Give Zed and Fiora the "Kassadin Treatment"

KushDid420··32 votes·2,333 views

We all know the monster Kassadin used to be, but after consecutive balance and small reworks he became one of the most balanced champions today. It's hilarious too, because now Kassadin has a reason to be picked, a niche he fills, he's not picked anymore because he shits damage, well late game he does but still.

Zed and Fiora are picked because they shit damage and one can build bruiser without loss. Both are very safe and oppressive. I think they should be balanced over the course of a few patches instead of gutting them completely in one patch, just like kassadin. This will allow the community to communicate with the state of these champons and see if the need more changes.

30 Comments

TehNACHO21 votes

Kass is at a 45% winrate, which is pretty garbage for one of the most balanced champions today.

In terms of raw numbers, fiora is perfectly fine. 49.9% winrate is practically ideal. Zed needs a bit of tuning back as far as his winrate is concerned, but he too is an ideal 51-52% range

La Barbotte1 votes

Thats because hes a pick to counter heavy AP teams like galio is cause hes naturraly tanky for mages and he gets to their faces and fuck em up + he can cancel their channels, and we are in an AD meta so hes not usefull NOW, thats why winrate stats are biaised, rammus malphite and taric got up in winrates only because the meta is heavy AD, switch that to AP and kassie is back in the strong picks

TehNACHO12 votes

Oh really, he's only that low right now because we're in an ad meta right? Guess we've been in that meta since August 2014.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kassadin

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Oh really, he's only that low right now because we're in an ad meta right? Guess we've been in that meta since August 2014.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kassadin

They've also been forcing mobility, a meta he doesn't excel as well in because everyone is a little closer to his strengths. That's been going on for a LONG time. Also, his early laning is difficult, so its not hard to see why a lot of people would perform poorly on him.

Jhin UItd JFK2 votes

{quoted}

They've also been forcing mobility

um you do realize his ult is a spammable blink right?

Kassadin isn't good because riot over nerfed him and left him to stagnate over the years. His laning phase is horrible pre-6, it feels like a huge job just to get to your level 6 powerspike which is near impossible because the mid meta are full of champions that can bully Kass to the point where he gets very far behind. He has poor waveclear, his scalings are mediocre for a "late game carry" and it's virtually impossible to carry as him unless your mid laner let you go 10/0 by 12 minutes.

Giving the "Kassadin" treatment to champions essentially means you're just gonna gut them.

RavenMagus4 votes

{quoted}

um you do realize his ult is a spammable blink right?

That's actually entirely his point, though.

What he means is that today's items (like the trio of Dead Man's Plate, Runic Echoes, and Swiftie Boots you see on every Jungle Sonic ever) is making everyone so fast that a spammable blink doesn't matter that much because everyone can run as fast as Kassadin can teleport anyways.

TehNACHO2 votes

Just gonna offer a different perspective here.

Doesn't that mean Riot's enforcing an immobile meta? I mean, think of the champions that most abuse Flat Movement speed bonuses: champions with lower end base movement speed. Or, consider that the champion most abusing Runic Echoes right now is Udyr, a champion with zero built in dashes (unless you count the bear stance mini leap). If a champion that should almost be the definition of mobility is getting overrun because the baseline mobility of other champions are rising, doesn't that literally mean that, at least in terms of champions, we're tending towards a more immobile meta?

RavenMagus1 votes

Yes, I do actually agree with that.

Just look at Udyr, who has an insane 57.5% winrate, the highest in the leauge (according to champion.gg). Udyr is literally nothing but a big bundle of stats: huge tankiness, huge damage, a stun on his autoattack. He doesn't actually do anything but run around and try to hit things in the face.

When you face Udyr, you have two choices: Kite him and run away, or face a stat check. if your stats are lower than Udyr's, you lose the stat check and need to kite him and run away or die. However, since the movespeed items are so extremely good, you no longer have the option of kiting him unless your champion is exceptionally good at it: he will run faster than you, and even if slowed, immobilized or stunned briefly he'll always catch up and force the stat check - which is one that he will almost always win, because he has nothing else but stats.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

um you do realize his ult is a spammable blink right?

Kassadin isn't good because riot over nerfed him and left him to stagnate over the years. His laning phase is horrible pre-6, it feels like a huge job just to get to your level 6 powerspike which is near impossible because the mid meta are full of champions that can bully Kass to the point where he gets very far behind. He has poor waveclear, his scalings are mediocre for a "late game carry" and it's virtually impossible to carry as him unless your mid laner let you go 10/0 by 12 minutes.

Giving the "Kassadin" treatment to champions essentially means you're just gonna gut them.

Yes, his ult is a spammable blink, but his pick potential is far, far greater when more champions are immobile, or at least lack escapes.

His laning phase is horrible, but given his strengths, it needs to be.

The real problem is how fast the meta is. The game is usually over by the time Kassadin starts to pick up speed.

Btw, his scalings are actually extremely good. Its the base damages that are mediocre.

La Barbotte1 votes

well we went from tank meta to ad meta so yeah he was both in a shitty spot and before that he was in a weaker state hes been buffed since

Rundus11 votes

I found him delightful in tank meta, as most of the tanks I ran into (graggy, sej, mundo, rammus, etc) did a whole lot of magic damage. I took Kass into ranked in tank meta any time the enemy had 3-4 AP and won every time in the top lane. I only ever had trouble with Rumble pre-6. Everyone else was pretty clear-cut unable to kill me without a good gank and I poked them to death or killed them post 6. Tank meta was great... I miss it.

KushDid4205 votes

I personally don't think that win rates necessarily indicate the health of a champion, even Riot has stated they usually don't balance around win rate. But I agree 50% is usually ideal, however my problem is that they are overloaded with damage while being too safe.

A bruiser Fiora can take a beating and deny any CC the opposing team throws when she dives your back line. She then proceeds to murder your team and gains a massive AOE heal. If a fiora is in trouble she has a dash ability that can help her escape.

Zed, who can't build bruiser because his kit demands ad, has a very oppressive laning phase. Thunderlords burst with manaless harass longer than azir is just very unfair. Also, he has an instant fuck you button once he reaches 6, he can towerdive you and disapear from a mile away.

It's just the safety of these champions that ruin the fun and challenge. I don't really see any couterplay other than just Zhonyas it and try to throw CC at Fiora when riposte is down.

I also meant by Kass as the most balanced champ by the fact that He has clear weaknesses and has his own strengths while offering tons of counterplay.

Rendarkan1 votes

See the problem is you can't punish a champion for doing what they are meant to do.

Darius Fiora MasterYi Yasuo Zed can all die very quickly and very easily. What people don't realize is these champions are specifically designed TO KILL OTHER CHAMPIONS.

You simply can't punish a champion just because he is kicking your teeth in. Honestly Zed is in a fine spot to me he is doing what he was designed to do and that is to make your life miserable and kill you as fast as physically possible. This isn't some children's game where no one dies and we all live happily. It's PvP. The other players intent is to solely make your game experience a living hell. I believe I posted something like this in a separate thread so I'll post it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itVTcUztFMU

This entire video sums up everything about gameplay. And yes. This is exactly where I got my opening bit from because it applies to champions solely designed to murder you.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Zed just needs a nerf where his passive no longer works on minion

Both of them are perfectly fine everywhere else.

Nahui14 votes

LOL ZED AS A BRUISER FUNNY FUNNY.

No but really, Zed and Fiora aren't half the monster Kassadin was. They don't have a tenth of the mobility Kassadin did. Kassadin was a permaban for about 3-4 seasons. This is one of the first periods that Zed has been a consistent ban besides S3 high damage deathmark Zed and only because of the new item. Zed is champion ridden with counter itemization and counter picks and so long as champs like Tahm Kench, CC supports, Malzahar, and QSS and Zhonya's exist, Zed won't see big nerfs. He's only being nerfed now due to the new item, not because his kit was broken.

Fiora, who knows. Her Bruiser build right now might lead to base stat nerfs, or just nerfs of the bruiser items that give great offensive and defensive stats. But, neither will get the Kassadin treatment. Neither come close to what Kassadin brought the the rift back then.

Astôlfo10 votes

Except Kassadin is literal garbage and has been neutered to death. That's not how you're supposed to balance a champion.

KushDid4201 votes

Agreed, Kassadin did get nerfed to garbage in 5.4 (almost 1 year ago) and it was an undeserved nerf because he was already balanced. But remember that 5.4 was just a shitty patch in general and Riot just fucked up a lot of things, and it's looking that way again right now.

Back to Kassadin though, he did get some compensation buffs but he's not necessarily garbage right now. In the meta? Maybe because of the ad comps we see these days, but is he healthy? Yes. Remember that Kassadin is a niche pick, kinda like old morde (RIP). He does his job well and has enough weaknesses which his obscene late game makes up for.

Unggoy9512 votes

I agree for fiora so frustrating... Pick nearly every game and just run into you and kill you. Even if she is behind so yeah she need a nerf Fiora Zed has too much burst with item 3142 and the new items

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Fiora is fine atm tho

And zed just needs a nerf where passive no longer affects minions would hurt his farming everything else he's fine in, just harass and punish him for using W offensively.

KarKzz1 votes

The problem is the "bruiser build". It's builded on every AD thing.

item 3071 item 3156 item 3142 item 3053 item 3742

Fuck that build.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

idk why fiora would take youmuu over either hydra, shouldn't be losing to such a fiora no sustain vs your harass

Rendarkan1 votes

That build is such an abomination for Fiora... The only decent item is Deadman's and thats for chasing. You obviously are a scrub to die to that build in my eyes.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

? Why am I getting called a scrub for pointing out she needs a hydra item.

Rendarkan1 votes

I call everyone one its nothing meaningful.

Even my dog gets called a scrub.

Just my thing.

Destiny habit.

KarKzz1 votes

I was being generalist, but yeah fiora would take an hydra instead.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Fiora is pretty balanced atm she can be punished for trying to harass you with Q, as soon as she counters for the next 10 seconds you have even more time to punish her.

She's basically a champ where if you can't find moments to punish she'll get "free trade" until she's able to kill you. It's better to just play safe and freeze lane as much as possible if you don't feel confident vs her.

FortisDominus1 votes

what you mean rift walk to rift limp?

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

A main reason Fiora doesnt need to be gutted is due to the fact shes entirely single tatget damage, she has no AOE ability.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Fiora is perfectly fine though

Zed just needs a nerf where his passive no longer works on minions

Everything else they're both fine

Rendarkan1 votes

"Kassadin" "Balanced"

Pick one.

Kassadin didn't even need any nerfs and such. It was bad enough they gutted everything that made him fun to play like his silence and 50% mana refund. The worst thing they did was turn his rift walk to a crippled mess THEN increased its mana cost from 40 to 50 and made it double without helping its damage. Kassadin is a ghost of what made him great and I am glad I got to play him before Riot murdered the Champion Formerly known as Kassawin.

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