Lets talk about ADCs

DeusVult·Mar 3, 2018·11 votes·1,548 views

ADCs have been a major talking point (or circlejerk) for the better part of the last year, from the "ADCin2017" memes to the rise of the Ardent Sensor meta to the current time when they continue to dominate most levels of play with huge scaling damage and low cost itemization.

But what makes ADCs strong? Is it their access to crits multiplicative damage scaling, low cost itemization and reliance on items rather than levels or spell power, or safety due to supports modernization, both in terms of kits and itemization. All of the above?

What it the reason to play the ADC class? High, consistent DPS to enemy champs? Objectives? Safety due to range?

Most hate posts against our current ADC overlords will talk about how easy it is for them to kill you, simply by "right clicking." To say it is that easy is hyperbole, yet when it is true cough + cough it shows the need for change. ADCs main defensive tool is their range and positioning, to say that a good ADC killed you simply by right clicking you isn't accurate. Its not as easy as its detractors would make it seem.

What would the playerbase say that the ADC class should be good and weak at?? What needs to be changed about how they are currently?

49 Comments

ChaddyFantomeMar 3, 201811 votes

They do too much damage too quickly for a class that is supposed to be DPS oriented. Especially when said DPS has no resource and is ranged.

Adcs that do powerful autos should have less DPS, and ADCs with high DPS should have lower damage per auto relative to now.

While they should obviously want some of both, they shouldnt get the best of both worlds and then some like they currently do.

Statik Shiv is actually a better bust item than item 3147 in turms of burst damage. From their respective procs.

undesirable teamMar 3, 20189 votes

need to change lane sustain and item 3087 item 3094 item 3031 and shield items

AirKingNeoMar 4, 20182 votes

Rapid Firecannon and IE don't need any changes.

FCJAAAAGOOOOMar 4, 20184 votes

All three need changes for marksmen, or marksmen themselves need to be changed.

And by changed I mean take a serious nerf. Of course.

Elkington VIMar 4, 20188 votes

Adcs by themselves aren't very strong at all. Generally, they're very dependent on their team in order to succeed, largely due to the simplicity of their kits and build-pathing.

It's more that Riot bends over backwards to make sure that adcs remain relevent to team comps, because without that intervention most of them wouldn't have a place apart from sieging. Without support intervention, adcs wouldn't be half as strong as they are. Nerf supports and their itemization and adc power drops significantly.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 4, 20183 votes

https://i.imgflip.com/1qns65.jpg

DeusVultMar 4, 20184 votes

Yes, a ton of "hidden power" of ADCs is in how strong support itemization is.

That said ADCs should always imo be the best at taking objectives: towers+drag/barons. That and consistent DPS should be their niche.

Their current ability to dip heavily into the "burst" niche of mages and assassins needs to go, no ADC should be an assassin. The two concepts of "burst" and "DPS" should be oil and water unless their access to burst is heavily gated by its usability. (such as Jynx rocket execute)

ModWulf HelhammerMar 4, 20183 votes

It's not that they burst.

If you have something that is designed to build enough damage to kill tanky targets, what happens if you then start using that on targets that have no durability whatsoever?

LordGeovanniMar 4, 20182 votes

Crit in no game ever is designed for tanky targets. Crit is something so that you can quickly delete people who have low hp pools and no defense but it usually is counter balanced by not a high proc rate in high dps characters (adcs and fighters if crit never amounted to more than 20% crit chance) or a medium proc rate in low dps characters with long down times (assassins if crit never amounted to more than 55% crit chance) Just because riot may say that its designed for tanks (though ive never seen them say that only adc mains say that) doesnt mean they are right as they did not come up with the concept of crit that is a borrowed concept from other games.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 4, 20181 votes

I didn't say crit was designed for tanks, I said ADCs were designed to take down tanky targets.

And in MMOs, crit is something all classes build in order to increase DPS. It has nothing to do with burst.

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20181 votes

That too Adcs are not designed to take down tanky targets if they were vayne wouldnt have a neiche. Adcs are designed to provide constant ranged damage. and because it has no cooldown it can be easily focused on anyone who neededs to be finished off after they take burst from mages or if you have an assassin instead of a mage they deal damage to get targets low until assassins can go in and finish them off. That would be the dynamic if any of those classes were healthy. another thing would be to provide constant ranged dps while fighters provide constant melee dps

MYXYNMar 4, 20181 votes

I think that some adc's do need to keep their bursty and assassin like playstyle. Champions like Jhin , Vayne , and even the new kai'sa have those elements and should probably keep them. However I do agree that other adc's shouldn't be bursting enemies down.

LordGeovanniMar 5, 20181 votes

I only agree with That for Jhin and Only if Jhins constancy goes down and he has a fixed attack speed like he was advertised to have. not a consistant scaling attack speed that is just as fast as any other adc with 1 attack speed item by mid- late game. Vayne should not keep burst if she is gonna keep that over 5% max hp true damage proc with base true damage on top of it. Kai sa already looks toxic with her auto target damage q and other generic attack speed buff that and she goes invisible like vayne who is been a highly complained about champion for years just because of the same thing. Riot Design team are hypocrits they took all the Aura items away for being generic ever present stats checks but adcs have Generic Stat check press to activate spells (and passives on some of them) Draven Jinx Sivir MissFortune Quinn Kai Sa Varus KogMaw . Its done well on Ashe but its still bad because its combined with her passive if it was on a champion without a perma slow (and a 3 second stun) that would be pretty decent and fair to play against

Critmaster GarenMar 4, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Elkington VI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c0FnIgYd,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-03-04T00:56:38.445+0000)

Adcs by themselves aren't very strong at all. Generally, they're very dependent on their team in order to succeed, largely due to the simplicity of their kits and build-pathing.

he said, before twitch popped out of stealth and 3 shot half of the enemy team with stattic+rapid fire+i.e. and ult, as the teams jungler.

saying that adc themselves arent very strong and their strength is tied to strong supports is as much generalization and hyperbole as saying that they all can 1v5 by right clicking the enemy team.

there are enough adc who are incredibly self sufficient and effective without even taking support protection into account. Tristana is probably one of the most noticable examples with the combined hypermobility and reliable self peel that her kit provides.

on the other hand, Varus is another currently pretty bonkers meta marksman who relies a lot more on support, before he gets going with his clearly overtuned passive and starts shredding melee champions in his face without kiting them.

honestly, varus always had a clear niche as a long range mid lane ad caster who only was kindof secondary a marksman. i never understood why they changed his passive to get the ability to hyper carry on top of it aswell. his mains cried that his passive was useless as an attack steroid. well, no shit. the point of your champion is to be a long range, burst oriented poke monster whos a mediocre marksman and not kog maw level carry at the same time.

KaìjuMar 4, 20183 votes

They changed him from a caster because he held the same problems as older Nidalee and Zoe. It isn't fun to get nuked from across your screen by one skillshot. You won't be able to dodge everything and when it lands it lands like a truck. Thus just means that players that are better at landing it are over rewarded, just like players who know how to position are over rewarded on Tristana for her jump reset.

Critmaster GarenMar 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

They changed him from a caster because he held the same problems as older Nidalee and Zoe. It isn't fun to get nuked from across your screen by one skillshot. You won't be able to dodge everything and when it lands it lands like a truck. Thus just means that players that are better at landing it are over rewarded, just like players who know how to position are over rewarded on Tristana for her jump reset.

then they should have shifted power from his q into his w procs instead. maybe by letting him apply one more stack or maybe two.

this would have incentivised him to take risks and walk close to his opponent to apply those stacks, then pull back and proc them with his spells.

he was a very unique marksman already in a way how he was more of a caster than a hyper carry. by overbuffing his passive, they basically turned him into another jinx. he gets one assist in a fight, his passive procs and he starts shredding bruisers in melee range.

KaìjuMar 4, 20181 votes

Oh well.

Elkington VIMar 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=c0FnIgYd,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2018-03-04T04:05:07.454+0000)

he said, before twitch popped out of stealth and 3 shot half of the enemy team with stattic+rapid fire+i.e. and ult, as the teams jungler.

saying that adc themselves arent very strong and their strength is tied to strong supports is as much generalization and hyperbole as saying that they all can 1v5 by right clicking the enemy team.

there are enough adc who are incredibly self sufficient and effective without even taking support protection into account. is probably one of the most noticable examples with the combined hypermobility and reliable self peel that her kit provides.

on the other hand, is another currently pretty bonkers meta marksman who relies a lot more on support, before he gets going with his clearly overtuned passive and starts shredding melee champions in his face without kiting them.

honestly, varus always had a clear niche as a long range mid lane ad caster who only was kindof secondary a marksman. i never understood why they changed his passive to get the ability to hyper carry on top of it aswell. his mains cried that his passive was useless as an attack steroid. well, no shit. the point of your champion is to be a long range, burst oriented poke monster whos a mediocre marksman and not kog maw level carry at the same time.

How often does that happen though? Even an Ashe can wreck face under the right conditions. 9 times out of ten that Twitch is melting faces because he had someone babysitting him until he reached critical mass.

Vayne and Ezreal have consistently been the most self-sufficient adcs across all seasons (and maps) and have always been balance problems as a result.

Adcs are perma-relevent on SR due to the layout of the map, but only get out of hand whenever Riot directly buffs them and/or supports-tanks.

The DreamwalkerMar 4, 20181 votes

The voice of reason, right here.

BlåbæretMar 4, 20186 votes

They need to have ramp-up damage and no burst. What is the point of playing mage when you can just go ADC and deal twice the damage without having to hit skillshots while still having insane waveclear?

DeusVultMar 4, 20181 votes

Agreed

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/B9FqvAs1-crit-overhaul

AirKingNeoMar 4, 20182 votes

They need to have ramp-up damage

LUCIAN DRAVEN CORKI

kaironenMar 4, 20184 votes

item 3087 and item 3094 combo is op atm. It makes adcs that abuse this stronger than they should (like tristana). Adcs that go onhit abuse item 3124 since it is op on ranged champs with onhit effects.

DeusVultMar 4, 20182 votes

IMO item 3094 is fine, but item 3087 is incredibly good for only a 2600g cost. There is no downside to it since it brings waveclear and single target damage that is amplified by crit, and using it in conjunction with RFC just brings it up more.

If Stattiks was nerfed RFC would be fine in its current form.

The DreamwalkerMar 4, 20181 votes

Don't forget that those two items combined are allowed to damage turrets.

kaironenMar 4, 20181 votes

rapidfire cannon alone is fine, shiv alone is slightly too strong due to it's champion damage (it should be the main waveclear crit/atk spd item) but both together after riot made the combo strong although less effective than it's previous version made that combo op. Since tristana is one of it's best users due to her aa range, it makes champs like her stronger than intended.

NipsahoyMar 4, 20184 votes

This feels like a bunch of bronze and silvers talking to be quite frank. People completely exaggerating saying that Twitch can 1v5 at like 9 or some BS like that. Maybe if your team just stands there AFK and people don't know how to use any of their abilities that's true. I think most of the complaints come from people when the enemy AD gets super fed early which is a team issue. Marksmen are very feast or famine you have to look at both sides of the coin. If you get shutdown early on then you do almost no damage to tanks and are super squishy. They aren't going to nerf them into oblivion or remove crit or any of these other completely asinine things people are suggesting.

KyazaMar 3, 20183 votes

I think the issue is simply that there are so many diffrent items an adc could build that it becomes almost impossible to deal with. for instance they have item 3153 item 3091 item 3036 heck even item 3115 all these items make it impossible to counter the adc because there is just so many different damage types they are outputting

DeusVultMar 4, 20182 votes

Only on-hit ADCs such as Kog or Varus are going to go those items due to their existing on hit damage mechanics and how they have existing hybrid damage in their kits.

But the real problem of ADCs getting different damage types so they can't be itemized against is how easily they can pick up item 3087 for 2600g, which lets them deal an additional 60-160 magic damage when it procs. 120-320 magic damage if it crits. (150-400 if it crits with IE...)

AirKingNeoMar 4, 20182 votes

ADCS BUILD NASHORS? WHERE?

IainG10Mar 5, 20181 votes

Very niche, but botlane Teemo , Kayle and KogMaw ; then again, they aren't really ADCs so much as hybrid dps carries... I guess Varus could build it as well if you wanted to abuse his w passive....

AirKingNeoMar 5, 20182 votes

Kayle and Teemo aren't bot laners.

IainG10Mar 5, 20181 votes

They aren't meta bot laners, but it can still be done; Riot hasn't locked champs to lanes yet

AirKingNeoMar 5, 20181 votes

You're confusing the word meta with the term "played in that role".

no to toxicMar 5, 20181 votes

Kog`Maw never builds it and 2 of your examples aren´t adcs and Varus never gets it outside of his ap build.

no to toxicMar 5, 20181 votes

use 3 items wich are only build by 2 adc and one nnot even being build by adcs to highlight the problem with adcs [zombie-brand-clap] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-mindblown] [sg-janna] [sg-lux-2] [sg-zephyr]

vgamedudeMar 4, 20182 votes

Objective taking. Ramp up damage.

They shouldn't be the end all for team fighting, objectives and literally everything. Especially not when their form of damage is the EASIEST, most sustainable and reliable. Also they easily get life steal as well where mages and others generally get none. Far less than adcs even when they do.

no to toxicMar 4, 20182 votes

Listening to the boards complain about adcs is not something anybody should do who doesn´t like jerkin with strangers on the internet. The only reason adc seems so strong right now is due to 2 things. 1.The ad on infinity edge got increased and the costof it got decreased making it too good 2. Supports got good items now instead of shitty auras wich give the team 25 magic resist The issue can easily be fixed by increasing the cost of IE or nerfing its ad. Also if any assasin complain about not being to assasinate the adc remember to look at their match history to see the stats as they are usally them being in late game(where assasins suck) jumping on a adc who got his support near him.

IainG10Mar 5, 20181 votes

When I started playing Jinx had just been released; supports were reliant on GP5 runes rather than items, and there were only really 2 active items for them (the old versions of item 3190 & item 3222 ). With the exception of some numbers tweaks and the changes to item 3086 and its' children, ADC hasn't changed much; supports on the other hand actually have their own items, and build variety, and ways of working beyond what's built into their kits. This person is right; it's not the ADCs that have changed, it's everything around them

woodvsmurphMar 4, 20181 votes

You look at seasons past where they were in a good spot and see:

burst mages and assassins can delete adc's when they properly land their combos - unless the adc has ga or an mr item besides boots

adc's needed armor pen to do meaningful damage to opponents with even just a single armor item

adc's couldn't DREAM about fighting a bruiser or fighter 1v1 unless they were way ahead of said melee champ

teams could win without needing their adc to be the primary - much less almost the ONLY - damage source

two champs with bruiser-esq damage could dive an adc through decent levels of enemy cc and pop them - something like vi plus renekton for example - without having to commit to full damage builds to do so; now you're lucky if you can do this with full damage build

adc's should not, nor were they intended to be, the exclusive source of dps to kill opponents; bruisers, fighters, and mids with spammable abilities are intended to provide meaningful dps in teamfights - the former while being tanky, the latter two not so tanky but coordinating with the engage of their teammates to avoid taking burst damage and getting popped to start the fight

current costs of bruiser itemization mean that some never get the chance to properly bully tank opponents in lane and therefore build an advantage going into teamfights because of expensive itemization - by the time item(s) are finished, laning is over and they can never get a 1v1 to bully; this is exacerbated by several other factors - oppressive jg ganks and dmg, midlane roams, excessive sustain, tp

adc's should be the champs that: dps down objectives, soften up enemy champs before a teamfight via poke, finish off low hp enemies your teammates (bruisers, fighters, mages, assassins) have gotten very low but not quite enough to finish them off

adc's are champs who should rely on positioning and TEAMMATES to keep them alive - not drain-tanking people who get in their face and nearly 1-shot them

if adc's go full crit and ga, they should deal NO damage to enemies who have 2+ armor items (not counting tabi); absolutely none

healing amplification from crits needs to be REMOVED

if adc's want to survive an enemy(s) who gets in range to burst them (and has the damage - or should have the dmg), they should need ga, maw, or some other highly defensive item; not just a shield or heal from a support, a phantom dancer, etc. type stuff

NipsahoyMar 4, 20184 votes

{quoted}

You look at seasons past where they were in a good spot and see:

burst mages and assassins can delete adc's when they properly land their combos - unless the adc has ga or an mr item besides boots

adc's needed armor pen to do meaningful damage to opponents with even just a single armor item

adc's couldn't DREAM about fighting a bruiser or fighter 1v1 unless they were way ahead of said melee champ

teams could win without needing their adc to be the primary - much less almost the ONLY - damage source

two champs with bruiser-esq damage could dive an adc through decent levels of enemy cc and pop them - something like vi plus renekton for example - without having to commit to full damage builds to do so; now you're lucky if you can do this with full damage build

adc's should not, nor were they intended to be, the exclusive source of dps to kill opponents; bruisers, fighters, and mids with spammable abilities are intended to provide meaningful dps in teamfights - the former while being tanky, the latter two not so tanky but coordinating with the engage of their teammates to avoid taking burst damage and getting popped to start the fight

current costs of bruiser itemization mean that some never get the chance to properly bully tank opponents in lane and therefore build an advantage going into teamfights because of expensive itemization - by the time item(s) are finished, laning is over and they can never get a 1v1 to bully; this is exacerbated by several other factors - oppressive jg ganks and dmg, midlane roams, excessive sustain, tp

adc's should be the champs that: dps down objectives, soften up enemy champs before a teamfight via poke, finish off low hp enemies your teammates (bruisers, fighters, mages, assassins) have gotten very low but not quite enough to finish them off

adc's are champs who should rely on positioning and TEAMMATES to keep them alive - not drain-tanking people who get in their face and nearly 1-shot them

if adc's go full crit and ga, they should deal NO damage to enemies who have 2+ armor items (not counting tabi); absolutely none

healing amplification from crits needs to be REMOVED

if adc's want to survive an enemy(s) who gets in range to burst them (and has the damage - or should have the dmg), they should need ga, maw, or some other highly defensive item; not just a shield or heal from a support, a phantom dancer, etc. type stuff

So ADCs should die to bruisers, junggernauts, mages and assassins and should do no damage to anyone that bought a armor item? Looks how absolutely absurd and stupid some of these comments are. You might as well just remove the class from the game with all these ideas.

woodvsmurphMar 4, 20181 votes

False. You either are a new player - started last season or sooner, or you aren't reading carefully - no offense meant. Let me explain more clearly.

In seasons past, adc's that positioned too close behind their frontline could be initiated on by a good flash or dash from someone like renekton, malphite, vi, etc. This would be followed up on by someone like another bruiser or fighter OR by a mage or assassin. In such an engage, the adc would GUARANTEED die (or have ga popped) for positioning poorly. This rewarded the other team PROPERLY for engaging well. Currently, it's more like a 50/50 of it the adc would die in such a scenario. To avoid this, adc's AND squishy mages and assassins would have to position further back until the opposing team had burned their initial hard engage. After this, they were safe to be closer to the frontline and dishing out their burst or dps. This also works in the current meta - as it should; adc's who position properly do not get blown up. No issues with this. Issue is with the fact that even when they fail to do this, they don't die for it when the other team executes properly.

When I say no damage - consider this - I can build 200+ armor on a bruiser, and thanks 4 crit item, ga, lifesteal adc and current setup, I will still take like 900 dmg aa's. Replace the lifesteal or the ga with a last whisper type item and you get up to maybe 1400 on crits. Your attack speed is at least 2.0 - thus 2 aa's per sec. So you are doing 1800dmg per sec to 2800 dmg per sec to a TANKY champ. Through 2 armor items plus ninja tabi, you are doing more damage to an opponent than a burst mage will do with their full combo when the opponent only has ONE magic resist item. You get to keep doing this level of damage for as long as you can aa. Considering most bruisers have maybe 4k hp, you will kill them in... about 2.5-3 sec. WTF. Just think about how obnoxious that shit is for any other role than adc to deal with. Let me help you picture it better. Have you seen a fed well-played yi or xin in a low elo teamfight? That's literally what adc's get to be late game regardless of if they are fed or not just because they are an adc. With their advantages of: range, mobility, 2summoner spells for survival (vs ignite, tp, or smite other roles usually have), peeling from teammates, shields/heals/ults they have more protection than any other role. Furthermore, they currently can get massive healing without even building lifesteal. Almost no other role can take that rune or they will get destroyed in lane for it. With all this, adc's have the proper tools at their disposal to carry if they play well enough to DESERVE to carry. But rather than do this, we make them even stronger or other roles with DAMAGE even weaker so they are FORCED to carry. So other roles are FORCED to be supplemental damage at best.

Let me help you picture this better from a toplaner perspective. Imagine you are an adc and you get fed in laning phase. Despite no help from jg or mid or tp's from top, you overcome multiple ganks by the enemy jungler and mid and win your lane hard. You have a 2 level advantage and half an item lead. But your toplaner fed the opposing darius. If you splitpush the rest of the game, you will be collapsed on by multiple enemies and killed because your team is too weak or too dumb to sit at a tower and stall the other team while you split 2v2 and win the game. If you teamfight, despite your proper kiting, you get run down every fight by the enemy sej cc, or the enemy galio cc, and the lulu buffed and sped up enemy darius. You play as perfectly as humanly possible, but your teammates just don't have the damage or know how to play properly and no matter how well you itemize to kill darius and defend against his damage, he kills you. You either have to spend 98% of the fight zoned away from doing any damage as your teammates get aced and leave you to 1v5 defend inhib tower or you die because you fight as best you can with your team. How fun would such a game be as an adc? How fun was it when that exact scenario could be done to you by not a darius - but a tank doing that much damage to you? It wasn't fun - it was bullshit. Well, that's basically what most bruisers and fighters get to experience in teamfights currently - unless they are hella fed and none of the other team is strong. Don't believe me? Look at what is played in high elo and the pro scene - tanks and very SAFE damage dealers in vlad or gnar (kinda a tank too) or gp. Jax isn't even played toplane so much - just in jg as a full tank with no damage or maybe triforce for damage. Renekton is unviable. Darius gets kited too hard - if played at all, it's essentially as full tank and he's not dunking anyone after laning phase. Riven can only jump in if her team has 2+ tanky champs who engage and soak all the major hard cc and burst of enemies (like we discussed earlier a good adc SHOULD HAVE TO DO) before she can go in - lest she get cc'd and popped before doing any damage. Think about how much fun it was trying to play vayne or jinx or cait when it was lethality adc meta. Not very fun right? That's exactly what it's like trying to play many FUN toplane champs in a tank or ranged safe damage dealer (like gp, vlad) meta. And that meta is enforced partially because most bruisers and fighters aren't allowed to do proper burst or dps to the enemy backline these days. And to come close to dealing that level of burst, they have to build entirely for 1-shotting adc's or mids rather than build a viable teamfight build - because either they 1-shot or they die instantly for building full damage - a bruiser build with meaningful damage AND durability in teamfights just doesn't really exist anymore past early game.

I can't speak as in depth for midlaners, but let's suffice to say they eventually become irrelevant in terms of damage unless they too can get onto and 1-shot enemy carries. Besides some initial burst from stuff like sion ult plus q combo, tanks should be a non-threat to adc's. Tanks' burst damage should be enough to soften up an adc for their teammates to burst them down with BURST damage, but not nearly enough that adc's have to blow flash or heal due fear of some tank killing them 1v1. But by the same token, tanks and tanky bruisers with proper armor items should not be getting chunked by adc's with no armor pen. If you're hitting a 240 armor 3500hp champ with no armor pen adc, you should be doing maybe 400 dmg per aa at full build when critting. If you're hitting a 300+ armor tank with 4k+ hp, you should be doing 200-250 damage per aa. It's nowhere near that right now. I'm all for rewarding adc's for playing properly, but other roles need to be properly rewarded for playing well too - and currently not all of them are. An assassin needs to snowball early or be irrelevant...moreso perhaps than before and has a smaller window to do so. Most mages not named ryze or cassio lack the kill threat they used to have after a moderate window in the early/mid game. Their window used to be much larger and their mid/late and late game damage still relevant. Bruisers and some fighters are shafted on all fronts - forced into building improperly so they either go for risky 1-shot builds and pray for the best in teamfights or more often build as pseudo tanks - lacking any relevant damage which is a disservice to their name as bruisers, their role, and their purpose. Adc's aren't the only or the sole problem, but they are at the center of a large portion of the major issues with the game right now.

LemurKickMar 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

When I say no damage - consider this - I can build 200+ armor on a bruiser, and thanks 4 crit item, ga, lifesteal adc and current setup, I will still take like 900 dmg aa's. Replace the lifesteal or the ga with a last whisper type item and you get up to maybe 1400 on crits. Your attack speed is at least 2.0 - thus 2 aa's per sec. So you are doing 1800dmg per sec to 2800 dmg per sec to a TANKY champ.

Dude you're so full of shit, no adc is putting out 900+ damage crits against anyone with any armor even with last whisper and no champion in the game is hitting 2800 dps in any situation especially against tanky champs, you can't even hit that on target dummy's as Vayne with guinsoos + botrk. Sure adcs are too strong right now and bruisers definitely need help but you're overexaggerating by a mile.

woodvsmurphMar 4, 20181 votes

No I'm not. I've played this game for years - first as a support main, then toplane. I know what I've seen firsthand. Just because you haven't personally seen China or Europe or whatever doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't pumped out 900dmg crits doesn't mean no one has.

LemurKickMar 4, 20181 votes

I'm not even sure why you're trying to argue this, I'm not even speaking from experience, I literally just tested it by opening up practice tool right after reading your post and with the exact build you mentioned (4 crit titem + ga + lifesteal) on a level 18 Vayne the biggest crit I hit with ult + tumble was 600 on the target dummy which only has 100 armor. So no, there's not gonna be any 900 damage crits against over 200 armor let alone 1400, so quit pulling numbers out of your ass. If you want to have an actual discussion you can't make shit up.

Teridax68Mar 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What would the playerbase say that the ADC class should be good and weak at??

Strengths I think are core to every marksman (besides some rare design exceptions):

Range
DPS

Contributions I think are core to specific marksman subclasses:

Dueling, which can allow for:
Mobility
Burst
Teamfighting, which can allow for:
AoE
Utility/CC
Objectives, which can allow for:
Anti-turret damage
Vision

Weaknesses I think are, or at least should be core to marksmen as a whole:

Squishiness
Telegraphed intentions (a marksman typically shouldn't be able to jump you from outta nowhere, with some very few exceptions)

{quoted}

What needs to be changed about how they are currently?

My main problems with the marksman class right now:

Their items make them all play the same way: because marksman items mostly just add extra autoattack damage, and do so in the same way (i.e. mostly just flat damage through self-multiplying stats), the near-totality of the power of marksmen ends up being pretty much the same across all members of the class. Even among marksmen, autoattacks are among the most homogeneous mechanics in the game, so while it's okay for marksmen to rely on autoattacks to function, they still need to shape that power through their unique kits, rather than just the same few stats and items.
There's too much overlap to their contributions: I mentioned above what I think should be defining features of marksman subclasses, but the problem right now is that it's not really possible to split marksmen cleanly into subclasses. Again, because most of their power ends up being the same, marksmen all end up being at least somewhat good at most of the above contributions, and thus overlap on each other's strengths.
Marksmen lack interactivity: a defining feature of marksmen thus far is that they tend to be very reliable. I do not count that as a strength, however, since I don't think reliability should really be a strength beholden to an entire class, and in such amounts. The direct result of excessive reliability on marksmen, namely through most of their power being placed into damage that cannot miss, as well as a bunch of on-demand steroids, free-targeted mobility and point-and-click, self-peeling crowd control, is that they tend to lack counterplay overall, and so are frustrating to deal with, particularly when they get to deal tons of damage.
Marksmen carry the hardest by default: one of the biggest obstacles to diversity in bot lane right now is that marksmen as a class tend to outscale everyone else, including carries from other classes. We're at a point where Nasus, once considered the very definition of a hypercarry, is no longer deemed able to carry as hard as the average marksman. Part of this is a balance problem, but much of this boils down again to marksman itemization, which makes the class scale multiplicatively off of three different stats, when other classes generally only scale off of two. Because marksman items cause members of the class to hyperscale by default, the class has remained the default carry class in the game since its beginning. Additionally, because structures are vulnerable to attacks and attack steroids, but not abilities, marksmen also end up being by far the best class at pushing objectives, with little room for competition.
Riot has warped the game's balance and design around marksmen: an ongoing problem has been Riot's tendency to force certain features to cater to marksmen exclusively, pushing out the competition even when they already had no real chance of competing. The overwhelming presence of support items and even support kits that cater exclusively to marksmen is one sign of this, as has been Riot's balancing of marksmen, especially relative to tanks: because marksmen have been designated as the game's tank-busters, they have been given the damage output to kill tanks... via flat damage. As a result, marksmen have also ended up outputting burst-per-second, and tanks themselves have become far too difficult to kill for any class but the marksman.

My personal ideas for solutions to the above problems:

Rework marksman items, and flat-out weaken them: In general, I think marksmen need less power from items, and more from their innate kits. Marksman items should still enhance their ability to deal ranged DPS, but shouldn't really have good access to burst (i.e. Statikk Shiv) or defenses (e.g. GA, life steal, Mercurial Scimitar, Hexdrinker, etc.). Specific nerfs I think should happen to marksman itemization:
Remove burst from marksman itemization: Statikk Shiv is the main culprit, though the overall amount of raw damage marksmen have also causes them to output burst as a baseline after a few items. If a marksman is to apply burst, that should come from their own kit, not their items.
Remove/nerf marksman defenses, including life steal: Marksmen are meant to be squishy, but have simultaneously been balanced around surviving focus from the entire enemy team, hence them being given access to some of the best defensive effects in the game, including the strongest source of itemized sustain. Marksmen do not need to be this durable, and shouldn't have to be focused by the entire enemy team every match.
Remove/rework crit: Crit is the third stat to marksman scaling that I think needs to go, at least in its current state. Pseudorandom damage isn't innately fun or interactive, and has been a major pain point with marksmen for years. The stat has no real place in a competitive game environment, and should only stay if it can be turned into something with actual gameplay, and not just a third source of multiplicative scaling exclusively for marksmen.
Update marksman kits, and buff them overall: Marksmen I think could be a tremendously fun class if they got to express themselves uniquely, and gave their opponents more opportunities to play around them besides just dog-piling them in teamfights. Specific changes I think should happen to marksman kits:
Diversify their autoattacks: Autoattacks are the core of a marksman's playstyle, and each marksman deserves to have their own, distinct autoattacking style. This should also allow items that buff autoattacking power to affect each marksman differently.
Make their abilities more interactive: Allowing opponents to mitigate the power of a marksman's kit could go a long way towards making them feel better to play against, and overall there should always be a clear path for a player to feel like they outplayed a marksman and succeeded for it. Making steroids conditional, or adding significant tradeoffs, for example, would establish a clearer power difference between baseline marksman damage (which should be just as good as the baseline power of any other class), and successful marksman damage (which should feel really good). Similarly, adding more variance to their mobility and crowd control, variance that depends on their opponent's plays, should also make them feel less frustrating to try to kill.
Trim their contributions down to specific subclasses: Several marksmen have historically been a problem because they flat-out do too much, with Twitch and Kalista as prime examples: Twitch is a very bursty duelist who also has immense teamfighting power, for example, whereas Kalista has an unholy mix of duelist mobility and personal survivability, teamfighting ally synergy and crowd control, and objective-centric power. These kits shouldn't have to be good at everything, and giving them significant tradeoffs and weaknesses would improve diversity and enjoyment overall.
Give marksmen varied power curves: Currently, there are already marksmen whose kits favor them in the early or mid game, alongside genuine late-game marksmen. Emphasizing these unique power curves, instead of trying to make every marksman scale like a carry (like what happened with Kindred), would allow the class to be separated from the idea of the game's carry, and could allow other carries to shine alongside them, while potentially also allowing marksmen to thrive in more positions.
Update support kits and items to no longer be marksman-centric: Supports deserve to operate on a wider range of targets, and not just focus one player all the time every match. This I think needs to be implemented in two ways:
Remove marksman-exclusive bonuses on support kits, and make their power more general-purpose, if still more beneficial to certain classes: Stats like Janna's AD on her shield, or Lulu's combination of attack and movement speed, only really make sense on one class of champions, and aren't so great on others, even fighters. While it's okay for certain supports to synergize with certain types of champions, their power should still be able to meaningfully benefit others as well.
Remove marksman-exclusive bonuses on support items, and make their power more general-purpose, if still more beneficial to certain classes: As with support kits, items like Ardent Censer, Zeke's Convergence and even Knight's Vow skew heavily towards marksmen, shutting out other potentially viable ally synergies. Allowing these items to benefit a greater variety of classes, while still perhaps synergizing with some champions better than others, would give supports far more choice.

The TL;DR to all this is I think marksmen are primarily defined as ranged, autoattack DPS champions, and can then specialize into a few more strengths, namely dueling, teamfighting or objective control, while generally remaining squishy and telegraphed. Currently, however, too much of their power is focused on their items, which themselves focus exclusively on their autoattacks. Marksmen need more kit power and less item power, and with that they could become more interactive, while allowing for more diversity and enjoyment overall.

NipsahoyMar 4, 20181 votes

I'm not a new player I've been playing since season 3 and what you described can still happen. Marksmen with poor positioning can be easily punished with hard engage or flash. They don't build much defenses. Most Marksmen have very clear defined weaknesses that can be punished by good teams I see it every day when I play. The only real major adjustment I'd agree with is maybe lowering their early item spike dmg and delaying it a bit further, but not by much. The boards use too much hyperbole for my tastes like saying a marksmen can stand there drain tanking an entire team while they are being focused and that they do 2k crits at level 6 and whatever other BS people make up. The class is strong if you get a nice lead and your team can play around you but most teams can't do that at low ELO. They are still very susceptible to being hard engaged on and bursted down even while fed. A Marksmen that's not doing well is even more useless. If you are 0-3 then good luck doing anything unless the game stalls out another 20 minutes.

Bruisers are even worse imo. No one likes when bruisers are good because they are super unhealthy play patterns. Too much health to be taken down by mages or tanks or assassins and enough damage to kill you in a few seconds and they usually have fairly good mobility as well.

I mean if you honestly believe a 4k hp tank with 300 armor should only be getting hit for 200 damage that's frankly absurd. That tank would never die. You'd have to sit there beating on them for a good 10 seconds at least. Other champs would do even less. An assassin wouldn't be able to do anything nor would most bruisers since they don't build crit. You'd need 20 aas to kill that tank....rofl.

Look at champs like Camille and Fiora. Absolutely gross design.

karuaanMar 5, 20181 votes

This is also the problem with the current meta, the adcs are too safe not the damage that they do. I don't think adcs need nerfs. They deal the correct amount of damage I just think their safety is broken. To fix this meta, assassins need a buff. Assassins are too weak because of 2 reasons. 1. Supp items are way too strong. 2. Assassins have been gutted. Having an assassin is not a big advantage to teams imo because having an assassin means you lose wave clear late game, which is where control and burst mages thrive.

The issue with assassins atm is that range is too overpowering and their pushing power has been nerfed too hard. A mid lane assassin wants to push out lane and roam unless they can kill mid. Good luck pushing out a wave as zed or talon vs someone like azir or even lux (even though these assassins counter these champs). Zed needs his w to push out the waves (Which for some reason doesn't even kill caster minions anymore unless insanely fed) which has like a 20 sec cd early game. Talon needs like 2-3 ws early to push out lane, which while doing so talon has no mana left to do anything anymore.

The other issue is these burst mages who do the same amount of damage that assassins do now faster, from range and have more utility. Think syndra, viktor, cass or imo the most broken champ in the game atm Galio. These guys can also one shot an overextended or badly positioned adc faster than an assassin from range. The issue these burst mages have atm is getting into the range of an adc and not being dead since adcs can 3 shot low health enemies now and a well-positioned adc should be making sure these burst mages can't get into their range. This is where an assassin is needed to these main damage dealers. Only an assassin with their mobility can get close to the adcs and kill them to make sure their team wins the team fights.

As for Galio the champ does too much well. He is too tanky to trade against in the mid lane. While he will one shot all champs mid lane. On top of that, his utility is insane. His w taunt plus knockup is a broken combo for a champ who can 1v1 every mid laner and is still very tanky. If he gets into a tough matchup you just q the wave and then roam and use your utility.