Actual counterplay to Fizz's Q + R combo on immobile casters would be great

Yenn·Jun 25, 2018·21 votes·8,204 views

It's literally impossible to dodge this without some form of dash in your kit, and once the fish is on, it's further impossible to avoid the follow up that will 100% guaranteed kill you, regardless of what you're building. Even max range as an artillery mage (except maybe Xerath) is too close to avoid it.

It's pretty ridiculous that there's actually nothing I can do to survive a Fizz lane if I'm playing something like Ziggs or Vel'koz, short of praying that the Fizz isn't good at Fizz.

EDIT: If you don't think Fizz can kill you without a long range R, do the math on his damage. He absolutely can with just a Sheen at level 8, even if you're rushing a Negatron Cloak (which you can't build anything useful out of as an immobile caster).

38 Comments

NaymlissJun 26, 201813 votes

Don't mention fizz on the boards or on the league subreddit, they both have a disproportionately high amount of fizz mains, so you're never going to get your post noticed.

Fizz suffers from akali syndrome. Once they hit 6- you're hugging tower(sometimes even further back if they got a kill along the way). You have to itemize defensively early. You have to take a defensive summoner. You have to let them roam, because if you try to match you die. It's not fun to play against, but at least they're fun to play, right?

IfnethJun 26, 20185 votes

You can’t, but don’t panic.

As another poster mentioned, that ult will tickle you if fired point-blank, wasting much of Fizz’s power budget. Using Q to guarantee a point-blank R also wastes Q.

So, Fizz now has only two abilities left and is standing right beside you. Use your hard crowd control spell while walking toward your turret. He can’t dodge it without using E, Playful Trickster, wasting its damage.

If Fizz doesn’t dodge the hard crowd control spell, then hit him with everything you have. He’s done little damage and has only W to trade back with. Don’t let him get away with this foolishness; and if he’s low, then go all-in with summoner spells to kill him.

If Fizz does dodge the hard crowd control, then just drop your soft crowd control on where he lands while continuing to walk to your turret. Now he can’t catch you. His ult is down. His mobility is down. He’s CC’d. Hit him with your trading spell as you leave.

And it only gets worse for Fizz. While he can kill you with an all-in if you get low, he’ll need all his spells to do it and now lacks his ult for 100-0 potential. Bully him mercilessly for the next three waves. Every time he walks up for a minion, threaten him. Slow-push the wave into his turret to make him waste spells to waveclear or lose minions to the shots. If he uses Q to farm, then throw a spell at him to waste his E. If he uses Q while E is down, then try to land a hard CC for an all-in.

TranozeJun 26, 20184 votes

Actual counterplay to Fizz's Q + R combo already exist long long time ago. item 2420 item 3157 120 sec item cooldown to counter an ult has 100 secs cooldown, seem pretty much to me. Why would you even need to dodge it, this thing legit counter almost all assassin.

If you are pushing and die to an assassin has 2 ability to catch up, that on you, and if you are on turret, fizz legit has to waste his ult and his E (to dodge turret shoot after he Q you), and if you still die to a fizz with no Ult and no E, that also on you.

YennJun 26, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Actual counterplay to Fizz's Q + R combo already exist long long time ago. 120 sec item cooldown to counter an ult has 100 secs cooldown, seem pretty much to me. Why would you even need to dodge it, this thing legit counter almost all assassin.

Most AP carries can't rush Zhonya. If you do, you can wave clear 2-3 times and then you're completely out of mana.

Also, in most cases, you can Zhonya the fish and it doesn't matter; he doesn't need the fish for damage, he only needs it to keep you from escaping. If you Zhonya, you're just letting him sit up a full combo on you when you exit. It actually does nothing to stop him.

TranozeJun 26, 20184 votes

(HE Q-R you, as you said, ON YOUR TITLE, NOT R-E-Q you) So by walking to the range of a mele champion's dash range, ofcouse it your fold.

Yes that why item 2420 exist, only 600 gold (having it doesnt mean you dont have to dodge his ult, you still have to try to dodge it), if you got hit by everysingle ult he throw, that your fold, if he only need to keep you from escaping enemy team and have enough range to Q-Ult you (the combo you ask about), that your fold in first place for positioning wrong when you dont have your team and move in to his range. As i said before, the only way he can kill you with your item 3157 is that you are stay far away from your turrent (so he dont have to E the turret shoot), which is the sign of you pushing hard against an assassin , which is what you do wrong in the first place. The same happen when you play against Akali Zed , they have enough catch up ability to deal with you, so as immobile mage, you can shove lane, but dont constant push against them.

Starcraft243verJun 26, 20181 votes

Man, wtf, are you trying to bring logic to a balance thread ?

The point of this kind of thread is to be a form of catharsis by writting their rage out.

NoobTangerangJun 26, 20181 votes

he only needs it to keep you from escaping. If you Zhonya, you're just letting him sit up a full combo on you when you exit. It actually does nothing to stop him.

wat

Nausicäa Jun 26, 20184 votes

Its fucking absurd that Fizz a champion with 2 gap closers also has a super long range ultimate with BOTH a slow and a knockup. Like why the fuck does his ultimate need the CC attached to it as if his 2 fucking gap closers, one of which can already slow wasnt enough to secure the kill.

AmocJun 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bupKOr4y,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-06-26T07:44:53.548+0000)

Its fucking absurd that Fizz a champion with 2 gap closers also has a super long range ultimate with BOTH a slow and a knockup. Like why the fuck does his ultimate need the CC attached to it as if his 2 fucking gap closers, one of which can already slow wasnt enough to secure the kill.

Yeah. The main thing is that the fish needs to be harder to land. The margin of error on it is absurdly high.

Rıots Bad ClientJun 26, 20183 votes

I dont play much mid.

But... You want to be able to counter Fizz. Which you do. But, you wont be able to clear waves as often.

isn't it better safe than sorry.

summoner 12 item 3070 and item 2420 Looks good. and cheap.

or greed out and rush item 3285 and die often and let him get the snow ball lead AND farm advantage.

just dont use your abilities on the wave to push as often, Ping Mia often.

Fizz is great aginst mid lane Immobile champions it seems like its his only good match ups. if you see a fizz picked. just dont pick an immobile squishy champion.

koshkyraJun 26, 20183 votes

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qCfZRiJYQ

Just dodge the fish bro

heroikcJun 26, 20182 votes

If you let Fizz, an assassin, dive you, you deserve to die. Natural order of things.

ALL MłGHTJun 26, 20186 votes

How do you not let Fizz, an assassin, with Phantom Dancer creep mobility, 2 other mobile abilities and a huge fish dive you?

heroikcJun 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=ALL MłGHT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bupKOr4y,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-06-26T07:11:01.772+0000)

How do you not let Fizz, an assassin, with Phantom Dancer creep mobility, 2 other mobile abilities and a huge fish dive you?

Dodge the fish, keep your range.

bisbeedogJun 26, 20181 votes

I'm pretty sure the fish follows you if fizz initially clicks on you

heroikcJun 26, 20185 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure the fish follows you if fizz initially clicks on you

No it's a skill shot and attaches to whoever is the closest.

HayaishiJun 26, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Dodge the fish, keep your range.

Can't dodge the gigantic hitbox that thing has.

Assassins are the cancer of this game.

heroikcJun 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Can't dodge the gigantic hitbox that thing has.

Assassins are the cancer of this game.

Can't dodge targeted stuff like Talon or Zed, either.

RyrynounetJun 26, 20181 votes

at least talon is extremely telegraphed and doesn't have an untargetability that mean that when he q's (omegalul the range of that Q) you, you can hard cc him fairly easily (i don't talk about his garbage E that 1/7 jumps will bug and not for the good of him) with a laughable invis in his ult and a passive that contain the most of his dammage delayed by : 3 spells that need to hit (or two with the W if it hit twice), the necessity for talon to AA in order to proc it, a dot :>

Zed i don't talk about this whenever he hit 6 he kills you, when he get draktarr he wipes your team, if he gets fed he takes of the virginity of this game

heroikcJun 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Ryvals,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bupKOr4y,comment-id=000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T19:53:40.272+0000)

at least talon is extremely telegraphed and doesn't have an untargetability that mean that when he q's (omegalul the range of that Q) you, you can hard cc him fairly easily (i don't talk about his garbage E that 1/7 jumps will bug and not for the good of him) with a laughable invis in his ult and a passive that contain the most of his dammage delayed by : 3 spells that need to hit (or two with the W if it hit twice), the necessity for talon to AA in order to proc it, a dot :>

Zed i don't talk about this whenever he hit 6 he kills you, when he get draktarr he wipes your team, if he gets fed he takes of the virginity of this game

Telegraphed, right; he shoots a ring around him and becomes invisible and speedy. It's not like you can't CC Fizz with proper timing like Talon, or flash away from his ult (to the side) before it grabs you. And it isn't like he can't get all three stacks with his passive rather easily whereas Fizz's W needs a moment to charge.

If anything, Fizz or more like Talon than Zed.

RyrynounetJun 27, 20181 votes

he shoots a ring around him and becomes invisible and speedy

Man, the speed boost is 40/55/70, in early it's extremely lauphable, if he engage you with his R then he must be extremely ahead since his R is supposed to be the last spell of his combo Q W R AA.

The invisibility ye there's one but :

there'isn't 36546 way to get to you except running at you in the majority of the cases -you know when he is invis because of the ring of blade from where he casted the spell

What are you telling is just pure anti assassin bias, but hey what's my rank or what are my mains champ to say things about what I know, but don't worry if they get nerfed to the ground like at the end of S4 you'll just whine about bruiser or things like that that are able to not only kill your carry and MAYBE escape, but also kills everything that isn't another bruiser <3 <3

º Kindred ºJun 26, 20182 votes

me: reads counterplay also me: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/R80VYN6eObU/maxresdefault.jpg

Kurt HyzanJun 26, 20182 votes

item 3102

Int Like RickonJun 26, 20182 votes

Aren't assassins naturally counters to immobile mages? Isn't that the reason you play them vs immobile mages? That is like complaining when you pick a melee tank into a lane bully ranged champ top. If you don't like the match up, don't pick it. If you are counter-picked, know you may be in for a bad time even if you play safe.

YennJun 26, 20182 votes

ITT: People don't realize that a level 8 Fizz who only has Sheen deals around 1100 damage with an R + E + AA + W + AA without runes. With Scorch and Electrocute, he gets another 150 damage. With Ignite, another 255.

Realistically, he's also going to have more than just a Sheen.

This is a little more than 1500 damage, when most champions at mid have slightly over 1000 health at this level. Even if you rush MR, this still does around 1150 damage (assuming it were all magic damage, which it's not, a large portion of it is physical), which is more than your 1000 health. It also doesn't consider that he'll have his Q back up about 2 seconds after he completes his combo, netting him another couple hundred.

You literally cannot itemize to survive Fizz, short of going full tank. You may be having different experiences because you're playing against bad Fizzes who don't take advantage of the tripled damage on W.

InfernapeJun 26, 20181 votes

Doesn't Fizz legitimately hard counter both of them?

YennJun 26, 201812 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't Fizz legitimately hard counter both of them?

He hard counters literally every immobile mid laner, there's no way to survive against a decent Fizz player as most of the mid roster.

Auz the RipperJun 26, 20181 votes

Malz has pretty a decent chance against him

RainXBladeJun 26, 20182 votes

That's only because Malz has a Banshee's Veil as his passive (that's hilariously easy to take down) and a point-and-click suppress. Also, with proper timing, Fizz's ult can actually stop Malz's ult.

Auz the RipperJun 26, 20181 votes

You forgot that Malz also zones him from the minion wave with malefic visions. Also Fizz only has one way of dealing with the voidlings. It's not a hard counter by any means but Malz has has the edge.

NitroFTWJun 26, 20181 votes

Did you say fizz?

https://prnt.sc/jzbqiw

KalistarcJun 26, 20181 votes

I mean, arguments can be made from the Fizz perspective about how he sucks at early levels and he needs to have some sort of safety and waveclear, or how his only ranged damage is his ultimate ability.

He has clear-cut strengths and weaknesses. His strength is his very strong 1 on 1 all-in potential. His weaknesses are his pathetic early game and lack of ranged damage.

That's why, if you want to counterplay Fizz's Q-R, you just stomp on him early game, buy Merc Treads or a Negatron Cloak early, and have Barrier in your summoner spells. Not that hard, honestly. I don't play much mid lane this season, but I assume Fizz hasn't changed much since season 7. I was playing a lot of Viktor and faced quite a lot of Fizz, never really hard a problem against him, even when I was not building any MR. Just strong early laning phase from levels 1-5 and Barrier for his level 6 all-in were good enough.

Maybe Viktor is good at handling Fizz, because he has an ok shield on his Q and his W is good enough to threaten Fizz, if used on him. I remember playing Lulu vs Fizz recently, and I was able to survive his all-ins pretty easily, and killing him in return after he blew all his abilities to jump on me and try to kill me.

Radiant WukongJun 26, 20181 votes

By QR, are you saying Fizz presses Q before R?

BisaknospJun 26, 20181 votes

the small shark still deals 150 (60% ap) damage (plus his w passive) so why are people saying it deals no damage? this is actually the damage of a normal ultimate at this level wtf?

Tausif2002Jun 26, 20185 votes

it deals less damage than his e what the hell are you talking about?

Chumpzi11aJun 26, 20181 votes

Apdo once posted a video of his TF laning against a Fizz. If you can't find it, as I remember the high points were, take ignite, pull the wave, freeze under your tower and don't use your cc or waveclear while you can see him. He dropped a few cs setting up the freeze, and maintaining it, but denied the Fizz like 8 waves or something crazy.