 20171 votes

It should be physical damage so he can use Black Cleaver.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20172 votes

He can already use Cleaver very well, because ghouls apply stacks

he uses triforce for a few reasons: namely being tforce is better for killing turrets, and because ghouls die immediately after you throw them at someone you can't take advantage of their combined AD scaling

the change I proposed in OP solves the second issue

MatthewRT2Jul 7, 20175 votes

Honestly I just want a traditional yorick skin but that is besides the point. His kit is just too slow to be viable against bruisers and fighters. In lane all it takes is pushing yorick away from the graves or letting the wave push up so he has to decide between cs'ing and having his graves.

My proposed solution to this problem is change the q to spawn a ghoul when used on an enemy champ and epic monsters while removing the heal (when hitting an enemy champ) this change would make him feel a little like the old yorick I knew and loved as well as helping shift the power of his ghouls to not be so situational.

P.s- FOR GOD SAKES CAN WE PLEASE MAKE THE GHOULS NOT DIE IN ONE AUTO (I love it how my ghouls can face tank a Nidalee spear but die to sorakas basic)

Ariel the CruelJul 7, 20177 votes

Soraka You were warned to fear the banana. . .

SolarisCorvusJul 8, 20171 votes

I would hate to have the heal removed tho because it really helps yorick survive tough bullying lanes.

Wood Elo GodJul 7, 20173 votes

Never had that problem but I do have the one where E's hitbox is tiny and goofy so anyone with a brain can just sidestep the slow moving object with the .2cm hitbox.

Ivern and IreliaJul 7, 20171 votes

As a closeted Yorick enthusiast, i think adding some more ghoul interactions with with his e would be a wonderful idea.

Another idea i saw somewhere was for every 30 or 40 graves that Yorick creates (not from his passive), the max number of ghouls that he can have increases by 1. This wouldnt change his early game too much, but by late game it would help him out alot. Cuz lets be honest, his late game can be pretty meh.

DragonSheaJul 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ivern and Irelia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5BOAv3s,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-07-07T05:13:22.120+0000)

As a closeted Yorick enthusiast, i think adding some more ghoul interactions with with his e would be a wonderful idea.

Another idea i saw somewhere was for every 30 or 40 graves that Yorick creates (not from his passive), the max number of ghouls that he can have increases by 1. This wouldnt change his early game too much, but by late game it would help him out alot. Cuz lets be honest, his late game can be pretty meh.

Bad design bro. As awesome as it would be. Having to waste more time on summoning graves unless you create 2 or more graves per Q kill/proc/Takedown (which is too damn illogical even for games) is too much hassle. Yorick needs better means of summoning ghouls in lane not more ghouls.

It might be awesome to turn an entire minion wave into ghouls but you'd suck in teamfights and it would be too broken.

Ivern and IreliaJul 7, 20171 votes

Good point. But i think the OP's idea of spawning graves from his w would help with this problem.

Meep ManJul 7, 20171 votes

I don't think his W should have ghouls tied to it being destroyed, as that's punishing enemies for making use of the ability's counterplay. It's like saying, "You either sit down and get yo ass whooped, or you kill this wall and make it so he could potentially whoop yo ass even harder." The better option would just for it to spawn a ghoul/grave for every enemy caught inside. That's a natural late game boost since at most 1-2 people will be in a lane at a time, but up to 5 can be in a team fight.

ÐelofashtJul 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't think his W should have ghouls tied to it being destroyed, as that's punishing enemies for making use of the ability's counterplay. It's like saying, "You either sit down and get yo ass whooped, or you kill this wall and make it so he could potentially whoop yo ass even harder." The better option would just for it to spawn a ghoul/grave for every enemy caught inside. That's a natural late game boost since at most 1-2 people will be in a lane at a time, but up to 5 can be in a team fight.

The counterplay to the wall is not destroying it, but using a dash to ignore it. The majority of the roster has a dash that goes through walls at this point, this change really only gives Yorick a tool to generate some graves with a 4 second delay basically.

Also, in your scenario it assumes a few things, like Yorick already having mistwalkers up, which if you are trapped in a wall and he already does then you are still getting your butt whooped, and if he does not then he really only has a single Q/E to hurt you. Destroying your way out of the wall means giving him the means to generate graves and maybe some mistwalkers, but you are free to just casually run away. Also the numbers tuning proposed means that he will not be generating enough to instantly summon walkers until way late in the game (unless he opts to ignore all his damage skills for a pure utility skill ).

Big LincolnJul 8, 20171 votes

I think it makes the spell more interesting. Right now there's no reason NOT to destroy the wall as soon as possible -- with this, there's some risk to it late game once he starts leveling the spell. This makes it actually functional as a zoning tool and gives it a decent strength against champions who would otherwise dash out of it and then effortlessly destroy it.

It also backloads his summoning, so that people can avoid the wall and then try to pull him away from it so that he can't make use of the graves later. In addition it would only spawn enough graves to give him a free summon at max rank, which means you're either giving up your E damage or you're waiting until level 18

Tobias BracknerJul 7, 20171 votes

Yorick has plenty of damage in his Q. The maiden is nice because it buffs your damage but it is far from necessary. He also doesn't need ghouls in a fight. They are mostly early laning and splitpushing.

DragonSheaJul 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5BOAv3s,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-07-07T08:38:59.657+0000)

Yorick has plenty of damage in his Q. The maiden is nice because it buffs your damage but it is far from necessary. He also doesn't need ghouls in a fight. They are mostly early laning and splitpushing.

Nope. Alone it does so-so damage but with item 3078 + item 3053 It can hurt like a motherfucker but Yorick as no damage for the next 7 to 5 seconds. My suggestion is to have Last Rites cause Yorick to deal bonus damage for a small duration after he has cast it, It can synergize better with 's Attack speed.

Tobias BracknerJul 7, 20171 votes

Yeah, of course you have those items. Pure tank Yorick is crap. Since we are talking about teamfights its most likely going to be in the 6-5 second range (Before you pick up CDR items). And I've never had that cooldown be a problem. In a super explosive teamfight, maybe but put that on the right target and they are going to go down fast if an assassin pops in on them.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20175 votes

try to fight someone with no ghouls and no maiden

you'll get your shit kicked in

Tobias BracknerJul 7, 20171 votes

Nah, I've kicked plenty of ass w/o ghouls or maiden. Especially during a teamfight where I have a lot of support (and am supporting my team).

DragonSheaJul 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5BOAv3s,comment-id=000f0001,timestamp=2017-07-07T15:14:49.630+0000)

try to fight someone with no ghouls and no maiden

you'll get your shit kicked in

That is the worse part about Yorick.

warpenguin555Jul 7, 20172 votes

well yeah, the ghouls are where a ton of his power is. Thats kinda the point of the character

sirwaterflesJul 7, 20171 votes

Dont know if this is the way to go but love that yorick is getting some attention and a nice discussion.

Teridax68Jul 7, 20171 votes

I think one of the issues with Yorick's ghoul management is that he starts out with one way of summoning ghouls, then almost completely drops it in "real" combat in favor of another, so he never puts his whole power to the best use. In lane, Yorick needs to summon ghouls slowly, because otherwise he'd revert to pre-VGU Yorick status and be a pain to play against, but in actual combat he needs a means of summoning a bunch of ghouls instantly, which his ult currently provides. Once he reaches level 6, he basically has no reason to summon goals the basic way unless he's splitpushing.

What I think could help Yorick is if the model for his Q summoning were tweaked a little: if Yorick could use Q to summon ghouls around himself whenever, and recharged through minion/champion deaths instead of relying on static lane-based objectives, he'd be able to have ghouls when he needs them at all stages of the game, while still giving his opponent breathing room in lane. As an example:

Q - Awakening: Yorick summons four Mist Walkers to his side. Has an X-second (long, probably static) cooldown, reduced by Y (a small amount) every time a non-champion enemy dies near him, and Z (a quarter of the cooldown) every time an enemy champion dies nearby or he kills an enemy with Last Rites. While Awakening is on cooldown, Yorick gains access to Last Rites instead.

(In fact, you could probably make Yorick passively auto-summon four ghouls and/or refresh his roster periodically, and have the cooldown get reduced by the above, without having to keep it as an active)

Re: his ult specifically, I think he can do without the bonus on-hit effect. As it stands, the Maiden of the Mist is meant to be a fairly independent minion whose strength lies in her summoning and durability, and who should be pretty good as both a splitpusher and an in-combat aid. Giving Yorick a bonus for autoattacking her target, i.e. tying some of his power budget into an effect he will not use all that frequently, is one of the reasons he feels weaker than he truly is. Making Yorick and the Maiden more independent from each other would allow him to be a strong splitpusher, while still having good options in teamfights.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20171 votes

so make his Q like taric's? that could work out

maiden sucks at splitpushing anyway, she has reduced dmg by herself, and i dont mean the bonus onhit effect

Teridax68Jul 7, 20171 votes

Yeah, the Maiden's on-hit effect only works on non-structures, and requires Yorick to autoattack the target in order to activate it, so when deployed to splitpush she only personally deals at most 40 + 50% AD magic damage per second. If the Maiden is balanced around weak autoattacks when splitpushing, then so be it, but in the end she should still be a threat on her own when either pushing or assisting Yorick in teamfights.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20171 votes

personally deals at most 40 + 50% AD magic damage per second.

no, this is what i'm talking about. THIS damage gets reduced when the maiden is by herself.

Teridax68Jul 7, 20171 votes

I don't think there's any special reduction to that damage, and if I'm mistaken I should probably update the wiki. From what is listed, this is her autoattack damage at Rank 3, and isn't affected by any special damage modifiers when the Maiden is by herself.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20172 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/yorickmains/comments/6jnoco/changes_in_testing_for_314/djfn0r9/

proof

Teridax68Jul 7, 20172 votes

I had absolutely no idea this was a thing, thank you very much for listing this! I'll update the wiki accordingly, as this has a pretty significant impact on Yorick's strats as well. I completely agree that this mechanic should be removed, as it's a pretty big case of lack of clarity.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20171 votes

i'm gonna complain about it when i feel like writing

i think i made 2 many threads recently

Teridax68Jul 7, 20171 votes

That's not necessarily a bad thing; your threads tend to put forth good discussions and dare to give unpopular opinions with sufficient backing, which I think is a good model for many others on Gameplay to follow. This is also a topic that deserves to be brought up in an environment where many players are dissatisfied with the current state of Yorick, and where Riot is taking a closer look at his power output. This isn't to say that you should be the one to make a thread about this, but for sure you don't need to hold back just because you've been especially active just before.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20172 votes

not always xd

revert sej pls

Guy Fox TeemoJul 7, 20171 votes

You underestimate how powerful the ont hit effect for his maiden is, it's REALLY strong; Removing it would have serious implications. Would need to significantly buff ghouls

Teridax68Jul 7, 20171 votes

That's my point, actually: I'm not saying the Maiden's on-hit effect is weak, I'm saying it's a very large amount of power reserved for an effect that doesn't really mesh all that well with that she's supposed to do, i.e. act independently and be a threat herself. Because Yorick already has a lot of his power budget dedicated to his ult, it might therefore be better to remove that effect and buff him elsewhere instead.

SolarisCorvusJul 8, 20171 votes

I think it gives yorick a little flexibility with how he can use his ult. Sometimes ill summon maiden in a fight and thanks to the on hit dmg makes me a bigger threat afterward i can heal her up and take her to lane for her to push which i find really fun.

Teridax68Jul 8, 20171 votes

I think that was the intent of the on-hit effect as well, but in practice I feel it actually ended up achieving the opposite effect. Coupled with the hidden reduction to ghoul/Maiden damage when they move too far from Yorick, the on-hit effect basically means that if Yorick deploys the Maiden to splitpush independently, he "wastes" a ton of power by having a lot of his kit damage locked away. By contrast, if the Maiden didn't have those effects, she'd be equally strong whether she'd be close to Yorick or pushing on her own. Being able to push a lane you're not in does qualify as an extra amount of power, but considering you'd also be sacrificing a pretty powerful ult to use by your side in a fight, that in itself carries a significant tradeoff as well.

Jew StomperJul 7, 20171 votes

Feel, or think?

ChompyWulfJul 7, 20171 votes

My thought is if his rework needs reworked already and if Riot won't even bother to invest in giving the poor guy a skin, just put him in a grave and out of his misery.

Big LincolnJul 7, 20172 votes

i don't think he needs a big overhaul

just some power shifts to make him feel better

ChompyWulfJul 7, 20171 votes

The way I see it, they can't figure out how to make him a better champ and at this point are wasting resources on him. I mean really, how many other champs need balancing or buffing more than this guy?

DaNinadJul 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5BOAv3s,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-07T00:55:39.089+0000)

thots?

lol

warpenguin555Jul 7, 20171 votes

Maybe let Yorick summon a ghoul if his e hits a grave?

JetvaJul 8, 20171 votes

Nothing to see here...move along, move along ;D

JetvaJul 8, 20171 votes

Yorick is great now, and it took a long time to get him that way. Also would love an Arcade skin for him like Shovel Knight Yorick.

Variks the LoyalJul 8, 20171 votes

I like the idea.

I do, though, think that both Yorick and the Maiden should have their own individual ghoul counts. Maybe enforce individual counts while they're together, but if they really want that 'can splitpush two lanes at once' fantasy, then they need to have their own individual ghouls.

Also, reduce the Maiden's max HP and let her have some scaling resists.

LemonsIsGoodJul 8, 20171 votes

[deleted]

ÐelofashtJul 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Meh, I want his kit to stay like it is now, but just want some bugfixes and a way to control the Maiden. That will make me a happy Yorick player.

The kit changes proposed in the OP are minimal, better graves generation, less reliance on Ult. Maiden control takes just timing her push in lane with a nearby jungle camp spawn, E the camp to pull her out of lane as she nears the camp.

Big LincolnJul 9, 20171 votes

I really hate having to rely on jungle camps to pry my Maiden away from a lane

speaking of, I really hope this change gets noticed if they're gonna keep working on Yorick; I've been doing a little toying with AD builds in practice tool and it feels so much stronger than the Triforce stuff. I don't want Tforce to NOT be an option on him but Cleaver builds are held back by having such poor summoning outside of minion waves

ÐelofashtJul 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c5BOAv3s,comment-id=001900000000,timestamp=2017-07-09T02:49:41.017+0000)

I really hate having to rely on jungle camps to pry my Maiden away from a lane

speaking of, I really hope this change gets noticed if they're gonna keep working on Yorick; I've been doing a little toying with AD builds in practice tool and it feels so much stronger than the Triforce stuff. I don't want Tforce to NOT be an option on him but Cleaver builds are held back by having such poor summoning outside of minion waves

Yup, I have always hated the reliance on minions and monsters of the rework.

Pure AD builds are stronger than trinity, which puts all of his damage in his Q, but obviously his damage is spread out more meaning he doesn't have the same level of burst.

ScarletVixenNov 23, 20171 votes

I've always struggled against Yorick. His entire kit is design to dominate lane completely. Harassing him constantly is an obvious focus to prevent him from getting graves, but that gets difficult as Yorick gains the ability to get this easily as he builds Trinity Force. With his minions, his aoe trap and if he ults you, the damage he can do overtime is massive, much more so than what any melee bruiser like Darius can dish out.

The worst part is how tanky the minions are to aoe's. It takes x4 the amount of aoe damage to kill them but a single aa from anyone kills them immediately. Yorick is also one of the few champs that can legitimately swarm a tower with minon waves, his own minions and ult. I wish I knew how to deal with him in the top lane, but I have a super hard time no matter who I'm using.

I feel like the easiest way to deal with a Yorick like this is to play as safe as you can and wait until ARAM mode begins where he sort of falls on power wise because of ally support. Otherwise his lane strength feels like one of the strongest in the game.