Riot's excuse about Lissandra's base mana regen holds no ground after Xerath's rework

Fed by Snu Snu·Nov 5, 2014·65 votes·6,341 views

Lissandra gets to pay the price of having a mana related passive by having her base mana regen and mana regen per level values absolutely gutted to a lowly 5+0.4/lvl. This has been the reasoning behind not buffing it for ages.

After Xerath's rework, he got himself a far superior mana sustain related passive, but he gets to have an astonishing 6+0.65/lvl base mana regen as well on top of it.

I won't even go into more details about how Xerath also is much safer to harass with than Lissandra in lane,he even gets to have 2 skills to harass with, this is straight up ludicrous now and has no argument whatsoever left after Xerath's new passive.

100 Comments

doubleguacNov 5, 201416 votes

Xerath's mana costs are also much higher than lissandras.

At level 18

Xerath: Q: 120 mana W: 110 mana E: 80 mana R: 100 mana

Lissandra: Q: 85 mana W: 50 mana E: 100 mana R: 100 mana

Xerath has high mana sustain but also very high mana costs. His mana sustain allows him to regularly poke, but spamming his spells in team fights will rapidly oom him. He also has to get in auto attack range to access a substantial portion of his mana sustain, to further gate his ability to spam poke in siege scenarios. His MP5 and mana costs are designed to force him to choose between itemizing for MP5 for sustained poke or itemizing for flat mana for more spamming in the short term.

More importantly, Xerath and lissandra fill totally different roles, so comparing their ability to spam spells doesn't tell you much. A better comparison for Lissandra would be swain. Swain has higher base MP5, but his ability costs are, again, much much higher than lissandras. If neither has any mana items, a swain will almost certainly oom faster than lissandra.

PredatoratorNov 6, 20142 votes

Oh god thank You!! thank you!!

I GONNA FK ON UNov 5, 201410 votes

Yeah, disregard the fact that Lissandra has a gap closer, a non-skill shot snare and her ult if she's in trouble.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 201413 votes

Irrelevant, other champions also have those and have normal regens as well. And the price she pays for those are range and overall danger to get something done. There are examples that don't even get to pay that in terms of power budget.

I GONNA FK ON UNov 5, 20149 votes

That was a response to your one-sided claims on Xerath having better laning than Lissandra, not a comparison of her with other champions. On a side note, I've never had mana problems playing Lissandra given I don't use my entire skill rotation when they're up.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 20145 votes

But he does have a better and much safer lane than Lissandra.

You're saying she has a snare. Xerath doesn't even need one and he still has a stun.

He also has an AoE slow. Lissandra doesn't before 6. The slow of Q applies only to the first target hit.

You are acting as if Xerath has no cc whatsoever when pre-6 he is quite close to her actually (while being miles safer) and only after 6 does she get a boost in her utility/cc.

I GONNA FK ON UNov 5, 20146 votes

Lissandra still has a gapcloser, along with which the ability to go through walls. But while we're here we might as well mention Swain, who has even lower range and real mana problems.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 20143 votes

So your argument falls flat and you are just trying to contrust a new one?

Actually, Swain doesn't really have mana problems until he uses his ultimate, which is the ultimate's whole design.

I GONNA FK ON UNov 5, 20144 votes

Yeah that's kind of the idea, no mana based champions have mana problems either until they use their abilities, lmao. And no, Lissandra's gapcloser keeps her at a similar level of safety in lane as Xerath.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 20145 votes

You can't use extremes to prove a point, it's like bringing up Katarina.

Swain's kit is normal, and he doesn't get oom from using it. His ultimate is an extreme, he does get oom from using it.

Lissandra gets oom from using her simple kit.

I GONNA FK ON UNov 5, 20147 votes

She doesn't; her Q is for farming and harass. Obviously you won't be close enough to use your W on the enemy champion and it's not the best idea to use her 20+ second cooldown E for harass either, when it'll likely miss. Sure she may get shoved to her turret by champions with more clear, like Ziggs, but that's not because of her mana constraints. She literally needs one item: RoA, Athene's or Moremelloticon and she will have no mana issues for the rest of the game.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 20142 votes

Noone has issues for the rest of the game after building these. The point is laning, not teamfights. A RoA and 2 doran's will, most of the time, suffice for the rest of the game.

And she would most likely be able to contest getting pushed at the turret if she had more mana regen.

BasilShadowreaveNov 6, 20141 votes

At this point your argument has fallen apart and you are trying to glue it back together with an even more broken argument.

majorashashNov 5, 20141 votes

[deleted]

majorashashNov 5, 20144 votes

Lissandra gets oom from using her simple kit.

From the experience I have playing liss, she definitely has mana problems (pre 10) if she is played like you describe , unloading her kit all at once is quite costly mana wise especially if E is at max rank the mana cost becomes 100, because as you said her regen is low, and I will add her base mana is quite low (so early it feels like she has mana problems but +50 per level is decent for when you're 6 you now have at least 520 mana). But the point of her passive is to chain her abilities into the most mana cost effective way, like if your passive+ult are up use that to cast a free ult, then since you (hopefully) cc'ed surrounding enemies as well, your passive may already be up for one of your next spells, because if my reading and understanding of her passive are correct, every enemy CC'ed reduces the passive cooldown by 1. This is also why I generally use her W in the middle of a minion wave in lane to reduce the cd of the passive much more allowing me to keep more mana in lane by utilizing my passive often.

tldr if you have mana probs as liss, l2 liss, build roa/athenes/mana or quit spamming so much.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 20142 votes

This is a discussion about her mana-regen, not comparing e-peens. If you want to play a champion who lacks something that they should have just so that you brag about it, may I point you towards Urgot instead?

a call beyondNov 5, 20149 votes

a lot of champs have gapclosers and cc and don't even use mana...

Rustling BushNov 5, 20141 votes

a lot of champs have gapclosers and cc and don't even use mana...

the only person that comes to mind is riven and zed.

oraNov 5, 201410 votes

And LeeSin , and Gnar , and Aatrox , and Renekton , and Rengar , and Shen , and Tryndamere , and Yasuo , and Zac .

Quite a few.

Auz the RipperNov 6, 20141 votes

To be fair, all of those have been cancerous at some point in their life times and shouldn't be emulated

DestínumNov 6, 20141 votes

When has Gnar ever been considered cancer? Most people see him as weak.

Auz the RipperNov 6, 20141 votes

Well, he's currently the 5th most banned champion, right behind Kha'Zix So something's up with him

RimoraNov 6, 20141 votes

I'm pretty sure that's because people don't want someone on their team playing him in a lot of cases.

Crimson5pheonixNov 6, 20141 votes

No, if you watch high level games, he's become popular. As it turns out, he's quite strong when played properly.

DestínumNov 6, 20141 votes

I guess others have finally realized it then.

JamnonNov 6, 20142 votes

The fact that some of them are now arguably balanced indicates that they may be safely emulated.

Stars ShaperNov 5, 201410 votes

I guess that it's connected to Xerath having to get into an unsafe position to get his mana back.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 201449 votes

Lissandra has to get into an unsafe position to do everything.

Stars ShaperNov 5, 20149 votes

Not really, she is balanced around the range she has (far shorter than Xerath) and her CC are AoE and not distance based, plus she has an escape.

Xerath has just his walking to get in&out of his AA range and his stun is null in melee range.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 201419 votes

Her bases and ratios are balanced around what she has.

Her mana isn't. It used to, but its on outdated designs as showcased by Xerath.

Stars ShaperNov 5, 20144 votes

I don't see it that way. It's a different approach to how regain mana. Liss has to cast spells, Xerath doesn't have to. This means that Liss has more chances to make use of her passive while Xerath kit (heavy AoE and heavy clearing potential) leave him without anything to AA and regain mana.

If you want to see what Mana issues are try out Jayce or Irelia.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 201415 votes

Im sorry, but that made no sense whatsoever.

Xerath doesn't have to cast spells? And how does he get anything done then?

Stars ShaperNov 5, 20143 votes

We are talking about the mana regen mechanic aren't we? Liss has a free cast after some spell casts, Xerath gets it from AA.

OrbvNov 5, 20145 votes

Yeah no. It's every 18 seconds, only reduced by 1 second for landing q, w, or R, not E. It defeats the purpose to have to use her abilities to be able to wait for the cooldown and cast it again.

Stars ShaperNov 5, 20141 votes

Oh yep, got confused with old Cassio one. Anyway seems still fair.

JamnonNov 6, 20141 votes

A close ranged mage relies more heavily upon abilities (seeing as they are mages) to achieve anything. Mages dont rely on AA as a significant source of damage anyway- not even Xerath. A long-ranged mage such as Xerath has the luxury of weaving AA (and is incentivized for doing so). He has the comfort of that range/space/safety, which Liss does not. The more time she spends in melee without doing anything (IE waiting for her CD instead of being rewarded for AA), the more time she spends dead.

Really quite simple.

Stars ShaperNov 6, 20141 votes

Too bad that she got tons of CCs a gap claser and a fast Q. She probably needs some tweaks but saying that Xerath is at fault or too better is bullshit.

They got different kits and are balanced around those.

JamnonNov 6, 20142 votes

Too bad she needs mana to cast those spells. Meanwhile, Xerath is seiging from behind the minion wave, using abilities, and still has space and mana to kill her with.

Stars ShaperNov 7, 20142 votes

wow 1 advantage against 3.

must nerf xerath.

OrbvNov 7, 20142 votes

Q for Q --> Lissandra gets a short ranged skillshot which can expand and slow Xerath has a long range skillshot that gets increased range the longer he channels

W for W --> Lissandra gets an** AoE root.** Xerath gets a long range slow, only 10% though

E for E --> Lissandra gets an AoE skillshot which can also be used as a gap closer Xerath gets a skillshot **stun **that increases in duration with distance.

R for R --> Lissandra becomes **safe **for 2 seconds or **stuns **for 1, with AoE slow either way. Xerath gets remarkable range 3 shot execute

Lissandra is arguably safer against the majority of champions because she has methods of escaping. Whereas Xerath is only safe because he can poke. In battle, Xerath would win against Lissandra. In teamfights....that really can go either way.

They can't be compared. But their passives kind of can. Xerath can effectively poke for a long time from long range, then go melee for a short amount of time for mana. Lissandra can only do damage in melee, it makes less sense for her to have to wait for a no cost ability when she's so close to dying.

Honestly they should have their passives reversed.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 7, 20142 votes

Just a clarification on your first point, Lissandra's Q slows only the first target hit. The AoE portion doesn't slow. You might already knew that, but thought it should be brought up either way.

Crimson5pheonixNov 6, 20145 votes

You think Liss is bad? Remember that Taric has god awful mana/regen and he used to have a mana regen passive which they TOOK AWAY. But they never updated Taric's mana/regen.

1337n00bh4x0rNov 6, 20141 votes

By the numbers sure, but playing Taric doesn't feel like you're OOM all the time unless you're spamming your stun / shatter. Keep the shield up, heal when you can and wait for them to make a mistake. I don't "feel" like I have a mana issue with Taric, just that I need to manage it.

Playing Lissandra, I "feel" like I have a mana issue constantly. XD

ElphrihaimNov 5, 20144 votes

But she's really strong outside of that, so if she gets mana regen worth something she should probably lose some damage...

I would just give her a non-mana-related Innate... For everybody not named Nunu, they seem problematic.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 20148 votes

She already has of the lowest base damages and ratios across the board.

EndlessSorcererNov 5, 20146 votes

Because every ability is AoE and 3/4 have CC.

DunderflumpNov 5, 20144 votes

Lissandra doesn't even have mana problems. Xerath generally needs to build a chalice or tear even with his base mana regen and his passive.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 5, 20144 votes

Lissandra can go oom even with a finished grail. Only with RoA does she acquire a big enough mana pool to function late game, which is one of the reasons it's a core on her. (apart from the needed tankiness)