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Aside from Vaynes PBE buffs, the marksmen buffs are great! But they dont hit the right nail.

Paroe··13 votes·4,965 views

Marksmen feel bad, but they are without a doubt very very good at all stages of the game with a handful of exceptions who are generally kept in the gutter. The big question is; Why? And the small answer; Marksmen require four items to hit their stride and are uncomfortable at three or two due to marksmen itemization being mostly ASP/Crit/MS.

At the best of times a class of champions who require more than 3 'core' items and whom do not hit tangible power spikes with each item are clunky and feel bad, which leads to the fix. _ Reduce the marksman itemization 'core' to three items_. To do this, we need a source of crit chance on an AD item. item 3095 is a fine choice; item 3095 (2800g) = item 1038 + item 3086 +200g. 40AD, 20% crit chance, 25% attack speed, and a reworked passive; critical strikes increase your movement speed by 20% for 0.5 seconds.

With this, the marksmen core items become item 3095 , item 3087 (any zeal item) , and item 3031. This gives a stable 100% crit chance at the late-early game or mid-mid game which, combined with movement speed procs on crit, will dramatically increase the classes feel without bringing them over the edge.

28 Comments

BLIGHTBRINGER5 votes

Meanwhile, my champ Varus who's at 46% Win-Rate (the lowest in the entire bot lane again) doesn't get any changes, even if it's to nerf something and buff something else in return (as in shift power elsewhere).

saltran4 votes

He is even worse than Kalista, that's kinda impressive.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c2GnEAEe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-12-10T10:37:58.517+0000)

Meanwhile, my champ Varus who's at 46% Win-Rate (the lowest in the entire bot lane again) doesn't get any changes, even if it's to nerf something and buff something else in return (as in shift power elsewhere).

Varus is on the onhit/caster spectrum, but the proposed change would benefit him to if he decided to build crit.

Try starting wits end with onhit marksmen, i find its really effective. More so than BotRK.

Karn Bishop1 votes

Varus falls into the same category as nasus and needs time to apply his damage and in a game where the design philosophy is now delete or get deleted you understandably are pure gutter trash as a champion.

I see nasus as one of the health metrics for the game when he is winning too much something is wrong and when he is losing too much again SOMETHING IS WRONG.

saltran5 votes

Crit changes will come on 9.1 or 9.2 and the Gameplay Boards reaction will be priceless because no matter what are the real changes they will react like if it's gonna be a massive buff, like 8.11 was a buff because they would get 100% crit with 3 items lul

OtterlyLost4 votes

I had almost forgotten that everyone and their mother whined about ADCs getting "buffed" for 8.11 while ignoring all of the nerfs to their base stats and runes and the fact that new IE was hot garbage

Blåbæret4 votes

ADCs should never be buffed. They've been warping the game for years. Just gut the class and do a full individual rework of each ADC. Proceed to remove crit from the game.

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

ADCs should never be buffed. They've been warping the game for years. Just gut the class and do a full individual rework of each ADC. Proceed to remove crit from the game.

While i agree crit should be removed, people like playing CoD to much for it to ever be removed. IMO replacing crit 1:1 with AD and increasing daggers from 12 to 15% (without changing the cost from 300g) would be more than enough to keep marksmen doing what they do best; 400AD, 1.8ASP objective taking and sustained damage monsters.

Keep this in mind; what i suggest is not a buff, but a reallocation of power to bring marksmen from the mid-late to the mid-early stage of the game with non-overbearing power spikes in their core itemization. Much like how bruisers go for titanic hydra/black cleaver/trinity force; their core items have a large impact on their ability to do what they want to do. By comparison, marksmen core items dont have a large impact on what they want to do which makes the class feel much weaker than it actually is.

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

While i agree crit should be removed, people like playing CoD to much for it to ever be removed. IMO replacing crit 1:1 with AD and increasing daggers from 12 to 15% (without changing the cost from 300g) would be more than enough to keep marksmen doing what they do best; 400AD, 1.8ASP objective taking and sustained damage monsters.

Keep this in mind; what i suggest is not a buff, but a reallocation of power to bring marksmen from the mid-late to the mid-early stage of the game with non-overbearing power spikes in their core itemization. Much like how bruisers go for titanic hydra/black cleaver/trinity force; their core items have a large impact on their ability to do what they want to do. By comparison, marksmen core items dont have a large impact on what they want to do which makes the class feel much weaker than it actually is.

I think Crits should be kit reliant, and demand skillful use of a champion's kit. AKA "do X and ability will do bonus damage" kind of crits. Nothing on autoattacks unless the current kit has a mechanic for it. An example would be Caitlyn's Headshots, Vayne's Silver Arrows, or Sivir getting bonus damage on an attack after a good spellshield. Some could have that for attacking CC'd enemies i suppose. Damage ratios would require individual balance though.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I think Crits should be kit reliant, and demand skillful use of a champion's kit. AKA "do X and ability will do bonus damage" kind of crits. Nothing on autoattacks unless the current kit has a mechanic for it. An example would be Caitlyn's Headshots, Vayne's Silver Arrows, or Sivir getting bonus damage on an attack after a good spellshield. Some could have that for attacking CC'd enemies i suppose. Damage ratios would require individual balance though.

You want the defining trait of marksmen to be 'augmented basic attacks'? A sentiment i can get behind, but to realize that would require an actual overhaul of the class as well as riot firmly defining the three classes of marksmen (of which are Onhit, Crit, and Caster). Making marksmen feel better at the moment and keeping their early power low enough that they dont dominate the game at all stages is the important thing right now. The better the problem is solved without simply adding "MOAR POWAH" to marksmen, the better for game health.

Reallocation of power > Raw buffs

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

You want the defining trait of marksmen to be 'augmented basic attacks'? A sentiment i can get behind, but to realize that would require an actual overhaul of the class as well as riot firmly defining the three classes of marksmen (of which are Onhit, Crit, and Caster). Making marksmen feel better at the moment and keeping their early power low enough that they dont dominate the game at all stages is the important thing right now. The better the problem is solved without simply adding "MOAR POWAH" to marksmen, the better for game health.

Reallocation of power > Raw buffs

That's indeed what i want. I prefer long term solutions that take some time to band-aid solutions (even though they're necessary), just like how i'd look for systemic and sweeping balance changes to give the support crew the ability to solo-lane decently without making the lanes they're in utter cancer, and augmenting the combat power they have access to as supports.

But yeah. Every ADC has a gimmick that represents specifically how they can deal extra damage, bar a few handful like Jinx. I say pump a "Crit" damage stat into those gimmicks that are individually balanced and that some items can enhance reasonably. Because of how it's set up, it would mean ANY champion could then have access to this kind of damage more reasonably, from Tryndamere and Yasuo to Anivia and Karthus.

It creates room for counterplay, justifies moments of burst that can be celebrated as good plays, and otherwise sends the Marksmen somewhat back into the DPS paradigm rather than being primarily burst.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

ADCs should never be buffed. They've been warping the game for years. Just gut the class and do a full individual rework of each ADC. Proceed to remove crit from the game.

Yes, crit should be removed, but ADCs don't deserve to get removed in the process.

saltran1 votes

Thank you white knight for standing up to defend the adcs honor

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Thank you white knight for standing up to defend the adcs honor

https://i.imgur.com/2xNusqx.jpg/img

M'lady

saltran3 votes

Hold up Mordekaiser, Fiddle, Pantheon and Shaco mains, the Gameplay Boards wants to rework all adcs first.

Dracocrash3 votes

I think the problem lies with infinity edge. It just straight up sucks and has poor synergy with lord dominicks regard.

Theres no way to build IE second item atm, which delays a lot of adc's spikes. The only way to build IE second is to rush a zeal item first. Rushing a non-ad item is not really possible without asking to insta lose lane.

With your suggested stormrazor changes, IE can be built as second item again, and will give crit adc's the spike they need earlier on in the game.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I think the problem lies with infinity edge. It just straight up sucks and has poor synergy with lord dominicks regard.

Theres no way to build IE second item atm, which delays a lot of adc's spikes. The only way to build IE second is to rush a zeal item first. Rushing a non-ad item is not really possible without asking to insta lose lane.

With your suggested stormrazor changes, IE can be built as second item again, and will give crit adc's the spike they need earlier on in the game.

Marksmen should not, EVER, reach lategame at 2 items. Thats what we had before, and the marksmen itemization nerfs were beyond warranted; marksmen itemization is still the single most efficient class of items in the game. Also, the current IE deals similar damage to the old IE. It simply feels less impactful because you dont generally see the bonus true damage, so you dont feel the "WOW THATS ALOTTA DAMAGE" thing.

For the most part marksmen are in a good place, once their core gets reduced to three instead of four items they WILL feel much better to play... ... And the 50% crit power spike is also nothing to scoff at, especially when you get your second BF sword.

Giving marksmen the room to build their core, boots, then two situational items without giving up a needed item will be a good thing. Marksmen will be able to build BT, MS (merc. scimitar), last whisper, botrk + GA, which will add on a great deal to their game-feel by allowing them to feel flexible again without breaking them.

Dracocrash1 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen should not, EVER, reach lategame at 2 items. Thats what we had before, and the marksmen itemization nerfs were beyond warranted; marksmen itemization is still the single most efficient class of items in the game. Also, the current IE deals similar damage to the old IE. It simply feels less impactful because you dont generally see the bonus true damage, so you dont feel the "WOW THATS ALOTTA DAMAGE" thing.

For the most part marksmen are in a good place, once their core gets reduced to three instead of four items they WILL feel much better to play... ... And the 50% crit power spike is also nothing to scoff at, especially when you get your second BF sword.

Giving marksmen the room to build their core, boots, then two situational items without giving up a needed item will be a good thing. Marksmen will be able to build BT, MS (merc. scimitar), last whisper, botrk + GA, which will add on a great deal to their game-feel by allowing them to feel flexible again without breaking them.

getting 60% crit with 70 bonus ad isn't really late game, its just a decent power spike. Late game would be getting 100% crit while having 20% life steal and GA.

Death by Glamour3 votes

riot - damage is too high

also riot - lets just add more and more damage into the game

vgamedude2 votes

ADCs have literally been dominating this game for years. Proof is in the numbers, you can easily see they are the only required type in the entire game for years on end, and one single patch that saw some actual diversity bot (not even crazy over 70 percent of what was picked down there or around that figure was still marksmen) it got reverted the very next patch.

Marksmen should NOT BE BUFFED by nature of being required every single game you can see how good they are. Mid lane you have all sorts of viable choices, mage, assassin, marksmen, even tank. Top is no different and neither is jungle or support. The only role that has this stagnation is, surprise, the role that is the most important in the game and the center. The "carry".

The fact that marksmen are ALWAYS the "carry" of the team tells you all you need to know about how "bad" marksmen are. They have been ruining and destroying any variety or meaningful diversity in this game for years and it's so tiresome to see riot turn their back on their promise to change that.

Xavanic2 votes

their buffing the most overloaded class in the game? ffs.....

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Ah yes, Sivir, the most overloaded champion in the game. Passive: I move faster when I hit things, nice. Q: I throw a boomerang that deals damage. W: My auto attacks bounce a couple times. E: I block a single spell on me, and gain mana if it works. R: We get a little movement speed for a few seconds. Oh, and I guess I can attack faster when using W now.

Meanwhile Irelia... Passive: If I land an ability at least once on a non-champion, or for every champion I hit I deal more damage on my auto attacks, and if i do it four times I get to attack faster and also deal extra damage to shields. Q: I dash to the target unit, damaging them and applying on-hit effects, and also healing myself. Also, if I kill them, or if they recently got damaged by my E or R I can use it again right away. W: I gain damage reduction for a moment, or I can cancel it early to deal damage to everyone around me and in a line in front of me. E: I throw a sword and then throw another sword, then they come together and damage and stun everyone in the area, in addition to marking them for my Q. R: I shoot a huge diamond shape of blade in a direction, that expands once it hits a champion and marks everyone in the area and damages them, and also knocks them back. Then if anyone tries to leave through the shape, they get damaged, slowed, and disarmed.

OtterlyLost2 votes

The Vayne buff is just going to break her. The Tristana buff is garbage, just flat out. I'm still waiting on those crit item reworks because they keep pumping more power into Trist's E, even though that wont help her. And when they finally do address what's wrong with her, she'll need some of the power in her E pulled put again (which they also wont do; they'll nerf some other, more important part of her kit, then they'll nerf her items again, and then she'll be trash again until they decide to buff her E even more. Classic Tristana buff/nerf cycle right there)

As for your suggested rework on Storm Razor, I'd prefer them to take the MS off all together. The MS is what's keeping Jhin as one of the top tier ADCs. I'd rather they took away the MS, reduce or remove the guaranteed crit, made it so that each consecutive Crit has a ramping power. This benefits the DPS style play that marksmen are looking for without straight buffing Jhin(who already has a fairly varied build path with options to go to when crit isnt best for him). Also just turn ER back into a Crit item, goddammit.

boricCentaur11 votes

I hate how the items feel for adcs like xay before the adc changes and after just feels so bad to play and I hate that riot is not addressed the issue.

JoeMG1 votes

Honestly, I feel like ADCs are finally in a good place in terms of power throughout the game. I wish more effort was put towards nerfing the pick or ban champs and the champs that bully ADCs early game.

Mc Raton1 votes

Ashe change is a joke... they removed focus stack on Volley and only kept the assist on owl.. meanwhile every other adc get damage buffed... such bias..

Paroe1 votes

Bump!

Paroe1 votes

MOAR!

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