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What's wrong with Pantheon?

YumaS2Astral··4 votes·1,096 views

Everytime I use him, it seems like he is essentially useless late game. I mean, there are some champions who fall off late game, such as Lee Sin, Zed, Elise, Renekton... but they aren't completely useless late game, Lee Sin for example still has his ult, which can be used for peeling. Zed is still unduelable late game and Elise still has her stun which can potentially be game changing. As for Renekton... He is tanky as hell.

However, I don't find that Pantheon has some of that usefulness. He is one of the few, if not the only champion that falls off late game... literally. Everytime I play him it seems like I have 20 minutes to end the game before I start to become useless because Pantheon doesn't have good damage, neither does him have good damage, and he has zero teamfighting presence when compared to many other champions.

It seems like he is THE definition of a champion who has massive early game presence to make up for his poor late game. What can I do to change this, or is Pantheon meant to work that way? I rarely use Pantheon because, even though he has the potential to win most lanes, unless my entire team is snowballing it feels like I will not be of any use for my team as Pantheon.

25 Comments

Ralanr5 votes

As a Pantheon main I can say that he is extremely powerful early game and extremely item reliant late game if you want to deal with you opponents.

You want to win early. If you can't then you want to pick off squishy targets in team fights.

Personally I wish his W had a longer stun and wasn't a point and click ability (keep his spear point and click though. I like seeing it follow someone after they flash. And Nidelee's spear is worse). If it was a skill shot like Sejuani or Fiora's dash it would give him some great mobility.

His ult is not best for dealing damage. Given it's slow landing time and obvious point of entry, it's better to place it where the enemy has to go rather than on top (or do it to a bush. They won't see it).

He's just not a late game champ. His hour of power in early game is why I hate trying to jungle with him. But he's good too, possibly a counter to Fiora because of his passive.

COMMING1 votes

How about....?

His stun actually becomes a skill shot by jumping onto a target.... makes him more mobile and useful but still does not solve the problem of late game lol

Ralanr1 votes

That I like.

The late game problem is only a problem for some people. As much as I wish his window was wider, I could work around it.

Fatalitý1 votes

I don't think I've seen a Pantheon main before. You guys must be rare! lol Also he is a huge counter to Fiora. Even before the rework he countered her.

Ralanr1 votes

Can't say I've seen many. Though I am an unranked "scrub" so I cannot say that I have the widest view. Nor can I say I am a "PanthGod" as some people might call themselves when they see how well they play with a champion.

That's what I love about Pantheon's passive. Any autoattack that deals over 40 damage gets NOPED, whether it be NasusQ, Fiora's new passive, or a turret shot. Though beyond that it doesn't help against extra effects of empowered auto attacks like silences or stuns, and I'm not sure how effective it can really be against melee champs who have very high attack speeds. It's like stopping one bullet from an AK-47, only to be riddled with the rest. Sure one bullet can save your life, but it's a slim chance.

I think my biggest grip with Pantheon is that if you mess up early game you really mess up. It's not impossible to climb back up, but you're not very impactful after early game to begin with (Unless you're smart with his ultimate). It's my grip with a lot of early game champions really, mess up and you're screwed. But I'm probably wrong in that regard.

Fatalitý1 votes

Yeah I don't play pantheon often but one time I did and I started off like 13-2 in the jungle I'm pretty sure. By mid game when we had a team fight, I did no damage what so ever or didn't even tank much. So I'm guessing if I play pantheon jungle again I should let my teammates get the kills on ganks instead of me.

Ralanr1 votes

Really? Who did you try to focus in the teamfight?

Fatalitý1 votes

The mid laner zed I jumped on, and since I had like all the teams kills I got blown up fast and then my teammates

Randomonium2 votes

I agree, Pantheon's scaling is completely off. He is super strong early but if you don't end the game quick he falls off hard. If he gets really fed the best he can hope for is to pick off the enemy team's carry before dying himself in a team fight. There's very little potential for him to carry any game that goes past the 30 minute mark.

I know that other champions are way higher on the priority list for reworks but I hope that Riot will eventually give him some love. I hope that they lower his base stats and increase his scaling so he won't fall off as hard. Like others have said, his W needs to target an area rather than be point in click. That would give him an escape or a very powerful engage tool if the enemy clumps up. His E has always been very hard to balance and I hope they update it to be more tactical. Maybe have it charge up like Sion's Q for increased effect. I also hope they tweak his passive. In its current form its amazing in the early game for tower diving and trading but its absolutely useless in team fights. Maybe instead of allowing him to block a turret or auto attack make it so that his abilities and auto attacks increase his Armor and MR temporarily (kind of like Graves' passive.)

Finally, can we please stop having his W and R scale off of AP.

Ralanr1 votes

There are a lot of times I question the usefulness of his passive. I love it, no one else has anything similar, but in a meta filled with AutoAttackers with crazy attack speed, I feel like blocking one or two hits isn't useful. If he was an AA champ his passive would be dangerously good, but he's an AD caster.

Personally I don't like the idea of scaling armor and MR because so many people have that.

His E is odd. The passive is great (wish it worked on towers, maybe it does) and I'm curious as to why it does double damage to champions. I don't think a charge up would work because he's a light fighter (skirmisher I like to say) not a tank.

If his shield had AD scalings it'd be scaring as hell. But I'd like it, if they did that they could keep the static 1 second stun.

Pantheon certainly isn't underpowered when played right. Though it certainly feels like it when compared to champs that have been getting buffs lately. As he is though he's a great Fiora counter and a great ganker with proper use of his ult.

I guess Pantheon's main problem is Tristana's old problem. Most people seem to do his job better and longer.

Randomonium1 votes

Way back in the day Riot had a hell of a time balancing Heartseeker Strike. It either was really overpowered and able to clear entire waves easily or it was useless against champions. Eventually Riot came up with the double damage to champions thing.

A channeled ability on a light fighter is completely weird. At least a charge up ability would give him some options instead of rooting himself for 0.75 seconds. Maybe they should just come up with a completely different ability and scrap Heartseeker Strike (though I hope they keep the passive.)

I can't think of any champions that get stacking resistances when they use abilities or attacks. The closest I can think of is Graves. Its definitely more original than gaining mana/health for minion kills or attack 3 times to get a special effect.

Ralanr1 votes

Garen's W I think.

Personally I wish to keep the passive, but allow it to block more than just damage. If you block Garen's Q for example, you block the silence.

Randomonium1 votes

Garen's W gives Armor and MR passively when you kill a unit. I don't think anyone gives you Armor and MR actively by attacking or using abilities.

I understand wanting to negate on hit effects on Pantheon with his passive but I can't see any way to incorporate that into a passive that is actually useful in the late game. The only thing that could work that way would be a passive that acts like a Banshee's Veil passive but I think that would be extremely difficult to balance. In my mind Pantheon's only weakness should be CC. He should be a beast that can maul enemy teams but vulnerable to CC. Giving him some weaknesses allows Riot to buff him in other areas and actually have a defined role the game.

Ralanr1 votes

That's if we want his power to push for late game.

He can't be great all game. I'd prefer him to be a mid game champ but he's fine early game. But a rework might change it.

Killer of Poros2 votes

I just want his stun to last a little longer. It's what keeps him able to stay on his target, but besides that he doesn't much chance to chase with. Then again I'm just a silver pleb who likes to play him so what do I know.

LadyRenly1 votes

I've seen him get wrecked, and wrecked him myself, only for him to come back past the laning phase. It's just a gross generalization, I guess.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

I've seen him get wrecked, and wrecked him myself, only for him to come back past the laning phase. It's just a gross generalization, I guess.

/\ That's another reason why I stopped playing him.

He isn't that hard to counterpick and all of his counterpicks not only beat him at lane phase, they outscale him during mid/late game too.

Pantheon should only be selected as a counterpick and not as a general pick. And even then, I can't remember a single champion who can't outscale Pantheon once the mid or late game comes.

Ralanr1 votes

Because he's a early game champion.

He and Renekton are the strongest in early lane. But I'm starting to wonder if that's too extreme.

Wind Whistler1 votes

That 3.60 Bonus AD scaling on his E tho.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wind Whistler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bybjp0lz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-19T20:16:06.915+0000)

That 3.60 Bonus AD scaling on his E tho.

Which is short ranged, is channeled, and is over time, easy to avoid with a dash for example.

Also, Pantheon can't really afford to build full AD like Zed or Rengar or Kha'Zix can. His poor mobility and lack of usefulness late game forces him to build tanky after two or three damage items. So Pantheon can't take full advantage of that fantastic scaling.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

Which is short ranged, is channeled, and is over time, easy to avoid with a dash for example.

Also, Pantheon can't really afford to build full AD like Zed or Rengar or Kha'Zix can. His poor mobility and lack of usefulness late game forces him to build tanky after two or three damage items. So Pantheon can't take full advantage of that fantastic scaling.

Well, for a cone ability, I'd say it has pretty good range. He should be able to get one off before dying, which is definitely enough damage to contribute to a team fight. Not to mention if you have a Kayle on your team, you can ult him and then have him go in with his W, then stab the shit out of everyone, and you can also use a Banshee's Veil. Also, it takes only about two seconds for the channel to complete, and he only needs to get two strikes to really do a bunch of damage. You seem to have your mind set in stone that he's completely useless late game, when there are still a bunch of things you can try to make it work.

Toastey1 votes

Pantheon has a late game presence, with the stipulation that your team comp has a late game presence. I'm not sure if you've ever pulled off a mandrop flank and sandwiched the enemy between you and your Leona while your carries are free hitting. All you have to do late game as Panth is to get good mandrop flanks, then trade 1 for 1. Just pop the ADC every time. Unless they buy Banshee's, it shouldn't be that hard. Your combo is 2/3rds point-and-click after all.

EvilMerodach1 votes

Split push, mandrop if an object is being contested, hope everyone dies instantly. About all you can do late game. The near global ulti is still good late game, just harder to predict where to use it, it gets more and more hit or miss as the game goes on. But being able to shove top while still having the possibility to be at a fight mid is nice. Can force some 4v5's like that a lot. (Make someone go top to stop your push, then be mid where the fight is going on.)

I build him tank and half think like an assassin. Use that passive on his E. It might be 'ksing' kinda, but also increases your damage output a lot, and lets others switch to a second target....sometimes...usually they just keep going ham for that guy that's going to die to your spear anyway..and wasting their dps. But, eh, whatever.

Also he works well with zone control people, who can MAKE people stay where you are ultiing. Anivia Azir GalioHeimerdinger JarvanIV Leona Lissandra Nautilus Sejuani Skarner And most of those are kind of late game champs. You'll just have to ride along after a point. Do what you can, and hope your high damage people can keep control of team fights.

cerotoneN1 votes

I tend to run Pantheon with two AD items and go full tank afterwards. If I get a Tiamat and BC early in the game I generally end up dominating the early to mid game. After that, it's really easy to dive their ADC or peel any going after yours.

Also, the Titanic Hydra works wonders on Panth. I ran a Titanic Hydra, BC, Warmogs, Randuins, and Banshee Veil the other day and the active on the Hydra was for 450. He can remain bursty in mid-late game with this item.

Rossendale1 votes

I play Panth jungle quite a bit, and the passive is absolutely amazing for his first clear. If you take Q first and W second, you can very easily clear your first camp, first buff, second camp and second buff without having to recall. In fact, you should have enough hp to try a gank somewhere right afterward if you chug down your potions. I don't have much experience with junglers, but I feel like he has one of the best first clears since the passive can block so much damage from the large monsters.

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