So Kalista's "weakness" is one of her biggest strengths

Fed by Snu Snu·Nov 21, 2014·81 votes·28,938 views

Not being able to cancel auto-attacks means there is no space for human error in her orb-walking sessions of attack-hop-attack.

The wind-up also means nothing, because most cc directed at her will also have a travelling time, so she has enough time to skip and jump away in 9/10 cases of skillshots, which is the majority of cc nowadays,because point and click abilities were considered toxic.

Do people at Riot even understand the term "weakness" anymore?

98 Comments

CupkekNov 21, 201444 votes

Taric Outrageously Countering Kalista since 2014

MartyrofsandNov 21, 20144 votes

Outrageously Countering Kalista since 2014

Try Annie, she pops Kalista a lot harder than Taric does, not to mention imo she is one of if not the best support to play with Kalista.

DurzakaNov 21, 20142 votes

Outrageously Countering Kalista since 2014

Try Annie, she pops Kalista a lot harder than Taric does, not to mention imo she is one of if not the best support to play with Kalista.

No way. id much rather have a Thresh than an Annie support as Kalista. The only good thing annie has going is her AA range. Her syngery with Kalista's ult is almost non existant.

MartyrofsandNov 21, 201413 votes

No way. id much rather have a Thresh than an Annie support as Kalista. The only good thing annie has going is her AA range. Her syngery with Kalista's ult is almost non existant.

Um Kalista ult throws Annie into ult range leading to a very long lock up and a crap ton of damage right on top of whoever they want. Kalista's ult does what Annie generally needs to have flash to do, IE get in range for tibbers. The two have amazing synergy together and the combination is pretty damn brutal through-out the game.

DurzakaNov 21, 20142 votes

No way. id much rather have a Thresh than an Annie support as Kalista. The only good thing annie has going is her AA range. Her syngery with Kalista's ult is almost non existant.

Um Kalista ult throws Annie into ult range leading to a very long lock up and a crap ton of damage right on top of whoever they want. Kalista's ult does what Annie generally needs to have flash to do, IE get in range for tibbers. The two have amazing synergy together and the combination is pretty damn brutal through-out the game.

Annie already has decent ult range. If you want to argue like that, literally anyone with an AoE ult would be a good combo with Kalista, which isnt true.

The maximum benefit is when the champion who is thrown, can actually do more damage as they are thrown. Such as with Thresh, it gives the knock up, and then thresh is in prime position to ult, Flay, and Hook someone, instead of needing to hook someone to engage in the fight.

MartyrofsandNov 21, 201412 votes

Annie already has decent ult range. If you want to argue like that, literally anyone with an AoE ult would be a good combo with Kalista, which isnt true.

The maximum benefit is when the champion who is thrown, can actually do more damage as they are thrown. Such as with Thresh, it gives the knock up, and then thresh is in prime position to ult, Flay, and Hook someone, instead of needing to hook someone to engage in the fight.

Um Annie's ult range isn't decent by any stretch of the imagination, her lack of range is actually one of the reason she got kicked out of mid lane with lack of mobility being the other. Kalista puts Annie int perfect position to ult as well as land the rest of her damage to set up kills and engage team fights.

Thresh isn't bad but he doesn't need Kalista to start a fight and he doesn't even get close to Annie's damage. Beyond the ult combo Annie's 625 AA range makes it easy to poke someone down with Kalista's W passive in lane, Thresh might get some decent damage when he jumps in but unless he is going against someone like Leona the he most likely won't get a lot of AA harass off, and he definatly won't get as much as Annie will.

Your argument for Thresh boils down to "Kalista provides an additional way for Thresh to do what he already does" mean while for Annie its "Annie can exploit the W aspect of Kalistas kit better than other supports, in additiona Kalista's ult accounts for Annies weakness in low spell range." Thresh doesn't even get close to the synergy Annie has with Kalista.

CG SereNNov 21, 20141 votes

Kalista's ult does what Annie generally needs to have flash to do, IE get in range for tibbers.

Or, you know, actually practice and work on her strategies until she doesn't need to rely on a summoner spell to get her kit to work...

...just saying, I haven't used flash for almost 3 years now, and I still do pretty damn well. (And having TP instead of flash let you do things...THINGS!)

"Break the bonds of flash and let your champions kit fly free!"

MEMEME670Nov 21, 20141 votes

Uhhh, sure...

Why don't you go tell all the LCS players to do this, and see how that works out...

Were the game PvE, things like this might work. But in a PvP game, people know ranges and simply don't put themselves in that range if they don't want to, hence why you need flash on Annie.

CG SereNNov 24, 20142 votes

Who cares what LCS does? Are you playing on an LCS level, because i'm not, i'm only Gold, and i made it there without ever using flash.

In a massive open area with global vision? Sure.

Thats why bushes/wards exist.

And if you are suggesting the ADC simply never gets in range of Annie, then she can zone them out of farm, simply by walking into the creepwave, no?

The problem with theory crafting is that it doesn't consider the real world conditions, there are games where Annie is ultign at pointblank because they had vision control and the ADC walked into her. No flash required.

I Main SwainNov 21, 20141 votes

id much rather have Leona. then again, Leona beats everybody almost

DurzakaNov 21, 20142 votes

id much rather have Leona. then again, Leona beats everybody almost

I almost mentioned Leona in my post, but with her as a support, procing W is almost impossible except in all ins, which is a major downside.

TheTwilightNinjaNov 21, 201410 votes

I was about to say. All of these people are complaining about Kalista being op. I can see why for people who say, main someone like Ezreal might say that due to the difficulty in lane. I get it. This will take time to learn to counter play, and if you are the unlucky chap who gets hard countered by her in blind pick or you have not quite figured out how to play agains her, oh well, but as far as supports go, I still maintain that a good Morgana or Janna with some practice can outplay her. This game has SKILLSHOTS. Emphasis on skill. When you get to the point where you can predict her jumps, with some proper changes to the jump distance scaling with boots or with changes to say the percent health damage, she would be fairly average to lane against. I personally still maintain that the Fabswag botlane of Ezreal Taric is powerful, even vs say a Kalista Leona .

OfallingNov 21, 201410 votes

I recently played a game in which I, as Janna, howling galed at Kalista under her tower and she dashed into it - as I half-intuited, half-prayed-to-almighty-xenu she would. Thus killing her dead. Er.

Then I played a game in which I landed root after root on her as Morgana, and threw pools she was still in after her dash: it's not impossible to predict her ideal moves, zone her, and just... land things.

Maaaybe, at worst, she's slightly OP and maybe the range of her passive needs tweaking, or she needs some other tweaks. But frankly, it's too soon to tell. And also, try thinking laterally.

Besides, maybe she'll shift the meta to include a bunch of ranged junglers to better gank her or something. That'd be awesome.

JunkοNov 21, 201417 votes

Now play against her as an melee champion

FeathermaneNov 21, 20146 votes

Does count?

AnduragaNov 22, 20143 votes

Vi probably one of the most annoying champions to have to run away from.

not a starburstNov 22, 20145 votes

Or anyone with skillshots. Or anyone with low mobility. Or any ADC with short range.

supes the lostNov 22, 20143 votes

Random Fact: people have a tendency of dodging upwards, it's really noticeable with champs with movement abilities.

LightningfstNov 22, 20143 votes

I'd like to see a Diamond or greater play her. I would expect she would be untouchable.

Battlecast SonaNov 21, 20144 votes

I personally hold that Lulu is one of kalista's hardest counters. Drop that shield on her, Q her, polymorph... WHERE ARE YOUR JUMPS NOW?

TaoistMasterNov 21, 201414 votes

Taric item 3800 item 3143 item 3069

Try to get away from us now bitch!

QuephaNov 21, 201413 votes

it's a certainlyt champ, he thinks 10% reduced crit damage is a weakness

JunkοNov 21, 201414 votes

The balance team thinks that, not CertainlyT. CertainlyT just designed it "Charges shield and moving and has double crit chance in exchange for reduced crit damage". The balance team is the one that made it "Charges 500 hp shield every 1000 units moved and doubles his crit in exchange for 10% reduction".

CG SereNNov 21, 20143 votes

And it was RIOTScruffy who ran skarner into the ground...

Enraged PigletNov 22, 20141 votes

yasuo was weak before they buffed him and found a really good build for him.

JunkοNov 22, 20142 votes

no he wasn't. a 500 shield refresh buff (which usually never happened because Yasuo had a ful shield before entering a teamfight) does not make a champion jump from useless UP to gamebrokenly overpowered. and Yasuo always had Stattik and IE as recommended items, so that excuse is dumb for the community being a giant sheep too

The WhamboozlerNov 21, 20147 votes

Her weakness seems to be in her overall damage output. She's crazy mobile, but she doesn't do the same kinda damage early as champs like Draven, Lucian, Graves or even Sivir. Her W passive is pretty nice, but doesn't put her on par with the aggressiveness of some other ADC's. Caitlyn in particular seems to give her trouble in lane. Late game she's nowhere near the damage of Vayne, Kog'maw, Tristana or... Lucian again. (Lucian probably needs a nerf to be fair). She also needs to be chained at the hip to her support to have an ult. Her strength is being really, REALLY hard to pin down and her ease at dodging skillshots. The former isn't a huge deal, since locking her down somehow WILL end in her death, but the later is kinda annoying if you play a champ like Lux or Ez who are ENTIRELY skillshots and she invalidates them all with her passive alone. I had the same issue with Yasuo and his stupid spammy dash and I still think Fizz's trollpole is terrible design.

ForstoneNov 21, 20145 votes

Her weakness seems to be in her overall damage output. She's crazy mobile, but she doesn't do the same kinda damage early as champs like Draven, Lucian, Graves or even Sivir. Her W passive is pretty nice, but doesn't put her on par with the aggressiveness of some other ADC's. Caitlyn in particular seems to give her trouble in lane. Late game she's nowhere near the damage of Vayne, Kog'maw, Tristana or... Lucian again. (Lucian probably needs a nerf to be fair). She also needs to be chained at the hip to her support to have an ult. Her strength is being really, REALLY hard to pin down and her ease at dodging skillshots. The former isn't a huge deal, since locking her down somehow WILL end in her death, but the later is kinda annoying if you play a champ like Lux or Ez who are ENTIRELY skillshots and she invalidates them all with her passive alone. I had the same issue with Yasuo and his stupid spammy dash and I still think Fizz's trollpole is terrible design.

her low dmg output is called balanced. if you have a champ with such mobility and graves burst dmg, damn thats the prenerf lucian！

kDrakariNov 21, 20146 votes

I... think that's his point.

UnedibleNov 21, 20143 votes

Her weakness seems to be in her overall damage output. She's crazy mobile, but she doesn't do the same kinda damage early as champs like Draven, Lucian, Graves or even Sivir. Her W passive is pretty nice, but doesn't put her on par with the aggressiveness of some other ADC's. Caitlyn in particular seems to give her trouble in lane. Late game she's nowhere near the damage of Vayne, Kog'maw, Tristana or... Lucian again. (Lucian probably needs a nerf to be fair). She also needs to be chained at the hip to her support to have an ult. Her strength is being really, REALLY hard to pin down and her ease at dodging skillshots. The former isn't a huge deal, since locking her down somehow WILL end in her death, but the later is kinda annoying if you play a champ like Lux or Ez who are ENTIRELY skillshots and she invalidates them all with her passive alone. I had the same issue with Yasuo and his stupid spammy dash and I still think Fizz's trollpole is terrible design.

But doesn't locking anyone down usually result in their deaths?

KromNov 22, 20143 votes

This guy gets its. Saying "just chain CC and focus to kill ez" is kind of silly. For all the years Riot has spent defending nerfs against champions who made "low tier play unfun" its ridiculous to see a champ as frustrating to 1v1 against (for many heroes) as this make release. And the worst offense is the lack of [insert buzzword] Counterplay... another thing Riot loves to harp on.

In an even game you aren't gonna be able to burst her down in 2 seconds by yourself, which means for the following 10sec your stun is on CD she is just gonna hop around and poke you to death and theres nothing you can do about it.

CARPEN0CT3MNov 21, 20143 votes

Her weakness seems to be in her overall damage output. She's crazy mobile, but she doesn't do the same kinda damage early as champs like Draven, Lucian, Graves or even Sivir. Her W passive is pretty nice, but doesn't put her on par with the aggressiveness of some other ADC's. Caitlyn in particular seems to give her trouble in lane. Late game she's nowhere near the damage of Vayne, Kog'maw, Tristana or... Lucian again. (Lucian probably needs a nerf to be fair). She also needs to be chained at the hip to her support to have an ult. Her strength is being really, REALLY hard to pin down and her ease at dodging skillshots. The former isn't a huge deal, since locking her down somehow WILL end in her death, but the later is kinda annoying if you play a champ like Lux or Ez who are ENTIRELY skillshots and she invalidates them all with her passive alone. I had the same issue with Yasuo and his stupid spammy dash and I still think Fizz's trollpole is terrible design.

her real weakness is your own support

RikariNov 21, 20146 votes

Morgana : "yes,i finally predicted where she right clicked! it only took 17 minutes this time too! its finally gonna land!" Kalista : Q-Right Click.Dodged. Morgana : What's good on you tube?

Hope you main Blitzcrank cuz Thresh has no chance.

CozarkianNov 21, 20145 votes

So ultimately, Kalista is easier to play for low-skill players that make mechanical mistakes or have difficulty dodging skill shots, but harder to play against for low-skill players that have difficulty using prediction to land skill shots.

Do we have a candidate for a Bronze/Silver permaban and never played at Master/Challenger?

FrikgeekNov 21, 20146 votes

Except that she's also good in Master/Challenger because a hop on every auto makes you a kiting machine. Not to mention that shorter hops with low/no CD are much easier to abuse with decent positioning, opposed to those "FUCK THIS I'M OUTTA HERE" escapes(like Corki's or Trist's) with long cooldowns. She's basically Lucian on crack in terms of her kiting. Sure, she doesn't do quite as much damage but she's almost guaranteed to do that damage, no matter how hard you try to kill or zone her. Not to mention that you can't really "predict" infinite hops. As long as you don't hop in a super predictable pattern that is.

CozarkianNov 21, 20143 votes

I was under the impression Master/Challenger players were so good mechanically at stutter stepping that they are better off picking a higher damage ADC like Lucian.

FrikgeekNov 21, 20143 votes

Stutter stepping isn't magical. If you cancel the windup animation you'll end up doing no damage so you're still limited by your AS and attack animation. And there's a limit to how much you can kite with just stutter stepping, especially with tanks/bruisers having so much CC. Once they get in range, you're not getting out.

MEMEME670Nov 21, 20145 votes

That applies to Kalista also...

JunkοNov 21, 20141 votes

She requires teamwork for majority of her damage (W passive is most of her dmg early, and she can't use ult without teamwork), she will never be picked in Bronze/Silver unless you are duo with a friend or just really want to lose.

CozarkianNov 21, 20143 votes

Why do you think bronze/silvers make champion selections based on teamwork?

I was silver last time I played rank and I can tell you that outside of commonly known "synergy's" there is very little attention paid to siege v. poke v. split pushing comps.

People will pick Kalista and then whine that they did poorly because their soulbound sucked.

ChortleNov 21, 20143 votes

point and click champs do well against her. Annie Fiddlesticks Malzahar Nunu Pantheon Ryze Taric Zilean

{{summoner:10}} S1 baby{{summoner:10}}

48983507DEL1Nov 21, 20143 votes

point and click champs do well against her.

{{summoner:10}} S1 baby{{summoner:10}}

Annie wasting her only targeted ability on Kalista would sacrifice tremendous multi-target stun potential later in the game, although it could be strategic depending on the team comp. Annie is my fav, so I just want to defend her.

TakazakiNov 22, 20143 votes

Annie doesnt even need to Q since its almost impossible to dodge tibbers unless you KNOW that annie is going to use it and you have to flash as she goes in because tibbers is an instant summon and has 0 cast time.

Nameless VoiceMay 22, 20151 votes

The problem with Kalista is that she is completely binary. If you happen to be playing a champion who counters her, she's useless. If you happen to be playing a champion that she counters, you can't touch her.

It's theoretically "balanced", but it is the definition of awful design, when the game is decided by champion picks above skill.

2pudge1cupNov 21, 20143 votes

Bingo on the OP especially with this point:

she has enough time to skip and jump away in 9/10 cases of skillshots, which is the majority of cc nowadays,because point and click abilities were considered toxic.

The problem is largely from riot's perpetual myth that skillshots take skill and that point and click are unfun. Point and click abilities are needed to keep hyper-mobile champs in check. Right now with nothing to keep them in check, champ design is pigeonholed into requiring more and more mobility.

And @ posters saying you can "predict" where she jumps so it's easy to land a nami bubble and whatever nonsense you claim to be easy to hit: Have you played against a half decent one yet? You won't be landing that nami bubble or morg snare or whatever you think you'll land. A halfway decent player will start moving one way then AA cancel the other.

Kuroi86Nov 21, 20142 votes

Means if you want to really hurt her, you're going to seriously out play her and figure out where the player is going. Stressing even more the need to learn to lead your target. Brutal.

Blade10045Nov 21, 20142 votes

Or it seems something a lot of people are missing... Play someone like Caitlyn... or anyone that out ranges her for that matter. I have played many games against her and have yet to loose a lane against her. Though I have lost many kills of a support due to that ult. She is really underwhelming to me in all honesty. I look forward to getting her myself to see if she can actually be useful.

P.S. Why does it say I am level 10? I am level 30 on NA...

JunkοNov 21, 20143 votes

I have played many games against her and have yet to loose a lane against her.

She has been released for 24 hours. Please don't assume she isn't strong just because of that. Please remember what happened with Yasuo when he was considered underpowered on release (and went to OP BEFORE he got buffed)

MEMEME670Nov 21, 20141 votes

Sure, her version of orbwalking is very hard to do suboptimally (except choosing the wrong direction, but that would happen with regular orbwalking anyway.)

However, what happens when you want to fake someone out but can't? (IE walk in one direction then change, which you can't do if you just dash in one direction the full way). That's a weakness.

Also, even when she does her version of OWing perfectly, she gets like 60-80% of the distance out of it that other champions would anyway, so that's a big weakness.

And lastly, things like Zenith Blade or Grasping Roots have a much EASIER time hitting her as opposed to other champions, as she will still be in the spot she autoattacked in way after the time other champions would be, AND she has to commit to where she's going. (So, she can go anywhere on the edge of an oval based on her dash distance. Normal champions can go anywhere inside a circle (this circle is bigger than her oval to begin with) based on their movement speed. Much less options for Kalista to jump to.)

FantasySniperNov 22, 20144 votes

That's the point he's making.

Her strength also ends up being her weakness, but it is still so strong it over-compensates.