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Sion's base health stats are pitiful for tank and the health gain per CS doesnt scale fast enough

KushDid420··11 votes·1,723 views

There have been other people lately talking about how sion is sub par right now for a late game supertank. With the thread not too long ago showing Sion's Champ.GG WR per game duration graph showing how he aparently has a lower WR the longer the game goes on.

I believe Sion is a balanced champion compared to the other scum we have running around (Fiora, Zed, Tryndamere) but he is a bit too weak in his health stats compared to other tanks.

Sion has wave clear gated by huge mana costs and the health gain per unit isn't enough to compensate for his base health.

To add to that, usually at the beginning late game point which is like 30 minutes, hyper scalers like Veigar and Nasus already have a good amount of their stacking, while sion with poor Wave clear efficiency usually has 200 or maybe 300 bonus health at that point.

My suggestions are:

Increase his base health and health per level Or Lower his mana costs Or Increase the health per unit to 5 per Small unit and 15 per larger units

17 Comments

Sneakyy XD4 votes

{quoted} 30 minutes while sion usually has 200 or maybe 300 bonus health at that point.

Having fewer than 150 minions at 30 minutes is a problem with you, not with Sion. A Nasus or Veigar in that position would be trash as well.

KrugLyfe3 votes

Yeah Malphite does sions job better and nukes squishies

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Malphite does sions job better and nukes squishies

this is largely the reason why Sion isn't picked, Malphite and Sion for the most part have basically the same ult, except one is easier to land, the big reason you pick sion is for you are suppose to have a mega tank who can land a long duration three man stun to then be chained into a second stun and whatever cc ur team has. Malphite simply does this far easier and more reliably.

KrugLyfe1 votes

If they upped sions scalings he'd see a lot more play.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

this is largely the reason why Sion isn't picked, Malphite and Sion for the most part have basically the same ult, except one is easier to land, the big reason you pick sion is for you are suppose to have a mega tank who can land a long duration three man stun to then be chained into a second stun and whatever cc ur team has. Malphite simply does this far easier and more reliably.

Not to mention Malphite is an armor tank, something that works extremely well against this AD centric meta.

67chrome3 votes

Sion's base health stats are pitiful for tank and the health gain per CS doesnt scale fast enough

Woah now, his 1784 HP and 74 armor are pretty solid. That's almost more than Sona's 1791 HP and 76.6 armor!

If Sion gets 199 CS and 10 kills vs. champions/large monsters he also breaks even with Darius 2282 HP.

Sure is a good thing Riot taxed Sion's bases to keep that infinite-scaling HP in check, who knows what we'd do if Sion's +HP scaling didn't barely break even at the end of an average ~33 minute game?

Not annoying at all his +HP scaling is extreemly missleading and indicative of negative stats. Not annoying it's technically a weakness rather than a strength despite being listed as bonus stats and displayed as a reward.

Not annoying at all.

Taxing base stats to offset the strengths in a kit is a super fun and not confusing use of game mechanics at all. -_-

Dark Nephthys3 votes

I do find it funny how Tryndamere has the highest base health at level 1 and the 2nd highest at level 18 (3rd If you count Mega Gnar) and yet Sion's isn't even that high compared to them. So I would be for him having increased base health or increasing his scaling hp a little more.

Also when you think about it, Sion's infinite stacking is probably the worst between the 3 right now. Veigar : Gets a lot of AP which works with all of his damaging abilities making him insane late game

Nasus : Gets 3 stacks which in the ends adds 3 damage to his Q...which is very high when he gets 40% CDR and he can use it against turrets...Which I still feel is stupid how he can keep it and yet everyone else is losing their abilities to Q turrets one by one..

Sion : Gets HP which can be easily countered by item 3153 or any % health damage ability (Which is a lot now), and unless he builds item 3748 with Grasp, he won't be doing a lot of damage during late game.

Tranquilis2 votes

I want to ask, how badly are you farming that you only have 300 HP by late game? I'm a Sion main and I average an easy 700-800 HP by late game.

KushDid4201 votes

{quoted}

I want to ask, how badly are you farming that you only have 300 HP by late game? I'm a Sion main and I average an easy 700-800 HP by late game.

I stated that my definition of "late game" starts at usually around 30 minutes. So it may be different for you.

But basing off what you said, you have around 300 cs by 30 minutes, without any other people such as your carries and jungler taking them. Usually at around 30 minutes people are team fighting and with this Marksman everywhere meta a tank is invaluable so people will usually need you. While you group, usually any Creeps you find are taken by your team because people usually assume a tank doesn't need it. So I would kind of doubt you farmed this well without being harassed and or gated by mana costs and your team taking some creeps.

However I may be completely wrong so please correct me

Tranquilis2 votes

{quoted}

I stated that my definition of "late game" starts at usually around 30 minutes. So it may be different for you.

But basing off what you said, you have around 300 cs by 30 minutes, without any other people such as your carries and jungler taking them. Usually at around 30 minutes people are team fighting and with this Marksman everywhere meta a tank is invaluable so people will usually need you. While you group, usually any Creeps you find are taken by your team because people usually assume a tank doesn't need it. So I would kind of doubt you farmed this well without being harassed and or gated by mana costs and your team taking some creeps.

However I may be completely wrong so please correct me

Sion's mana cost have rarely prohibited me from laning or jungling, and while yes, your health hits a brick wall once you start grouping, but the numbers that have been spit out for how much CS Sion needs to get that much health are greatly exaggerated, as they both Assume Sion is killing an abysmally small number of cannon creeps/Champions/jungle camps, or in your case, none at all.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

I stated that my definition of "late game" starts at usually around 30 minutes. So it may be different for you.

But basing off what you said, you have around 300 cs by 30 minutes, without any other people such as your carries and jungler taking them. Usually at around 30 minutes people are team fighting and with this Marksman everywhere meta a tank is invaluable so people will usually need you. While you group, usually any Creeps you find are taken by your team because people usually assume a tank doesn't need it. So I would kind of doubt you farmed this well without being harassed and or gated by mana costs and your team taking some creeps.

However I may be completely wrong so please correct me

Sion's mana costs are only restrictive early, and even then, not at all when you incorporate Doran's rings into the builld

Jbels1 votes

It doesn't really bother me that much since I build a lot of items with tank stats and health attached anyway. The extra 800-1000 health Late game is just gravy. Would be nice if I could actually pop my W in teamfights though

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Increase the health per unit to 5 per Small unit and 15 per larger units

Are you completely insane?

Currently, to reach numbers comparable to other tanks, you'd need about 10 CS/lvl (20 HP/lvl), as most tanks have HP growth factors between 80 and 100. However, each cannon minion and each kill or assist counts for 5 CS in this context.

With your numbers, he'd need 4 CS/lvl to be a regular tank. Everything on top would make him hilariously tanky, to levels that can only be described as broken.

Now, a reasonable buff, if he was to need one, would be to look at his level 1 HP and his base Armor, both of which are on the low side. 20 HP on level 1 and maybe .5 on the growth factor for armor, and he'd be set.

However, his performance data seem to indicate that he is not doing bad at all currently, maintaining a 52% winrate pretty constantly over the last few patches - albeit with a low pickrate. http://champion.gg/champion/Sion/Top

Sasogwa1 votes

I wholeheartedly agree to this, but... Tryndamere? Really? He's like, super non meta right now

Dar Raksada1 votes

{quoted}

I want to ask, how badly are you farming that you only have 300 HP by late game? I'm a Sion main and I average an easy 700-800 HP by late game.

I main Sion and try to clock 200hp per 10 minutes, I've gotten over 1k in 50 minutes games. Maybe it''s because I jungle him/ You get more hp in the jung.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

I usually have like 500 of that fancy health at that point. Thing is, at that point I'm having a rough time getting higher because my ADC claims every single union wave there is.... summoner 31

Olath Quortek1 votes

Sure his base health is pitiful but that's because it needs to be to make up for his stacking. I know Sion can stack better and faster than you imply and I plan on that when I play him. Averaging 100 health per 5 min is certainly not out of the realm of possibility either in lane or in the jungle. 800 to 1000 health end-game puts you easily at the highest "base" health of any champion with the added bonus of being considered bonus health for the purposes of Cinderhulk. He doesn't really need any buff in this area imo... other than maybe some more armor...

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