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Can Shyvana exchange the AP and CD buffs for literally any other buff?

PapaGreg21··42 votes·10,616 views

I don't think there are worse buffs they could have picked for her. If they bumped up her AS, AD, MS, ARMOR, MR, HEALTH or heaven forbid decided to help out the weak batch twin bite or the goofy "interrupted by everything" ultimate she would be in moderately good shape. Instead the two things that absolutely nobody that plays Shyvana really wanted were improved upon. It's almost like Riot is trolling Shyvana mains at this point.

69 Comments

The DrBonjigollo37 votes

"Can Shyvana exchange the AP and CD buffs for literally any other buff?"

Literally any buff? Reduced mana costs.

Kingnewgameplus14 votes

10 auto attack range.

DeathBot66618 votes

Shyvanna ult now drags the target an extra 1 unit.

General Esdeath 10 votes

+5 AD

Photos of Ghosts12 votes

That's actually very significant on a farming jungler. That'd mean level 6 one minute earlier at least.

RiotRiot ThEntropist16 votes

Hey,

I was/am the playtester who usually works with designers on Shvyana so I can chime in a bit.

The AP buffs were more of a token thing to help with the potential of rageblade being built on more champions (Didn't pan out). It was just supposed to allow her to feel somewhat okay about building it cause it had ap.

The CD buff we just did was to give her a little bump early in the game if she was falling behind. Didn't really hit as hard as I expected tbh.

She isn't on our radar, to my knowledge, right now but it doesn't mean we won't revisit her at some point.

I'd be happy to chat about shyv a bit and see where you guys think she is at/where she could use some love.

Jofeyy13 votes

FIX. THE. ULT.

Pls <3

Really though you'd think it would knock people back and carry them with you, but no... Most of the time they just pass right through like an awkward glitch.

RiotRiot ThEntropist8 votes

Yeah this was what I really wanted as well. This would be a pretty large change due to the fact that it would add so much potential to her ganks and team fighting. In the end we decided not to pursue looking at making her ult more consistent because if we did we would have to look at doing a lot more for the champion that would quickly take us out of scope of what we were working on.

Plus the ult isn't really broken... it is working as currently intended, it just has a very small knock back tied to it because thematically that makes the ability feel more as expected, I mean she is a dragon flying through the air. In the end I'm 100% with you and would definitely like to see this cleared up/made stronger, it would just take more time investment on a designers part.

Jofeyy6 votes

Maybe a skill shot indicator that shows the range of how far the enemies will be dragged for? Just for clarity's sake.

Thanks for replying!

sortitus7 votes

Yeah, I'd love to see the indicator changed to something like Sion E, where you get a circle of the max range and an indicator of how far the target is pushed after that.

LankPants2 votes

How about immunity to displacements while ulting ala Malphite. That seems like a fair buff that would fit thematically.

Tobsters12 votes

Please make her ult uninterruptile. Please...

Some other champions have a gap-closer ultimates that have alot more powerful impact than shyvana's (e.g. Hecarim, Malphite, Vi, etc) and these ultimates can't be interrupted by any form of cc. but Shyvana's ult can be easily stopped by a single Thresh flay which isn't fair since it's the only gap closer she has.

The 2nd Horseman2 votes

Well all those champions except Malphite and Hecraim are targeted. And well Malphites based around his ultimate, it's his identity. And I mean shyvana gets something more then distance when she ults. I honestly didn't know Hecraim's ultimate was uninterruptible.

Captain Aishi6 votes

her ult isn't broken? half the time you ult straight through someone it doesn't even hit them (if gnar uses his e as you ult him, he will bounce off of you and not take damage or be interrupted, for example)

although the AP buff on her W made me feel less bad about buying a rylai's on her and using my W+R combo to become a makeshift equalizer XD

Phenova2 votes

Her ulti is definitly clunky. This ulti was made as an engage i guess but you push away your ennemy from the team (and no by flanking and coming right from behind is risky in the way that the ulti hit box is weird and sometimes you just go threw people ....).

I feel like her ulti need a rework somehow, actually her ulti is just a clunky and low version of hecarim without real CC (also hercaim ulti is way bigger than shyvana's one and he his immune to cc).

I can understand than adding a cc to shyvana ulti would make her stronger and maybe too much. Solution to this could be to reduce the damage and/or reduce the fury generation.

Edit: This video summed up the case of shyvana ulti https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRnH1dUbHDY&feature=youtu.be

Phenova1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvhmIX9s2Pc

another video where we can see how amazingly broken is her ultimate...

BlâckLotus1 votes

regarding the rageblade,was the rework sucesfull? i have seen more vaynes build it than jaxes/shyvanas etc.

HaloDragonX1 votes

it was terrible rework

Kayle is no longer a pro pick.

Unironic SJW1 votes

Complete failure. It was fine in its old state, at WORST needed number changes.

Dessem1 votes

because thematically that makes the ability feel more as expected, I mean she is a dragon flying through the air.

Might as well fear everyone who's within x range of her at any point during the leap, then.

I know I'd be feared if a dragon just jumped past me and into the fray.

Wizard Hat1 votes

In that case, in order to avoid overlap with other big aoe cc ults, could she maybe be immune to cc during the ult but not do any knockback? This would enable her to get to the backline more reliably instead of just getting kited without creating too much risk of shyvana insecs

Nkonjo1 votes

Logged in NA account just to ask this. If you are looking to buff her by tweaking her ult (without making it too strong like making it interruptible), please do one of these things please please please : make her able to cancel her ult, or make it go out when you are out of champion/epic-monsters combat. It feels terrible when you're getting a kill in a lane and you want to shove has hard as you can and kill the turret but you either have to wait for her ult to run out to get it sooner, or help out anyways and be sad because you know your ult will be delayed by adding a good 15s cd

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Shyvana as a champion is the definition of farming jungler. She clears mobs like there's no tomorrow, she has a weak laning phase and her ganks are pretty sub par even after she hits six unless she forces a dive with her teammates (and the turret AI changes are going to make early dives more risky).

So she just sits in the jungle and clears faster than any other champion, gets up to her full build faster than anyone else and wins the game. Or she loses because the enemy jungler has more map pressure than her.

It's really quite a binary situation. If Shyvana's numbers were too high during the Devourer era, that's fine, but perhaps she could use a little utility to make her feel better when she falls behind, or encourages her to gank a little earlier. Even a slow on her Flame Breath would be nice.

RiotRiot ThEntropist6 votes

Yeah that is more rework level talk but I think you bring up some good points. She is pretty straight forward, however I feel that some champions should be that way. She isn't meant to be a utility dragon, she is supposed to just get on you and wreck your face if you let her stay on you. I think variety in types of champions and what they bring are a good thing.

However, I do agree that this can make her feel that she is just overtuned or garbage because of how binary she can be. I'm just not sure if adding utility to her is the ideal solution.

sortitus1 votes

I think a few champions fit in this category, like Xin and Nocturne. They don't bring a lot to their team except the ability to get to the back line and hope they don't get kited after that. I personally call the class "Divers", but they're probably pretty close to what the Juggernaut rework was aiming for (maybe Noct a bit less given his higher reliability in assassinations due to spell shield and longer duration CC). They're very strong if you can't peel them off your carry, but useless if you have an abundance of CC or good coordination.

Right now, I feel like these non-Juggernaut diving champions don't feel great partially because they were ignored in the Juggernaut patch in favor of turning other tanks and fighters into similar back line threats and duelists. I'm definitely biased as a player of these three though.

kile1471 votes

Riot considers diving fighters a specific class (similar to juggernauts) and they plan on doing a pass on them sometime.

Skyroar1 votes

As a Shyvana player, I don't mind lacking utility and being heavily driven by brute force. It's just that using my brute force on jungle monsters for half the match isn't fun. I also think her kit lacks depth, which makes it boring sometimes. You can make some cool plays with R, and you have to know when is the best time to use W, but that's it. Coupled with her boring passive (it contributes nothing to make her playstyle more interesting), and an underwhelming dragon form (compared to, say, Gnar's transformation) makes Shyvana feel like she lacks some of the potential she could have.

All things that can only be fixed with a rework, unfortunately. Nonetheless, I wouldn't mind a small slow on Q, or something, in the meanwhile. if only to incentivate us to gank a bit more often.

Goosetard3 votes

I think she totally fell through the cracks with the whole "statbinding" craze because of the changes to a lot of items, in particular this item: item 3071.

If you're a toplane fighter, you need synergy with that item (or item 3078 like Irelia Hecarim Jax) or you'll be destroyed. Enough of the stats are wasted on her that it's not gold efficient. Armor shred isn't a good stat for her since she's doing pretty much 50/50 phys/magic damage. If you build trinity force, the mana is a waste (the AP is kind of... not completely anymore). It used to be a fun item when you're ahead.

So now I guess you can build a item 3748 and maybe a item 3022 then straight tank, but once whoever you're facing finishes a item 3071 they're probably just going to eat you since it's such a good item.

As pointed out by the sharp guys/gals below, no more AP on item 3078.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Triforce does not have AP since the start of season 6.

Reikken2 votes

{quoted}

If you build trinity force, the mana is a waste (the AP is kind of... not completely anymore). It used to be a fun item when you're ahead.

Triforce doesn't have AP anymore.

AFK Push2 votes

item 3078 Still better on her than item 3071 though due to more splitpushing power (Q burst on tower) and the attack speed on it. Though I do agree, she has crappy synergy with most items. I like item 3748 item 3078 then full tank, but the problem is that she won't have any sustain with this build (which imo is what she needs in her kit, if not utility)

Goosetard1 votes

Pre-nerf item 3153 was a fantastic choice for attack speed, damage, stickability, and sustain on her, but now it's not worth the price on almost anyone.

AFK Push1 votes

exactly, and if you take BORK then you won't likely max cdr and will be too squishy.

ProfDrDeath6 votes

Personally, I think that the buffed AP ratios on the various champions to get a tad more mileage out of Rageblade (or potentially Gunblade) were a nice idea.

However, there is a core issue with Rageblade currently, and that is the fact that you lose the permanency of the 25% AS from Recurve Bow on completing the item. This is actually more problematic for melee than for ranged champions, as the lower range means a lower window for attacking and stacking up. It is my opinion that we would see Rageblade more if it was changed to always give 25% AS (at least for melee champions).

RiotRiot ThEntropist3 votes

Rageblade has a few problems associated with it. Probably won't be looked at until at least mid pre season but I would tend to agree that does seem odd.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Mid season? That's 3/4 of a year away :(

RiotRiot ThEntropist1 votes

Blah, meant pre-season. We haven't locked down what is being worked on, but that is the EARLIEST I could imagine that it would be worked on. Potentially even later

La Bello1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bxgWB9dW,comment-id=00050003000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-04T06:52:38.381+0000)

Blah, meant pre-season. We haven't locked down what is being worked on, but that is the EARLIEST I could imagine that it would be worked on. Potentially even later

Why not give her a "GNAR!" equivalent ability to go with her Dragon ultimate? Something like a channeled firebreath or a tailwhip to add a bit of incentive for teams to pick her up over other bruisers. I remember a while back some rioters had this crazy Idea of Shyvana ult spawning a literal giant ring of fire that did immense damage, whatever happened to that idea?

Gixia1 votes

Since you mentioned reworks, I have a question that may be a bit out of scope for what you're able/willing to talk about right now, but...

So, every time, every single time, that Shyvana has ever actually become popular or meta, even the few times it's been as top Shyv without Devourer or any of its ilk, Meddler and other reds have immediately chimed in about how Shyvana is unhealthy for the game and/or broken in some way and they're looking at reworking her. This talk lasts until Shyv falls out of the meta, at which point suddenly she's completely fine and there's no need to rework her. Frankly, this leaves me very confused as to what the overall view of her on Riot's side is. Is she healthy or not? If she's unhealthy, what exactly is it about her that's bad for the game?

BastionKross1 votes

Riot tends to favor flashy champs when it comes to how long they stay meta/FOTM. Champs like Vayne and Zed can stay powerful for months on end, while less flashy champs like Shy get toned down in a patch or two.

Sona isn't a flashy champ outside of her ult (if she does her job right she actually prevents flashy plays) so she only gets to be strong for a few weeks before the nerfs start to pour in. However, champions like Graves and Lucian can run wild for half a season or more because the pros make the games look more exciting when they dash around and pentakill.

Sejuani as another good example from back in season 5. The cinderhulk changes made her very strong, and Riot knocked her off her high winrate with harsh nerfs soon after. Then she got nerfed again when cinderhulk was nerfed. When asked if she would be buffed back up because she got nerfed twice, a Rioter specifically stated no because she "needed some time out of the spotlight". This is translated as "Sejuani isn't a flashy champion that makes pro tourneys more fun to watch, so we're going to bury her for a while".

PapaGreg211 votes

Shyvana needs either more damage on twin bite or better utility (such as a slow when hitting a flame breath marked enemy.) She also needs to not have her ultimate interrupted by seemingly everything in the game. This is the only thing that needs to be improved upon. She was in a perfect position before devourer was released and now that it is gone she is in a worse state because of the twin bite nerf. Bloodrazor and Guinsoos aren't compatible enough with her kit to be considered core and BOTRK is in a generally weaker state than it usually is so she isn't getting any great power spikes from item completion. She is garbage as a top laner but I think everybody can live with that as long as she fairly strong in the jungle.

What bothers everybody the most is that twin bite was nerfed during her powerful devourer days but now that the item is gone it seems like there is no reason to not revert that change. I think most of us feel the plan was to make her into a bloodrazor/guinsoos builder that then goes tanky but that build is ineffective and most players are getting trinity force or BOTRK as their lone offensive item because nobody wants to be running around mid game with a blasting wand in their inventory as they try to build guinsoos.

Mister Support1 votes

One good thing is that with Dragon/Rift herald being so powerful now, Shyvana is strong in the sense of objective control. She can easily solo/duo most objectives with ease and counter jungle really well. Her dueling potential is still strong if you properly auto reset, but if you're going for more fighting or team focus then I'd recommend item 3022 , it's worked wonders for me so far with sticking to people and damage hasn't been a problem.

Linna Excel2 votes

Have you guys considered looking into her top lane potential again? She used to be able to top, but isn't anymore.

Skyroar2 votes

So, is Shyvana considered a diver or a juggernaut? What is riot's final stance on her role? Could we get a rework for her when riot dives (pun) into the divers?

Mister Support2 votes

I think the main problems that challenge Shyvana isn't necessarily a problem with her kit or numbers, but more a problem how the game evolved around her. A lot of people when they think of junglers will immediately think they should be able to gank and have to do it. But Shyvana's power at objective control and counter jungling is really powerful in its own right and I think people just don't realize it. At the time of devour being removed originally, the dragon buffs weren't exactly worth it at the time, same with Rift Herald. So there wasn't much strength in objective focused junglers. The other large issue that has effected shyvana, which didn't bother her in the past, has to be the amount of mobility and anti-mobility added to items ever since mid-season 5.

To explain, AP junglers have item 1410 , Bruisers have item 3078 item 3025 item 3071 , Mid laners have item 3285 item 3100 item 3116 , ADC's usually pick two of item 3078 item 3085 item 3094 item 3046 item 3087 , and even supports have item 3504 and there's an abundance of CDR now for most roles that allow for easier to access kiting and mobility spells, making kiting or just straight up out running a Shyvana really easy, and she just never got much of anything to help her keep up. It's to the point where I've felt like item 3022 summoner 6 is completely necessary just to keep up with people. And I'm not talking about keeping up with a Leblanc or a Fizz or Lucian, I'm talking about keeping up with a Jinx or a Viktor.

Now I'm not going to scream for some god-like buffs to happen, no. She doesn't need more damage because if she gets on someone, it's fine. She just has way too much trouble now getting on to people and staying on. If anything, I think her W - Burnout should get a change to where the movement speed duration and decay are reset whenever she lands a basic attack to extend the duration. This way she doesn't have an easier time reaching someone in the first place, just an easier time to stay on them after reaching them. Or, have it where if Shyvana successfully procs her Flame Breath, she gets a small burst of movement speed for say 1-1.5 seconds?

Lovelights1 votes

I like the movement speed reset on W idea.

MrWasjig5 votes

I think we can safely say that Shyvana was well and truly Sejuani'd

Shaaolin4 votes

Q damage nerf W dot dmg nerf item 3748 HUGE nerf item 3053 Nerf

And to top it all of item 1416 Sated devourer removed BY FAR HARDEST HIT FOR HER

Kosm1K1 votes

wouldn't the new one work better because of the %hp damage? Doesn't it work well with her E? I haven't played her in a while, so I'm a little out of the loop

runedara4 votes

The ult just feels bad when casting. Feels like I'm ulting into a dragon from skyrim given how glitchy it feels.

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