If they had enough mana to clear AND gank. Unfortunately, without blue buff, they're lucky to do a full clear once. Can the Magnus enchantment please be buffed to make them viable the way Cinder did for tanks :s?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that thinks it's on par with Warrior right now.
Meep Man28 votes
is pretty strong as of now whenever I have seen him.
just needs straight buffs.
is actually pretty strong right now.
is Nidalee.
I consider him more of a Tank jungler and he benefits a lot from Cinderhulk.
is just totally confused about what she is, gameplay-wise and theme-wise.
A better Mage jungler item would be cool, but Im afraid it would throw Fiddlesticks, Nidalee, and maybe even Diana over the edge.
TonyTonyMordecai5 votesI think it's just the AP scaling/base numbers that make strong, not to mention Fiddle's utility combo and surprise ultimates (seriously, who wouldn't be caught off guard by that?).
If the AP Jungle item worked in favor of increased mana regen (while in combat or something like that, similar to Cinderhulk) it would help them with clearing and such. It's like Warrior and Devourer: it adds so much to the champion's damage output (
) without taking anything away from their final build path, that it allows them to be on par with everyone else once they reach their full build.
(I put Teemo in there just because I've done Teemo Jungle On-Hit damage, and I reached 340 added magic damage on-hit once I got to full build)
SpecterVonBaren9 votesI think what some people have a problem with (Or at least myself) is that most AD champions can jungle, not saying you would want them to jungle due to how their kits work with ganking or possible squishiness, but most of them can at least do it. Most mages on the other hand, simply can't jungle just because they're mages.
Champion Skin4 votesWell that has a lot to do with how auto attacks work though...
Shield Villain2 votesMages aren't very mobile, so they would struggle to even get from one camp to another, quickly. Sure there are some less mobile junglers, but those typically end up needing to gank a lot. Like Nautilus. His kit is pretty good at making him stick to someone. Fiddle sticks also relies on CC to get a good gank. Fear them away from their turret, silence them after, use your drain and hope your laner capitalizes on it. Elise has a stun, and can gap close pretty well. Evelynn has her invisibility and slows. Amumu can bandage wrap you. Diana has gap closers too, being an AP assassin.
Honestly, I just think Mages aren't meant to jungle, unless they're designed to or have tremendous sustain. Which most don't Vlad probably could, Malzahar use to but now isn't very viable. I use to see Nami jungle too, and other picks like that. But that was back when we had more jungle item varieties.
WolfBV4 votes : "It's not a phase dad! This is who I am now!"
slippykitten10 votesOr just keep your blue, since you know, that's the idea of strategy.
I think the idea of giving everyone options with no choices for the team to make is terrible. Your team should have to decide who needs blue more - strategy.
Hupsis7 votesMage junglers need to get buffs/changes to be viable. The magus enhancement is only used by few junglers currently such as Diana, Nidalee and Elise and could certainly be useful on others if their kits allowed them to jungle.
Zyra should be able to jungle. Her E could root jungle monsters for longer. Karma could be turned into a viable jungler easily with a mantra W change. Ryze would be interesting as a jungler (perhaps after his rework). Cassiopeia could potentially be turned into a jungler. Heimerdinger with turrets. Malzahar with his voidlings. Vladimir could also be a jungler if his Q got reduced cd against jungle monsters. Morgana with increased Q duration on jungle monsters. etc. (these are just examples)
More variety to the jungle!
Riot already made Nidalee a viable jungler. Why not allow other mages as well?
Cosmic Warper2 votesMage junglers need to get buffs/changes to be viable. The magus enhancement is only used by few junglers currently such as Diana, Nidalee and Elise and could certainly be useful on others if their kits allowed them to jungle.
Zyra should be able to jungle. Her E could root jungle monsters for longer. Karma could be turned into a viable jungler easily with a mantra W change. Ryze would be interesting as a jungler (perhaps after his rework). Cassiopeia could potentially be turned into a jungler. Heimerdinger with turrets. Malzahar with his voidlings. Vladimir could also be a jungler if his Q got reduced cd against jungle monsters. Morgana with increased Q duration on jungle monsters. etc. (these are just examples)
More variety to the jungle!
Riot already made Nidalee a viable jungler. Why not allow other mages as well?
None of those other than maybe karma would be played. Tank junglers and bruisers either out damage them or out-duel and out-cc them. Zyra definitely should NOT work in the jungle. Ryze wont work because he needs a ton of gold to get going, cassio needs time to scale up, heimer maybe, ad malz jungle is already usable, vlad should never be a jungler (no cc and bad dueling).
Skia Asteri2 votesMorgana with increased Q duration on jungle monsters.
Morgana works just fine as far as clearing goes after hitting level two, and with a bit of practice that can go smoothly even without a leash. Her exceptionally large mana pool goes very well with 
.
HardyHarbinger2 votesZyra Jungle would honestly be really cool imo. She has the kit for it, maybe buffs against monsters, but that idea is the best I've heard in a while.
Angry Monster5 votesI think you need to be carfeul with the word buff. Cinderhulk gave up alot of power to do what it does. It gave up starting health, early gank power(early mobas), and CDR. Alot of tanks can not build Cinderhulk into full potiental if they grab CDR(since health and cdr does not seem to go into tank items).
Cinderhulk was a power shift with a small buff(again a lot was given up). I do not think the AP item is in such a bad place as the health one was. You need a power shift not a buff.
If it had merellos mana regen 10 less AP but kept all of its CDR i think it would be viable. IT would end up as a chalice/merello equilvant item.
AtheosisX3 votesJuggernaut sucked. No power was given up.
Angry Monster2 votesNo it did not do what tanks needed for the jungle. That does not mean it sucked as an item. It had alot of things wanted
AtheosisX2 votesActually that's exactly what it means. It was designed for tanky junglers but did not do what they needed. That makes it bad. Tenacity, CDR, and some HP are nice, but they don't matter if the item doesn't function in its intended role.
Angry Monster2 votesit would of been a bad item if it had only health, But it didnt. If it would of existed in the season 4 jungle i think it would of been a pretty good item. It was poorly designed for a season 5 JUNGLE item.
Tanks have been under-tuned for a while now. Cause of this a good item could not function as intended. Riot instead of fixing the under power tanks changed the item making it pretty offensive. This is why sej suddenly went OP when other tanks did not. She actually was buffed earlier this season while others were sitting on the sidelines.
I would not mind seeing the jugernaut be reworked into a new tank item (non jungle) I think it had a purpose (health and CDR) it was just given to a broken class in an environment that surviving was not enough.
To say it was bad is like a AP MID saying static shiv is bad. No its just not useful to you. The item itself is good.
AtheosisX2 votesThe difference is that unlike Static Shiv, it wasn't good for anyone.
Angry Monster2 votesIt was not good as a first item. It actually worked on some brusier junglers as a 2nd item after a triforce rush. I did this with hec and reksi. When I need some damage but still had to be the tank.
AtheosisX1 votesJungle items are supposed to be rushed though, so again not good. I mean the enemy jungler is getting a power spike so much earlier than you if you are rushing Triforce and they are rushing Devourer or Warrior.
Angry Monster3 votesthat is false. First upgrade should be rushed. You do not gain more gold for 2nd transformation. You can wait and rush another item if you desire without hurting you. You lose no functionality of the smite by doing this.
A couple of Solo q challenger players do this. I know for a fact Nightblu does this when he wants to power farm. He just sits on purple til triforce is completed.
It is a very selfish way to play but it is a valid choice. And when in solo Q sometimes selfish is the answer. I know it is when i play with my friends and i want to tank carry.
SmknWdl4 votesI think that jungle mages should currently be used when you have an manaless mid... that way you keep blue, and it doesnt affect them.
Haunt4 votesThe difference between it is that tanks are SUPPOSED to be top laners/junglers.
Mages belong in top/mid/sometimes support. Making it so Orianna can jungle will just be pointless.
If they had enough mana to clear AND gank. Unfortunately, without blue buff, they're lucky to do a full clear once.
That is because they're not supposed to be junglers. Champions are made for specific roles, for specific reasons. Syndra was not made to pick up jungle camps and throw them at laners for ganks with her stun. She was made for mid lane. Anivia and Viktor should be in mid where they can harass an opponent and farm, not sitting in jungle and ganking. It's just not right.
I just don't see a reason for this change. Mages shouldn't be in the jungle, it just simply isn't how it's supposed to go. They did it for tanks because they're SUPPOSED to be in the jungle (or top lane).
I'm not against AP junglers like Diana for example, but real mages like Ori/Viktor/Anivia belong where they were made to be. Not some dumb gimmick jungler. The item is DESIGNED for AP champions, not mages. There is a difference.
Troy2426213 votesA lot of AP junglers that were designed for the jungle are just bad at it right now.
Also, a LOT of champions weren't designed to jungle but do it. Gragas, Cho'Gath, Fiora, Yi, Nunu, Pantheon, Shen, Sion, Yorick, Trundle, etc. and experimenting isn't a bad thing. Saying "Mages don't belong in the jungle," is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we have to nerf Nidalee to get to that opportunity:
Haunt5 votesA lot of AP junglers that were designed for the jungle are just bad at it right now.
Also, a LOT of champions weren't designed to jungle but do it. Gragas, Cho'Gath, Fiora, Yi, Nunu, Pantheon, Shen, Sion, Yorick, Trundle, etc. and experimenting isn't a bad thing. Saying "Mages don't belong in the jungle," is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we have to nerf Nidalee to get to that opportunity:
Nidalee is an assassin, not a mage. AP Champion =/= mage.
None of the champions you have listed are 100% all mage except maybe gragas (sort of).
That's what I'm talking about. I'm all for breaking the meta, and doing things that are cool and different but there is no argument here. The difference is that there was almost never a time where mages have gone to the jungle, unlike tanks. Tank junglers were already a thing, they were just bad. Now they're good. Mage junglers never existed.
It's like if I said, "Hey, Talon should be a ranged champion. Why? Because other champions have range! Why shouldn't I!? I want to harass melee champions with auto attacks too! "Just because a class (IE: Tanks) have a jungle item specifically to let them jungle, doesn't mean it's a good idea to just go around making every champion in the game a jungler.
How about we buff all of the mages's starting AD? I want to be able to do ADC Syndra, but my autos just don't do as much as other ADCs so I end up losing. I should be able to play what I want! I mean, Syndra was designed as an AP mid lane mage, but I wanna see her played as an ADC!
Troy2426213 votesThat is splitting hairs. That's like arguing LeBlanc isn't a mage, she's an assassin.
Also, your second comparison is horribly logically fallacious. They are completely unalike. You compared changing a champion so drastically it changes their identity entirely and breaking their power curve in the process to changing an item to be on-par with the AD equivalence.
None of them were intended to be mages. That was clear as day. The point was just because they don't jungle now doesn't mean they can't. If Magnus were as good as Warrior, we could actually experiment to see which ones would work.
THIS IS THE ARGUMENT I'M TIRED OF SEEING: "Oh you just want Orianna jungle," or some absurd strawman similar to that. No. I'm saying buff Magnus to be on par with Warriors so we can test which mages DO become viable.
Lastly, I'm not saying change mages into junglers. I'm saying make the mage jungler item (Ironically implying mages should be able to jungle simply by existing) on par with the ad equivalence to see who becomes a viable jungler. Once again, you misrepresented my argument to make it easier to attack.
AtheosisX3 votesVariety is good. Why would you argue against variety? There are quite a few unpopular mages that could make good junglers if the AP jungle item helped with mana. Brand would be a pretty good jungler for instance if he could clear and have enough mana to gank afterwards. Personally I think Magus should have a temporary 100% mana regen boost for 5 seconds after killing a monster, or something similar.
Paress4 votesGive Mana Leech on spells.
That's simple, rito.
Or just spellvamp.
Erockandroll3 votesThe thing is, blue buff is exactly what you need. Yet that means denying your mid laner blue, which I would not dare unless they absolutely don't need it.
For this reason, I feel like mage Junglers are niche. I usually don't pick a mage Jungle unless our team is severely lacking magic damage.
flibitydoo5 votesI build on , smite the blue for the 20% max mana restore, then give the kill to my mid laner so they can have blue (if they aren't zed/yasuo).
Although I do find clearing the rest of the jungle while blue is down heavily gated by mana issues.
Messaiga3 votesAll I think they should do with Magus is give it a unique passive that returns mana based on damage dealt to monsters. That way in the jungle you don't expend too much mana while farming.
Cosmic Warper3 votesMagus can only be buffed if nidalee is nerfed. If nidalee doesn't get nerfed and magus gets buffed then nidalee will become pick or ban ( as if she wasn't already most of the time).
AtheosisX2 votesShe needs a nerf anyway, so I don't see the issue.
1999 01 173 votesI don't think that is the biggest issue with mage junglers. most mages are locked out of the jungle because they have no sustain and weak ganks, so even if you gave them mana they still wouldn't be desirable picks
CrazedPorcupine3 votesHonestly, the only thing mages need for successful jungling is the Butcher passive from Spirit stone, But only the mana portion.
BlizzardMOBAsoon2 votesI think mana version of Cinderhulk would be great for Jungle Mages... 25% mana boost would help make it more viable.
KidSpectre22 votesI think mana version of Cinderhulk would be great for Jungle Mages... 25% mana boost would help make it more viable.
this 
, this 
, and this 
exist, therefore BAD IDEA.
WarlockLaw5 votesAm I the only one that assumed he meant regeneration and not maximum
4nth0l0gy3 votesNah. Doesn't help with early game at all, and that's when mage jungles really need mana.
LeeDark4 votesEarly game they have blue buff. If you are a mage jungler, why the hell are you giving up the first blue buff to a laner?
4nth0l0gy7 votesBy "early", I mean the first fifteen minutes or so. This is when a jungle mage is working on their first item (magus), so they can't build mana items.
LeeDark4 votesIf it takes you fifteen minutes to finish your jungle item enchant, your problem is not mana. You have a much bigger problem, and need to go back to custom games and practice basic jungling a LOT. Mage junglers can easily justify taking a second and even third blue buff. Hell, it's their jungle, they can justify taking ALL blues if they want. If they give it up to someone else, that's a PERK the laner gets, not something they were entitled to get. So, even if it does take you THAT long to start building regen, you STILL have blue buff if you want it.
MAGE JUNGLERS DO NOT NEED MANA. THAT IS NOT THE PRIMARY ISSUE THEY FACE.
4nth0l0gy3 votesIt's an estimate dude. Relax. And don't talk shit to me, it's unnecessary.
It's actually a fairly accurate estimate anyway: taking a sample of my last 6 jungle games, three of which were for ranked 5 placements: I got my jungle item 8-12 minutes in, then began my second item 11-16 minutes in. that second item is the one that would hypothetically help with mana, so 11-16 minutes is how long it might hypothetically take to buy a mana item for a mage jungler right now.
To be fair, I got fed in almost every one of those games, which skews the graph slightly toward earlier purchases, but 15 minutes is pretty accurate given that it was just a number I was ballparking.
I agree, laners are not entitled to blues. I take mine fairly often. That does not justify a jungler having mana problems without a blue, especially when you consider that it's up for (assuming perfect clear times), 2 of every 5 minutes.
What is the "primary issue" mage junglers face, in your opinion?
Silents4292 votesDo jungle mages really need to exist? Like not trying to troll I love Fiddlesticks, but we have an incredibly tiny pool of mage junglers (including mage junglers that could actually work in the jungle)
And honestly. The treatment for tanks was making their late game come sooner, while for a Tank this isn't that big of a deal, for mages well. Jesus, they would be insanely strong. But we DO have a blue buff and that is generally the point of it, So I don't know if the changes are actually needed.
Again, Not against mage junglers, just don't think they should have to big of a priority since they do work in the meta, and can lane unlike tanks where they had no real place.
Tentacle Love2 votesDo jungle mages really need to exist? Like not trying to troll I love Fiddlesticks, but we have an incredibly tiny pool of mage junglers (including mage junglers that could actually work in the jungle)
Well, I can't speak for everyone but the cinderhulk enchant did wonders for jungle diversity and games seem a LOT more interesting and fun now. If someone wants to try out Jungle Viktor, Annie, Syndra, Katarina, Ahri, or if they just want to do the AP versions of champions that already have viable tanky or ad builds, then I think they should be able to try it when it's viable.
I think it would be healthy for the game's design if you couldn't tell a character's build path from their icon before the game starts, but that's just me.
I'm hoping they continue to add more junglers to the pool. But I am probably blind to the consequences because 5.5 made that look really really good.
Silents4292 votesRight but balancing mages around the jungle is going to be a problem in itself, if you give them power they have a secure way of obtaining it now, if you give them less power you get what we have now.
iG Coke2 votesim handsome
CoolKnightST2 votesWhat if whe remove 10% CDR from Magus and give it some spellvamp?
BatteryDead1 votesLot's of people keep thinking about the main jungle mages that we have now. Why not make an item so that other mage champs could work in the jungle? 
1999 01 173 votesLot's of people keep thinking about the main jungle mages that we have now. Why not make an item so that other mage champs could work in the jungle?
not likely as none of those champions have durability or sustain to have any hope of jungling. the item would need to be so ridiculously overloaded with stats