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This game is getting so stale

deadlychuck··29 votes·3,970 views

I feel like they sacrificed to much of the game's player creativity for "balance". They stopped making champions with multiple scaling skills all together. They might give a champion a single skill which scales with the non-primary stat RekSai Kalista Azir Gnar Velkoz , but it's nothing like years ago when a champion could be released and if the community would make them AD or AP was still unsure Blitzcrank TwistedFate KogMaw Skarner

It's kind of funny how a champion like Velkoz is released and from the start is expected to fall off and have a low play rate because he lacks the traits of the current meta.

The community is the one who "picks" the meta, but the game designers are the ones who decide how much the game can naturally evolve. When you remove the ability for the game to naturally evolve then your remove the part of the game which keeps it interesting.

Obviously this is a personal opinion because the majority of the community just enjoys playing the most power champion they can and feeling like and unstoppable bad ass, even if their skill isn't the reason they are playing so well. Warwick cough

Edit: So i didn't want to mention this, but it seems like this thread is getting a little attention. This is the exact same thing i saw happen to WOW, a game which i personally really enjoyed. The game lost it's crowd sourced nature and the devs began reinforcing the "correct" way to play a class. This started to happen towards the end of Wotlk and into Cata when they started having their largest drops in their player base. I'm not saying it will happen for League too, mainly because it's popularity as an E-Sport, but i could see people getting fed up with the game if it feels like the "right way" is being made into "the only (viable) way"

83 Comments

chumbler9 votes

The thing is their aim isn't actual balance, but instead "balance". They're incapable or unwilling to have multiple viable options, so instead you just get rotating top tiers (usually the result of terrible design). The idea that small adjustments can make huge changes in the game indicates not balance, but the exact opposite: that the game is extremely unstable.

If you're wanting strategy to be actually relevant rather than just picking whatever toolbox champion has the best numbers this patch, you should probably just find a different game. Riot is only interested in the latter.

qetzel2 votes

I would argue that a small change completely changing the top tier picks is a sign of balance. It suggests that the new top tiers were only just below the old ones, or that they were only being help back by that one problem.

And I would disagree with your final statement. Riot has recently buffed some non-meta champions. Kennen and Renekton among others. There was even a small buff to Shen, a previous 'problem champion'.

FyshinaTux7 votes

Honestly, I think one of the single worst things Riot could have done, was to implement Jungler items. Solidifying that as a company understood "meta" role, really narrowed the potential for changing up strats.

Cale01719 votes

I can't disagree more. Junglers have always been a bit locked in otherwise, and the AA reliant junglers didn't have any kind of support for what their kits need outside of the AD on an Elder Lizard. The current iteration of jungle items could use some tweaks, yes, but I'm really glad to see Riot catering to the needs of individual junglers on a case by case, even match by match, basis.

FyshinaTux1 votes

ugh, I learned not to argue with stupid just about a week ago...

Go ahead, think you're right, and don't understand what I'm talking about at all.

Now I just wish I knew how to ignore users on here...

SecretAgentHulk18 votes

Wow, way to insult a commenter who did nothing except express a valid opinion. You know the best way to ignore a person whose argument you don't like? DON'T REPLY.

FyshinaTux1 votes

I'd rather not have to read his drivel... I know you could do that on the old forums, just don't know how to on these ones yet.

SecretAgentHulk12 votes

Well I'm sure he'd rather not be insulted, blamed for the last stupid argument you had with someone else, and called obtuse because he disagrees with you. I don't care what you thought of his opinion; please remember that's a real human on the other side of the keyboard.

FyshinaTux1 votes

Quite frankly, he took ONE thing that I said completely out of context, and continued using ad hominem against me in our last argument, and failed REPEATEDLY to listen to reason.

I stand by what I said, and I don't give a fuck.

EDIT: and yes, he WAS the idiot I had an argument last that I am referring to in an earlier post...

qetzel7 votes

https://bookofbadarguments.com/?view=flipbook Page 30.

FyshinaTux1 votes

Oh, I'm not saying his argument is invalid because of our previous argument. I merely stated that I was going to "argue with stupid".

Meaning that I refuse to have any kind of conversation where he's on the other side, as a debate. Because I know from experience that he'll cling to ONE TINY LITTLE THING that, in the context in which I was using it, was COMPLETELY accurate (though inaccurate outside of the context I was using it), and just continue to QQ about how I'm retarded.

I'm not arguing with that kind of stupid, I said that I don't want to listen to his drivel, but not once did I say his point was invalid.

Cale01711 votes

Except I'm not anywhere near the sort of stupid that you're saying I am.

And Fyshie, pal, I'm so flattered you remember me. I can't help that the last time we met on the boards you said something that you had to backpedal later on to try and cover up, but I just wasn't willing to let you go without pointing out the contradiction on. It's hardly one tiny thing when it's the basis of the entire debate, but keep trying to make yourself feel like you had ground to stand on when you were caught dead out lying.

See, that's your fault. Not mine. And if you make a glaring mistake like that I'm going to throw it in your face. But that was last time, here you're just flat out incorrect. And from the wealth of downvotes, it seems I'm not the only one who thinks so.

SecretAgentHulk, you do Summoners proud. It's rare to see someone defending someone else on these forums. Let me know if you ever need a jungler to camp out your lane.

FyshinaTux1 votes

Oh yes, absolutely. I said that, in reference to ping differences from NA servers to LAN servers for LoL, that the number of people on the server makes no difference which, in the context it was said in, was absolutely correct.

You're the one that went full fucking retard and refused to understand that.

Black Star 12993 votes

Instead of just arguing back, none of us isn't going to get anywhere talking, so just don't feed the troll :D -PSA by BlackStar1299 (Thanks to whoever gave the book of bad arguments link, it was great)

P.S. Not a reference to what you think it is, my friend gave it to me, and 100% sure she does not watch anime

Cale0177 votes

I'm keeping this argument flipbook bookmarked forever. Bless you.

qetzel1 votes

Then I have carried out my purpose in life. You have fulfilled me.

Happy Christmas.

Cale0171 votes

May you be rewarded with many a victory screen. May your junglers campe your lane, and may your farm be ever higher than your opponents'.

Amen.

deadlychuck2 votes

The thing is that Auto attack jungling champions in general don't need dedicated items to be strong. item 3074

Honestly to me it always felt like the AP junglers were the ones who needed help. Anyone who could auto attack could jungle (i'll be it a little rough for some) but only if your kit was designed with natural healing or damage absorption can an AP jungle. AP needed a general item that would make it viable for almost any of them to jungle. After all jungle is basically another lane, unless you are trying to reinforce the meta then shouldn't you be trying to increase the viable champion pool without increasing the power of the current top junglers?

Cale0172 votes

Except that those champions in lane are encouraged to build more on hit effects. Shyvana, Nocturne, Volibear (if building as a bruiser of course) are all rewarded more heavily for items like BotRK early than Hydra. A Nocturne and a Shyvana get benefit from 30 AD from an Elder Lizard, sure, but not nearly as much as more dedicated on hit items like a Feral Flare or a Devourer, that also have incredible synergy with their kit. By increasing Shyvana's attack speed she gets Qs faster, and can keep her W up longer, easier. By increasing Nocturne's attack speed you can get his passive cleaves up faster, which provide him jungle sustain and extra burst against enemy champions. By increasing Volibear's attack speed you get his Frenzy stacks faster, and you get more procs during his short ult duration. Loathe as I am to bring him up, even champions like Yi and Warwick get more benefit from mixing damage with attack speed than just straight damage, as it allows them to use their passive effects faster and more often.

Jungling champions who are more auto attack reliant, for a long time, did not have a damage item that properly complimented their kits or what they're focused towards. They had to spend gold above and beyond to get the basic stats that they needed compared to caster based AD junglers.

In fact, the on hit items like Feral Flare and Devourer haven't really increased the power of current top junglers. Aside from Warwick skyrocketing to the top because of the INSANE synergy between his ult, Skirmisher, and Devourer (which is honestly just as much about how much free sustain he gets as his ability to press R and delete someone) most of the meta has remained in about the same place from where it was in season 4, aside from the tanks not getting a lot of love. If anyone it's tanks who need the love, not AP champs. I can still take Diana into the jungle and she actually sustains better than most of my other junglers if I put some early points in her shield, and I still go ham in the mid and late game. But if I try to take Volibear or Rammus? Not so much.

Consider for a moment that for less than the cost of a Needlessly Large Rod (1600g) AP junglers can get 80 AP, the same amount as a Rod gives, along with 10% CDR, usually one of the more important stats for any AP champ, all for only 1500g. They've actually got one of the most cost efficient jungle items short of a late game Devourer, only because Devourer stacks infinitely and so has an ever increasing cost efficiency. AP champs have the basic things that they need: AP and CDR, for cheap, with Blasting Smite giving them a healthy chunk of sustain while stunning monsters for 1.5 seconds, usually more than enough for a mid to late game AP jungler, which is when most of them become relevant anyways, to blow a camp up with spells. They're fine where they are, aside from their shaky defenses and that's mostly because the new jungle is pretty harsh to everyone that isn't Warwick.

What Is Smite1 votes

"new jungle is pretty harsh to everyone that isn't Warwick" Aatrox and XinZhao say hi from the new jungle with challenging smite and devourer

Cale0171 votes

I said a lot more than just Warwick, but good point. I actually love Aatrox but his ganks can be pretty eh if not followed up on properly, so I haven't tested him out in this new jungle. He's just fun to play personally.

AP Xin tho. Heals and spears. I'm not a big fan of using him as a jungler though, perhaps because I just find that he doesn't particularly fit my style well. I'm not saying he's bad by any means, just that he's not someone I think of often.

What Is Smite1 votes

Well with Aatrox you actually have the buffs that you need from the new jungle to actually have influence over a game, even if you get crap follow up you should have changed to Blood Price before the gank so you get an extra 200% of AA damage on your target. IE and auto from aatrox does 80 damage flat and his blood price adds on about 160 more to it at the cost of 5% of your HP and you can freely swap between blood thirst and blood price during the kill add on your passive and you can tower dive really early on compared to nearly every other jungler barring Zac

Cale0171 votes

[{quoted}](name=What Is Smite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bxcfdx4m,comment-id=0001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-29T18:20:35.734+0000)

Well with Aatrox you actually have the buffs that you need from the new jungle to actually have influence over a game, even if you get crap follow up you should have changed to Blood Price before the gank so you get an extra 200% of AA damage on your target. IE and auto from aatrox does 80 damage flat and his blood price adds on about 160 more to it at the cost of 5% of your HP and you can freely swap between blood thirst and blood price during the kill add on your passive and you can tower dive really early on compared to nearly every other jungler barring Zac

Too bad Aatrox actually does need a solid follow up to get enough autos in to proc Blood Price. His ganks are weak unless the enemy is hopelessly overextended, and even then unless he has his ult available for the increased attack range he has issues sticking to targets with how meh his slow is. A double damage auto attack isn't going to be enough to secure a kill for you, or your laner.

What Is Smite1 votes

let me ask you then what your skilling order is because if you might be putting in points the way I level up my skills as aatrox then you shouldn't have a problem securing kills even with mediocre follow up

Cale0171 votes

[{quoted}](name=What Is Smite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bxcfdx4m,comment-id=000100000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-08T05:28:58.490+0000)

let me ask you then what your skilling order is because if you might be putting in points the way I level up my skills as aatrox then you shouldn't have a problem securing kills even with mediocre follow up

Usually W>E>Q. I need the increased sustain on my W to survive in the jungle at halfway decent amounts of health. That's the one problem I have with him more than anything else. If I weren't always sitting at about 50% health I might be able to feel a bit safer going into ganks but as it stands he's just too damned squishy to risk a gank with anything less than 80% health until you get fed and have a lot of lifesteal.

What Is Smite1 votes

go E>W>Q, W is a one point wonder as long as you keep your blood well full you can get enough procs to keep you around 70%. The jungle path I take is Krugs>Buff>Wolves>Buff>Gromp>Raptors (kill small ones first to keep 10% more hp than when just focusing the big one). My Masteries I run are 21/9/0 for the extra damage that help on the clear and when ganking, since the slow on E scales the more points you put in it it's worth it to maximize it over W since each point in W is only +5 more health returned per proc which makes it a horrible idea to max it first since when you gank you want to be on Blood Price then when you get down to about 30-40% swap to Blood Thirst to maintain a health return 2x of what it would be if you were above 50% health. Anyways the key to Aatrox Jungle is using the first camp to max out your Blood Well then keeping it up with E after you get it. I distribute my first 3 points in the order of W>E>Q so that I can maximize damage output in the jungle without hurting myself too much since E has a 14s cooldown and by the time it's up for a 2nd cast on a camp you have regained the 5% health cost and a bit more. Aatrox is not really squishy since you have the passive Blood Well you have a Free GA over every other player in the game to start off, if you have to trade it for a kill then it's worth it trading a passive that has a cd equal to flash for 300g, it also gives the enemy a false sense of security giving them the assumption that you will not gank another lane until your passive is up again so they will push the lanes which allows you to pick-up more kills for your team or yourself. Aatrox's lvl 6 combo can be very deadly if you manage to get it down perfectly and it will take about 1/2-1/4 of the enemies life bar (depending how far the game has gone), start in Blood Price>Q>R>E>aa and use actives like BotRK and Randuin's Omen if you have them they are great chasing/disengage tools. A tip I also have is that Aatrox's Blood Price proc has a faster animation than his Blood Thirst Animation meaning you can proc Blood Price much faster/more than Blood Thirst while chasing an enemy champion. If you still think that Aatrox has a hard time in the new Jungle then you should watch some high elo Aatrox players and try to pick-up a trick or two to help learn him, I can say he does not have an easy learning curve but once you get pass it then you can pretty much carry a team through early and mid game (given your team co-operates with you)

wolfax5 votes

The problem with hybrid champions was they were never really balanced. There was the correct way to build them, and anything else was gimping yourself. Of course the correct way would be nerfed though, at which point the next build was the go to build.

BallisticMouse3 votes

This is true about all champions though, at least to a very high extent. Like if you play Vladimir, yeah he is AP but if you don't build spellvamp or a Spirit Visage you're gimping yourself as to what he can really do. His sustain and survive is a high reason to play him, dont build around it and...well even if you do well you could be building in a better way.

deadlychuck3 votes

This this is what we need more of! Champions who* DON'T HAVE A CORRECT WAY TO BUILD THEM*

i can't say this enough, having a best way, but no "correct" way to build a champion means that they are balanced very well, because depending on the situation they have multiple play styles and builds. This is what makes them flexible not overloaded kits.

Looking at you guys LeeSin Thresh Gnar Lulu

giraffiti03 votes

Uhh thresh and lulu maybe .. But to be honest ap thresh is a weak as fuck lane and AD thresh is silly because all of your skills take time away from auto attacking (dealing damage) though it is fun. Lulu can be Ad or Ap and be fun either way.. You will never see ap lee sin and ap gnar isn't very good (one ap scaling skill, may as well go AP Ashe). Basically lee and gnar are either tanky or build full damage and that can be said of any champion

PaperMache72 votes

Honestly you used to be able to play top lane Thresh (I used to do it a lot), but they nerfed a ton of things on Thresh that had very minor effects on his as a support, but big consequences on his other styles of play.

deadlychuck2 votes

I'm not saying that they are all viable as AP or AD, i'm saying their kits have far above the average utility that's given to most champions. No other champions has 3 skills which move champions besides thresh and lee sin. Lulu just has everything short of an actual stun in terms of CC and Gnar is simply able to do everything, i'll be it depending on if he is mega or mini.

BallisticMouse3 votes

{quoted}

Obviously this is a personal opinion because the majority of the community just enjoys playing the most power champion they can and feeling like and unstoppable bad ass, even if their skill isn't the reason they are playing so well.

This is the main reason I can't enjoy this game anymore. Me and my pals will go into a 3v3 playing champions we enjoy, whether it be the visuals, lore or play style, and normally just end up getting stomped by Fizz/Yasuo/RekSai/Syndra type teams.

Even in 'fun game modes' you just can't have fun.

chumbler4 votes

{quoted}

This is the main reason I can't enjoy this game anymore. Me and my pals will go into a 3v3 playing champions we enjoy, whether it be the visuals, lore or play style, and normally just end up getting stomped by Fizz/Yasuo/RekSai/Syndra type teams.

Even in 'fun game modes' you just can't have fun.

Welcome to Riot either having no clue what they're doing or not actually caring and just working purely from a mercenary, profit motive. Why try to balance or develop a deep and interesting game when you can just rotate your top tiers to drive champion sales?

qetzel9 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

I saw this video posted here a few months ago. I think it is pertinent to this conversation.

deadlychuck3 votes

The unfortunate part about this is this video is that it's 2.5 years old. A lot has changes since then and i'd say not for the better :\

great link though +1

qetzel2 votes

I still think it applies. They gave Jax and Yasuo a lot of time at the top before nerfing them. Soraka and Lulu got a few patches in the limelight before Riot nerfed them. Lucian and Tristana were also given some time. These are just some examples.

They did bash feral flare with a hammer quickly and relentlessly but really, how do you counter such an item? They also hurt Alistair top and Zilean mid were also put down inhumanely, but that is because their damage lacked any counter-play.

deadlychuck5 votes

That's the thing though, all of the top champions are being decided by riot, rather than the community. That's one thing i noticed in this video, no where did it say that the developers adjusted where the characters of the game fell in terms of the jedi curve, but it did say that the players were finding ways to beat them, even if it's a specific counter pick.

Sure, if something lacks counter play it should be nerfed (which i'd say yasuo did before the nerfs too), but just because something is on top doesn't mean that it is should be the devs which knock them down a peg, it should be the players using the game mechanics to develop strategies to do so. The game should cater crowd sourced "balance" rather than invoke it's own.

qetzel2 votes

The video (and I'm too lazy to find the actual quote) that the game developer gives the players some time to learn how to play against the champion and counter it. If the players cannot, the developer then starts changing things. I think that my examples fit these.

I agree with you that the players should find new strategies and use interesting mechanics so that the game balances itself, but if this is impossible, as in the case of Alistair and Zilean, probably lane Soraka too, or very difficult in the case of Yasuo, Jax and Tristana then I believe that some divine intervention is needed.

Raptamei4 votes

{quoted}

Sure, if something lacks counter play it should be nerfed (which i'd say yasuo did before the nerfs too), but just because something is on top doesn't mean that it is should be the devs which knock them down a peg, it should be the players using the game mechanics to develop strategies to do so. The game should cater crowd sourced "balance" rather than invoke it's own.

That's how Dota works but it isn't valid in LoL. There are few counters in the game by design. At best you can counter pick (if you own the counter), at worst the only counter is to do the same thing but better.

Dota has much more specialised characters, so you can counter with a different strategy.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

rotfl, that's a nice way to say the balance is not that good xD

no i don't want to rotate from Yasuo to Lulu to Brand to who the fuck he is, i want to play champs that i find fun without starting wih an handicap because they are not properly balanced

DWT123452 votes

When you play with a Rioter in champ select

Riot: Want smite? Me: Nah, im going smiteless jungle Riot: What? You cant do that! your jungle! Take smite! Me: I told you, i dont want it, im taking teleport instead for th- Riot: TAKE SMITE GOD DAMMIT! Me: Nope. Riot: FINE THAN! We're gonna make items that change and buff smite so much, now you HAVE to take smite! Me: wtf man? Fine, fine, i'll take smite. Riot: YES! VICTORY IS MINE! Turns to bot lane Riot: HEY! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Adc: Uhhh... Supp: We're gonna play the gam- Riot: Where is your adc? Adc: Me, im going adc urgot- Riot: URGOT?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Riot: You can't take urgot! He isint in the meta! Adc: But- Riot: NO! I'M RIGHT! And im always gonna be right! NOW SHADDUP! turns to mid Riot: AND YOU! WHY ARE YOU GOING CASSIOPIA? Mid: Well, i've played her since she came out, and im great with he- Riot: Oh yeah? OH YEAH? Well... WHAT IF I NERF HER TO HELL! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Mid: WTF? She sucks now! Riot: Oh, you'll get over it. Just play as zed and you'll be fine. Riot: to whole team Man, you guys suck. I'm playing Gnar, like a good pearson, and im gonna be the onlyone who wins lane. game starts Riot: [All] GG, ff at 20, my team is choosing suckey champs. Riot: Alright guys, if you dont ff at 20, im gonna ban you all. Riot: WTF? Our mid has been afk for 2 minutes! mid recconects Mid: Sorry guys, the firewall bug still hasent been fixed and- Riot: STFU SCRUB! YOU DONT DESERVE TO LIVE! INSTABAN! Riot: God you guys suck. Riot: Uh, guys, are you still there? Riot: Hello? Riot: WTF? U MUTED ME? YOU FREAKING **************!

Narasimha2 votes

I have yet to see a single case when smiteless jungle was good. Also, Urgot is an adc much in the same vein as Quinn is. Marksmen made for a different lane, and in Urgot's time, a different meta altogether.

PoisonedPeace1 votes

Yes and that meta will never change because riot will continue to enforce it. Your favorite champs will become obsolete with each high mobility champ that comes out. Play making champs make for exciting esports. Exciting esports=$$$

Narasimha3 votes

Favorite champ -> Mordekaiser But I also know that new doesn't automatically make old obsolete. Yasuo and Rek'sai. Two indisputably mobile champions. Guess who totally wrecks them? That's right, Mordekaiser . This guy. And you guys always talk like making exciting plays is bad. Or would you prefer if every ADC were like Caitlyn, every bruiser like Olaf, and every mid like Ziggs?

PoisonedPeace1 votes

Yep. You wreck the living shit out of Yas, but then you get wrecked in teamfights because morde is a joke. In general new champs>old

Narasimha1 votes

you get wrecked in teamfights

Never played Morde, have you mate? Morde doesn't get 'wrecked' unless he's being focused explicitly.

PoisonedPeace1 votes

Why doesn't morde get spammed in pro play to counter meta mobility picks?

Narasimha1 votes

For pro plays, its because he does get focused. A good Morde is worth more than an adc because he can make any teamfight a 4v6. On the other hand, if he gets targetted, he won't have the time to pull off his tricks. For lower levels, its because of his skillcap. Its incredibly hard to use him without killing yourself in the process, and there are other champs that can do what he does for much easier.

FF12242 votes

The game is probably stale for you because you aren't trying to master champions, you're just trying to play them. If you set goals for yourself towards getting better with new champions and from game to game, then you have something to work towards.

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