Twisted Fate - In desperate need for a (small scale/gameplay only) rework

SaltyToplaneGoat··1 votes·443 views

... and that's not because he's toxic. Nope, actually from what I have seen he seems pretty balanced, if not UP, to me. But the discussion her is not if he is OP, UP, viable or not. I don't really care about it in that case

Just got my free skin, Underworld TF, and decided to give him a go in teambuilder. Of course I'm no real pro or specialist, but I'm neither blind nor stupid. Playing feels just so... I don't know. Slow? Boring? It's kinda the same as with Taric right now - although not that bad. Taric's entire theme is a mess, but I'Ll save that for another thread. Also he's currently worked on so...

Ok let's break it down: you have two abilities you actually use in combat. Both feel so slow and underwhelming that it's laughable. Sure, you can get some damage out. Some. If everything goes well. Most of his potential vanish somewhere as hidden power, but not in something you "feel" when playing him - lets just add to that that sustained AP dps doesn't really look good in the current meta (as long you need longer than an adc to shoot someone down you'll NEVER be viable as things seem to be right now).

Also, what kind of plays can you make as twisted fate? Throw an auto attack you can't miss anyway? Or throw my slow ass triple card wich feels even more underwhelming? The only actual combo: load a gold card, jumpo through the ult and then Q afterwards. The rest of that is hoping that you'll survive with auto attacks until you can Q or W again. OR hoping that your team cleans up after you jump in.

I do realize that most of his power budget goes into the ult - but you can only get the full potential with a good team backing you up, so you get the full strategic value. My opinion: as long as you aren't a CC machine or a dedicated support you're kit shouldn't make you this reliant on your teammates.

The biggest problem is the difference in theme and how it translates into gameplay. He's suppsed to go into the "Mysterious stage magican" theme - mostly because he's a genius gambler who suddenly got magic powers. A criminal - but not in the Jinx-kind of way if you get what I mean. Honestly I love his theme, but right now it's executed horribly - well mostly because TF is a really old champ and back then Riot had still a lot to learn about Design.

So we got to the basic mix: stage magic (including card tricks) and shady tricks. Now, there's gotta be SOMETHING we can get out of this than this rather boring kit we have currently for him.

But I haven't made this post only to complain, I also got some ideas myself. The basic thoughts for this were:

1.) Get rid of that passive only E. Vi can have it because it synergizes well with her other abilities and she's an auto-attack champ anyway. Gnar has a total acess to six active abilities, so his passives are fine too. But on TF? Nope, get rid of that! Free attack speed is a horrible freestat and there are enough ways to compensate him for it. The stacking mechanic... well, if needed you can pack this in as effect somwhere else but it's just too clunky to use in my eyes.

2.) The ult: sorry folks, but it simply drains WAY too much of his possible power budget. Right now as it is it can be scrapped and be replaced with something that might be actually usefull while trading/duelling. Since his teleporting powers are actually canon I would be against removing the mechanic, but I would change it: Multiple teleports in a limited area. Imagine it like a magican setting the stage: his ult creates a wide AOE radius that allows him to teleport freely everywhere inside this "stage", recastable multiple times, but the teleport itself also takes a SHORT channel.

How this ties together with damage or other skills... I don't know, it's just a concept ^^ But aomehow THAT sound way more awesome than the ult he has now - and would be actually usefull in combat.

3.) The passive. Well. Gold. Sure, passive abilities don't need that much impact but this is like... he gets rewarded for CSing. A bit more than others. Somehow thats... lame.

My idea: since he's a gambler and trickster, why don't we have a passive that can steal tiny amouts of gold from the enemy champ? Not on every auto attack of course - but that alone would make him quite unique. Maybe we can put the staking mechanic from his current E on it and whenever you hit a enemy champ you steal an amout based on the number of stacks (can't affect the same enemy within X seconds, so you'll try to hit maximum stacks as much as possible - something that won't be easy if you have to CS at the same time AND the enemy is ranged. Also Tf's attack range is kinda meh anyways.).

4.)The Q: I honestly love the idea of throwing cards as a weapon. But have you guys ever thrown a card? That thing is FAST - and it has to be, especially when it's supposed to hurt. How about making it an ability that doesn't shoot 3 slow cards at once but one that throws 3 fast cards, but one after another, similiar to the irelia ult. Then you actually get the feeling of "throwing" cards...

5.) The W. No idea what to do with the three cards, but maybe I can come up with something later. Or you guys can think of something...

6.) We need a new, active ability to fill in as the new E. Now what could it be? More cards? Something else? Maybe something that goes more into the "magic trick" corner. How about a "curtain of cards" that works like a wind wall, but denies vision? This would give it the "now you see me, now you don't" magican kind of vibe. Of course it only gets a short duration, a tiny time window for the magican to prepare his next great trick - or just teleport out of it with the ult while making others think he's still there...

Especially on that new ability there is a lot of potential to get. So guys, what do you think?

7 Comments

maikokk1 votes

i like a lot of your ideas. leave his passive alone tho :O GOOLLLLD

if he were stealing gold there is no way riot would let him make as much money as he does now.

and to fill in the blanks with the W. this part is fine as is, and would work well with the changes you suggested. imagine activating your ult in a team fight, blue w-Q ing the back line, throwing down your vision shroud and ulting back to where you were as the team tried to focus you by runnign through your vision impairment, and spending your other q's from safety. team comes back to re-initiate and you have a gold card waiting

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

i like a lot of your ideas. leave his passive alone tho :O GOOLLLLD

if he were stealing gold there is no way riot would let him make as much money as he does now.

and to fill in the blanks with the W. this part is fine as is, and would work well with the changes you suggested. imagine activating your ult in a team fight, blue w-Q ing the back line, throwing down your vision shroud and ulting back to where you were as the team tried to focus you by runnign through your vision impairment, and spending your other q's from safety. team comes back to re-initiate and you have a gold card waiting

Ahhh the guy gets it! :D

Actually I propose making it into a "stealing passive". Yes he would get less gold and it would make it less powerful, but then they could move more power to the active parts of his kit. The parts that are supposed to hit hard! Then playing also makes more fun ^^

Raise Dongrs1 votes

Well the point of TF is to get $$$$$$$$ until end game where he can 2 shot your poor babbey adc with W-Q

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raise Dongrs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwy7xTN1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-12T13:37:13.238+0000)

Well the point of TF is to get $$$$$$$$ until end game where he can 2 shot your poor babbey adc with W-Q

Let me tell you something: this is neither really fun for the adc OR the Tf player. Also this is the prime example of bad design. it's boring for the adc who can't do shit against it AND it's boring for the TF player who has to wait 40 minutes of self-precieved uselessnes to get into lategame only to make a combo so braindead one would be ashamed for feeling proud for it.

How about we change his point from being a gold digger to actually being awesome?

ravenswolfy1 votes

Think TF is perfectly fine and only thing that needs to be changed is a little more base health. (although I want cdr back on E again)

His Passive is awesome. Even if you're slightly behind in cs, you can manage to have more gold than your lane opponent (assuming no kills/assists gained). Having 1-6 extra gold per minion is outstanding, especially if you manage to have good csing mechanics.

His Q - Wild Card is great damage and poke. The damage doesn't fall off as it passes through champs/minions. Long range and its with the 3 directions, If you're good with angles you can hit multiple areas to do your damage.

His W - Pick A Card is probably where most of the skill is. Able to quickly play this minigame and select the right card for the right moment can be a game changer. Able to do back2back stuns, snares or mana generation. Its incredible good for wave clearing combos or for ganks with your ultimate.

His E - Stacked Deck is probably the most misunderstood. Its super good for lane harassment vs melee-mid range casters. The added attack speed helps with auto attacking faster, getting those last hits in and once you get high enough AP you really start laying the hurt with the proc goes off. The stacked deck can proc with your W for combined damage.

His R - Destiny has amazing gank potential. You can just take a few steps from mid lane and gank any lane with a stun card ready. You can also bait out a lot of spells/abilities by ulting into the middle of a team as initiation and then using item 3157. With item 3100 you can be a backdoor monster. with your wave clear you can push the waves really fast. Get to the tower, and throw a Q out for the sheen effect then auto, wait a second then do W for the sheen effect then auto again. Then if you think you're about to get ganked or see enemies coming, just ult away.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

{quoted}

Think TF is perfectly fine and only thing that needs to be changed is a little more base health. (although I want cdr back on E again)

His Passive is awesome. Even if you're slightly behind in cs, you can manage to have more gold than your lane opponent (assuming no kills/assists gained). Having 1-6 extra gold per minion is outstanding, especially if you manage to have good csing mechanics.

His Q - Wild Card is great damage and poke. The damage doesn't fall off as it passes through champs/minions. Long range and its with the 3 directions, If you're good with angles you can hit multiple areas to do your damage.

His W - Pick A Card is probably where most of the skill is. Able to quickly play this minigame and select the right card for the right moment can be a game changer. Able to do back2back stuns, snares or mana generation. Its incredible good for wave clearing combos or for ganks with your ultimate.

His E - Stacked Deck is probably the most misunderstood. Its super good for lane harassment vs melee-mid range casters. The added attack speed helps with auto attacking faster, getting those last hits in and once you get high enough AP you really start laying the hurt with the proc goes off. The stacked deck can proc with your W for combined damage.

His R - Destiny has amazing gank potential. You can just take a few steps from mid lane and gank any lane with a stun card ready. You can also bait out a lot of spells/abilities by ulting into the middle of a team as initiation and then using item 3157. With item 3100 you can be a backdoor monster. with your wave clear you can push the waves really fast. Get to the tower, and throw a Q out for the sheen effect then auto, wait a second then do W for the sheen effect then auto again. Then if you think you're about to get ganked or see enemies coming, just ult away.

I never said that TF was in a particulary bad state in terms of balance or gameplay strenght. Sorry, but after several years of playing this game I don't think I need someone to tell me how his abilities work ^^

I know how it works - and I also know that this kit is the biggest waste of potential I have ever seen. His kit is downright BORING. It might be effiecient for doing certain things, but it doesn't change the fact that it's simply not appealing to me as a player.

Sure his passive is usefull - but at the same time it's the lamest thing ever. What does it contribute to my gameplay pattern? That I CS? Oh my, as if I wasn't doing that already.

The Q: long range, but also slow as fuck and not really hard to dodge. Also it just FEELS boring. I'm using this skill to cut my enemy up with cards! Why does it feel like I'm throwing a crippled hoverboard at him?

His W is a unique and actually not that bad skill - maybe tweak some of the effects, but as the basic skill I would have no problem with it remaining in his kit.

The E is just... it takes up an ability slot for something that's rather underwhelming. Sure, it has it's use, but we could easily replace that with something more awesome and give him some actual strenght.

The R: I think i said much about this already. This skill is strong. REALLY STRONG. Back in the day it was even stronger without the range restriction... But it's too strong to leave any room in his kit for actually good stuff. Giving him an utility spell this powerful MUST result in other parts of his kit being toned down - or he would be OP. Also it doesn't really have that "ultimate"-feel If you know what I mean. One little jump? Oh comeon. Isn't that supposed to be the most awesome spell? Sure the strategical potential is huge, but I'd rather have a tool to use in the direct interaction with other players when dueling/trading.

I don't understand why people are like "NOOO DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING" when I'm not even proposing nerfs, but a rework that makes him more awesome to play. Isn't that supposed to be a good thing?

ravenswolfy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwy7xTN1,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-12T15:20:14.574+0000)

I never said that TF was in a particulary bad state in terms of balance or gameplay strenght. Sorry, but after several years of playing this game I don't think I need someone to tell me how his abilities work ^^

I know how it works - and I also know that this kit is the biggest waste of potential I have ever seen. His kit is downright BORING. It might be effiecient for doing certain things, but it doesn't change the fact that it's simply not appealing to me as a player.

Sure his passive is usefull - but at the same time it's the lamest thing ever. What does it contribute to my gameplay pattern? That I CS? Oh my, as if I wasn't doing that already.

The Q: long range, but also slow as fuck and not really hard to dodge. Also it just FEELS boring. I'm using this skill to cut my enemy up with cards! Why does it feel like I'm throwing a crippled hoverboard at him?

His W is a unique and actually not that bad skill - maybe tweak some of the effects, but as the basic skill I would have no problem with it remaining in his kit.

The E is just... it takes up an ability slot for something that's rather underwhelming. Sure, it has it's use, but we could easily replace that with something more awesome and give him some actual strenght.

The R: I think i said much about this already. This skill is strong. REALLY STRONG. Back in the day it was even stronger without the range restriction... But it's too strong to leave any room in his kit for actually good stuff. Giving him an utility spell this powerful MUST result in other parts of his kit being toned down - or he would be OP. Also it doesn't really have that "ultimate"-feel If you know what I mean. One little jump? Oh comeon. Isn't that supposed to be the most awesome spell? Sure the strategical potential is huge, but I'd rather have a tool to use in the direct interaction with other players when dueling/trading.

I don't understand why people are like "NOOO DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING" when I'm not even proposing nerfs, but a rework that makes him more awesome to play. Isn't that supposed to be a good thing?

He has a ton of strength. He isn't the champ that goes around murdering entire teams like Akali unless you get super fed early on. He fits into that AP support psuedo carry role in that he offers multiple slows/stuns, a shit load of global pressure and a lot of poke. Sure his kit seems a little dull but its quite good if you know how to play him. You can't just make assertions that he's under powered or he needs a rework after playing like 3 games on him.

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