Let's Have A Real Talk About Support & The Meta Game.

Best Ekko NA··9 votes·2,164 views

#The Meta ##-- it's a strategy decided based on what has found to work best at any given time within League of Legends.

Right now the "meta" consists of players using a Ranged AD Carry Champion with a "Support" Champion assisting them in the Bottom lane, a Jungler for vision Support; Crowd Control; and additional damage; a Mage / Assassin in the Middle lane, and a Bruiser / Fill Champion in the realm of the Top lane for team fighting and split pushing.

The current meta usually always dictates everything within the game as it's the method of playing which usually points to having a good amount of success in games. The meta has changed a bit since the beginning of times however generally has remained similar to what it currently is. Due to the fact that the meta brings in the most chances of success, it's naturally the #1 supported method of playing by the vast majority of players. Players in turn frown upon anything that goes against this as they would like the highest chance possible of winning their game. Of recent Riot has even taken a firm stand with the meta, despite their claims of not enforcing or support it, which has been exposed with the very controversial punishment of the Singed player who was heavily disliked for going against the current meta game.

Today however, let's take a look at the other side of "the meta". Let's consider other variations of the "meta" and various strategies which have been implemented both in solo games as well as competitive play. Let's talk real talk. What is truly possible within League of Legends? Let's open our minds beyond what we would normally. Is the current meta is truly the best method of play, or simply something used as a vague outline of how to play? The people are the meta, in a sense, and going against the meta means offending others. Does this mean Riot should really enforce the meta game? The Summoners Code is all about being a good teammate, so wouldn't enforcement make more sense? There are a great deal of things to consider and none of them really seem to have a distinct black and white answer. With that, now we go into our list of off-meta compositions.


-- #Your TEAM Has Been Selected! Have Been Placed Into A....

#1.) Double Jungle Composition (Two Junglers)

>This comp revolves around each Jungler taking one side of the Jungle. They clear the Jungle faster than a solo Jungler, and can 'control' lanes much easier, as they have tons of free time to spend in a lane or investigating what the enemy Jungle is up to. This style of play has even been seen within professional tier play although has proven to have lower results due to higher amounts of communication at that level of play. Let's stop and think for a second though, could this off-meta composition not work in solo queue? Players are far more disorganized with random teammates than in a professional level match. With the modified Jungle in Season 7, this style of play also gains increased viability due to the increased sustain from Jungle Monsters. It's essentially like having two roaming Supports (one for top and another for bottom lane) both having a source of income.

#2.) Free Jungle Composition (Two Top Lanes / Two Bot Lanes)

> This composition doesn't really have a true name however it's the primitive style of League of Legends from the primeval days of LoL before you reached a high enough level to acquire Smite as a Summoner Spell. Realistically, this comp actually works very similarly to a double Jungle Composition with the exception that instead of having two Junglers, you have none. Players are able to take Jungle Monsters at their leisure with no dedicated player for taking all of them. This method of play has been used for 7 seasons straight now, and still dominates as the go to play meta for low level players. It's survived along-side the widely accepted meta for this long, what's so bad about it?

#3.) Reverse Composition (Two Top Lanes / One Bot Lane)

> A composition where the Top Lane player proves he / she is a true solo master and the Bottom Lane tries their best to not look bad in the process. Will the enemy Bottom Lane bully the Top Lane or will the solo top master be victorious? This "lane swap" strategy was the primary meta used throughout the entire 2015 season in competitive play. It became such a huge fun sapping problem that Riot had to directly step in and create a method to stop it. Let's go back to the drawing board however! If this were introduced into the meta as a valid play strategy in solo queue, how would that change the way in which players adapt to the game?

#4.) Middle Support Composition (Two Mid Lanes)

>This is likely the least implemented strategy in League of Legends. I've played in and seen several games with players who have done this and I've never been disappointed. In the current meta which uses squishy middle lane champions such as Mages and Assassins, it's a nightmare dealing with multiple enemies at the same time in the early game. Not only is it difficult to farm, but you also still have to worry about the threat of the enemy Jungler. This is essentially the same strategy as a 2v1 bottom lane (and you ADC's thought you were the only ones), except far worse due to most Mid lane champions having a much harder time farming in the early game.

#5.) Kill Lane Composition (Two AD Carry)

>This composition is built around players who really hate playing support. Many players think that the other person is just trolling and that this type of composition can never work but, does it really have to? League of Legends is all about competition, proving yourself. A kill lane might mean fighting your teammate for kills and cs, but the one thing it doesn't do is remove teamwork from the equation. I feel that this comp actually does its job extremely well. It forces both you and your teammate to learn how to cs better. It's a composition based around teammate synergy. Kill lanes are my favorite style of play in all of League of Legends. It makes your ADC hate you, but also at the same time respect you, because when done well you are doing what he himself wishes he was doing.

These five methods are the largest implemented varieties of "going against the meta". They put a bad taste in everyone's mouth (for the most part) and are commonly deemed as 'trolling' when done by another player. Interestingly enough, 3 out of the 5 have been done in professional tier play and one of them has remained just as popular as the meta itself for 6 years now (with Kill Lane being somewhere in between?)

With these thoughts in mind, why do they put such a bad impression in people's heads? Why do you consider these unique styles of playing to be such a huge problem in League of Legends? Voice your concerns! Tell the world how you feel because all of us are in this game together and we need to know!

Is That A [Insert Troll Champion Here] ADC?!!!

On to the next topic!

With the domination of AD Carries for years now it's looked upon poorly if your team does not have one. Are Marksman_ really_ that important however? Let's delve deeper into the reason(s) why you very well could be overacting to not having one.

To begin this topic, we will start by analyzing the heated controversy of the Singed support's invade strategy. Singed's poison is very powerful in the early game, even more so with Ability Power runes. The Singed support player utilizes this advantage by invading his enemy's Jungle while the enemy is clearing his second buff. While clearing this buff the enemy Jungler will be at his weakest point in the entire game. The enemy Jungle's team cannot easily assist him without losing gold and experience and he is low health in most scenarios, from having been clearing his Jungle. Strategically, this is a mastermind strategy for a Singed support as he won't gain anything at all standing around doing nothing in lane with another champion and his whole team reaps the benefits from Singed putting the enemy Jungle behind. Singed comes back to lane either 1.) with double buffs & wasted much of the enemy Jungle's time from him dying or 2.) wasted the enemy Jungle's time and if he was stopped, also wasted enemy laner's time causing them to miss both experience and gold. Both of the previous scenarios work out as a win-win situation overall.

This is where we turn around and look at the other side -- that lonely marksman in the bottom lane. The whole time Singed is running around monkeying in the enemies Jungle his Marksman is suffering the oppression of the enemies Bottom lane.

He is probably thinking, "this isn't my fault, why is this Singed trolling? What did I do to deserve this!"

This is where the real question comes into the discussion -- Just how valuable are AD Carries? Pretend you are in champion select with this Singed support main. You see him pick Singed. After this person auto-locks his Singed, he copy / pastes his strategy in the chat. Instantly you realize that now for the first 5 minutes of the game you are going to need to be all alone bottom lane. You know as an Marksman champion that you are going to have a very difficult time in a 1v2 and yet, you lock a Marksman anyways. Why did you pick a Marksman? Was it because that's the meta?

After locking this marksman you then in turn struggle in game, the entire time blaming Singed. Was it Singed's fault that you decided to choose a Marksman, despite what he explained to you in champion select? The real problem behind this lies one single thing -- The Meta. You picked an AD Carry because that is what the meta taught you to do. Let's take a moment to move our minds outside of the current meta. It's not Singed's fault that you picked a Marksman, there are tons of champions that can handle 1v2 situations in the early game. Champions like Riven, Jarvan, Volibear, Cho'Gath, Kayle, Nasus, and many more are very capable of surviving and even doing well in this same situation. How important was it to pick a marksman? Was Singed really being unreasonable? Or was it perhaps that you just didn't want to adapt and play outside of your comfortable zone within the meta?

Strangely, the same applies to not just Support players, but also AD Carry champions. Many people frown upon what others choose for AD Carry. Few players are happy when they see Yasuo, Riven, Aatrox, Irelia, Master Yi, Nasus, Mordekaiser, and other such champions as their AD Carry. Are these champions not capable of taking towers just like normal AD Carry champions? It is very truthful to say that these champions may not be quite as safe as their ranged counterparts however they do the same job (of taking towers) just as well, if not better in most cases. Once again, it goes back to how willing are you to adapt. If you knew that your AD Carry in the bot lane wasn't ranged, why didn't you adapt and cover for your team's weak point like the Summoners Code teaches? It's most definitely not the melee AD Carry player's fault that you as a player are unwilling to switch up your play style. Even if they are unwilling to change theirs, two wrongs do not make a right.. correct?

So, are AD Carries really that important? The simple answer, no. Think back to when Mordekaiser dominated the LCS scene after his rework. While very debatable, I myself am fairly certain that any melee Top Lane or Jungle champion could have been played in the Bottom lane during that period before Mordekaiser received nurfs. Melee AD laners were becoming strong. The LCS never caught on and kept using Ranged Marksman for AD Carry. in turn the result, of course, was for Riot to end the Mordekaiser domination in the Bottom lane by removing some of his strength. When professional players are incapable of coming up with the answer, Riot has to step in and make balance adjustments. The flaw behind this naturally is that despite being mechanically better than everyone, professional and high tier players are not always better at "play testing" so to speak. You win against others consistently with previously learned knowledge, not experimental play making.

#Riot Does NOT Have To Enforce The Meta!

Right now, Riot does enforce the meta.

I honestly cannot tell you if it's an intentional thing or not. When you look at how the new Ranked & Draft Pick Systems are designed you can see that they removed the ability to create custom team compositions. Custom team comps were terrible and usually everyone just avoided Team Builder because of it. The reason it turned out so poorly however wasn't really because the compositions created weren't decent but instead seemed more because nobody really understood what the other 4 randoms they got paired up with were doing. When I join a lobby with 3 guys mid and they don't explain to me what's going on, there's not much chance that I'm sticking around in the lobby for much longer to find out. The constant dodge battle made queue times so insanely long that there really wasn't much hope at all for ever finding a decent team composition worth executing on and playing with.

So, back to the header, if Team Builder sucked so much how does Riot stop enforcing the meta and still create a solution that can work for everyone? -- It's fairly simple actually.

Go back to the top where I listed the five most used non-meta strategies. Basically, instead of assigning the usual "meta style" every single game you shuffle between all 6 of these proven strategies in Draft Mode & Solo Queue. This works because of two different reasons -- the first, is that the enemy team will never really know which composition you got matched into and you have no idea what theirs is either. Due to this fact, it will be much more difficult for the enemy team to fully understand your champion selections. The second reason it works is due to the fact that players are much more willing to adjust back to a normal situation than they are to deviate from it. Each game teams would get matched into a different meta play style however, when they do not feel comfortable teams of randoms would be much more willing to accept and go back to the "default" meta as a standard.

As a whole, implementing this into the game safely promotes other meta play allowing players to deviate from the normal without tons of backlash from their teammates. When you look at how things work right now, when someone wants to try something new they incur the wrath of 4 other players. By changing switching things up, you promote healthy exploration of different meta styles while removing that toxic element from the game and replacing it with this unspoken ability to "default" back to what is now the current meta. This is the best idea that I can come up with at least ^^

#How Do YOU Feel?

What are your thoughts on this matter?

To me this is likely one of the biggest things that needs attention as it's always been a blurred area in not only Riot's enforcement, but also the community as a whole. The Tribunal was often equally as punishing on non-meta selections and play styles as Riot has shown to be at times. If Riot doesn't approve of "third party strategies" in games with randoms, I really believe that they should finally stand up and let the community understand that it's NOT okay to go against the meta. There is absolutely no line between "working with your teammates" and "going against the meta" and this is something that I believe Riot doesn't fully understand. The meta is created by the community. WE MADE IT. If someone is going against the meta, they aren't working with their team (in most cases at least. Most people simply won't be okay with that unless pre-made). If this is considered wrong, Riot, you need to stand up and put that black line down so everyone understands.

On the contrary, if we as a community honestly feel that going against the meta isn't wrong, I believe something should be done to implement that more into the game to promote a healthy way of playing different styles and strategies in game. Currently the only available composition is "the meta" and it creates that nasty urge for us to shun anything that deviates from that. By implementing something that will force us to adapt we will learn to accept other styles of play -- and who knows, maybe it could be the thing that helps evolve League into the future.

-- If you got down this far without skipping all of it, thanks you are a real trooper. I really hope you guys can provide some real feedback and ideas for the betterment of us all. :)

[slayer-jinx-catface]

38 Comments

Sylvant4 votes

for off-meta strategy to work, it takes a team of players and not just a single person. This is whats wrongly misunderstood by majority of players. They see support Miss Fortune on LCS scene and they think, ok if the pro players say it works, then it works. No it doesnt. It works because the pro players are extremely skilled team which with combined effort can bring a surprising method of play work. Thats what pisses me off. Ppl follow examples like lambs, without looking behind the background reasons of how and why something work or dont. They are deprived of personal opinion. Their opinion is an echo of what they heard or seen by pro players, which in many cases is wrongly misinterpret.

Sona Ping3 votes

Another singed support thread

... You can't make any arguments based on ignoring the fact the guy was basicallyjust griefing. Taking other players' role, taking their farm, shoving their lanes so they die to ganks, and falsely reporting them for intentionally feeding.

"The Meta -- it's a strategy decided based on what has found to work best at any given time within League of Legends."

And meta is not a strategy. That's not even what meta means!

0/10 see me after class.

Best Ekko NA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=blAIAVsZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-19T09:38:44.799+0000)

... You can't make any arguments based on ignoring the fact the guy was basicallyjust griefing. Taking other players' role, taking their farm, shoving their lanes so they die to ganks, and falsely reporting them for intentionally feeding. -- it's a strategy decided based on what has found to work best at any given time within League of Legends."

And meta is not a strategy. That's not even what meta means!

0/10 see me after class.

Wow man, just wow.

My thread was not about Singed support, it was just a good example that recently happened which I decided to incorporate into my post. Also meta is a strategy, the terminology in which it's used actually has the literal meaning of "most effective tactic or method available". That most definitely does refer to strategy. Dx

Sona Ping2 votes

{quoted}

Wow man, just wow.

My thread was not about Singed support, it was just a good example that recently happened which I decided to incorporate into my post.

It's a terrible example because this guy does multiple things worthy of being banned for. It doesn't say anything that Redditors are stupid enough to jump to the conclusions they wanted and made a controversy out of this.

Also meta is a strategy, the terminology in which it's used actually has the literal meaning of "most effective tactic or method available". That most definitely does refer to strategy. Dx

It literally does not. It's not an acronym, it's Greek.

If an argument is built on a faulty premise, no true conclusions can be drawn from it. It's not mould that can be cut from bread; everything must be thrown out. And there are faulty assumptions.

Champion Skin2 votes

It's a terrible example because this guy does multiple things worthy of being banned for. It doesn't say anything that Redditors are stupid enough to jump to the conclusions they wanted and made a controversy out of this.

Like what? From what I have seen he mostly just play singed as an early roamer stealing some enemy jungle and then maybe doing a couple of ganks if it is right situation for it and then returns to bot lane and lanes there until lane start moving and roaming Also not building sightstone and "stealing" cs from the ADC isn't banned worthy... if it was then a lot of low level/ranked supports would be banned...

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=blAIAVsZ,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-19T10:33:31.697+0000)

Like what? From what I have seen he mostly just play singed as an early roamer stealing some enemy jungle and then maybe doing a couple of ganks if it is right situation for it and then returns to bot lane and lanes there until lane start moving and roaming Also not building sightstone and "stealing" cs from the ADC isn't banned worthy... if it was then a lot of low level/ranked supports would be banned...

Yea it's weird, in the other thread someone posted a video as supposed 'evidence' of the guy doing something wrong however I watched the majority of it and still haven't seen anything. He makes that comment about the cs but it really is quite a funny comment seeing how Janna doesn't do any damage and even farming under tower Jinx should have had more than 3 CS with her superior range. lol

Still, back to my point.. following the meta is fine but playing out of the meta should technically be fine as well. There's multiple ways of playing the game regardless of whether or not someone else thinks it works. Just because one person can't do it doesn't mean another player can't be successful. >.<

mr Boombastic7872 votes

Meta might be a greek word but it also means M(most) E(effient) T(tactic) A(available).

I don't understand why you got to be so rude about it. The op made a great post about other strategys that could work and that riot should not enforce the meta. At least I would like it better if everyone could play what they want if they don't troll. I understand that you don't want the same thing as me and that is okey. Everyone have different opinions but I don't think you should hate on the op for thinking outside the box!

That Singed player do not deserve to be banned. What riot have said on the topic is litterly that he will get banned for counterjungling, roaming a lot and for not buying sightstone! That does not make any sense. I understand that his adc will have a harder time and will probably think that he is trolling if he would have a bad game. I respect this Singed player for reaching such a high rank with a off meta pick! I am silver 2 and he is in gold-plat. He is better then most of leagues players!

Purpl3Jungl32 votes

a lot of these wont work. unless ur team are idiots, you need to focus on farm early game, by taking most of the wave. splitting farm = less gold = eh, no.

The current positions and lanes are set up because they work. 1 for each lane and jungle so everyone can farm, and a support for bot. Support cant be mid because the lane is short and the support's CC won't do much affect because of the high mobility + short lane. Support cant go top either because it's extremely tanky, you as a support will get crushed, and even if you dont, you wont be as much of a use as you would be with an adc. Example, Morgana would go better with vayne than with irelia because ADC's with attack speeds especially go well with roots and would be excellent, however, with irelia, your lane may be disfunctional, and even if it does work out, there's just no point because a support is more useful with an ADC.

Now, as for 2 top 1 mid 2 support and no jg, this may put a bit of pressure on their top laner, but it won't be worth it because there's nobody to help the other lanes. So.. if bot needs help, and mid cant roam cuz theyre busy or dead, there will be nobody to help them because top lane is too far away, considering teleports are down (even with teleports, they wont be as efficient as ganks). So you may be doing well on one lane (top), but mid and bot would be ganked & snowballed left and right and there's just nothing anyone can do about it

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

a lot of these wont work. unless ur team are idiots, you need to focus on farm early game, by taking most of the wave. splitting farm = less gold = eh, no.

The current positions and lanes are set up because they work. 1 for each lane and jungle so everyone can farm, and a support for bot. Support cant be mid because the lane is short and the support's CC won't do much affect because of the high mobility + short lane. Support cant go top either because it's extremely tanky, you as a support will get crushed, and even if you dont, you wont be as much of a use as you would be with an adc. Example, Morgana would go better with vayne than with irelia because ADC's with attack speeds especially go well with roots and would be excellent, however, with irelia, your lane may be disfunctional, and even if it does work out, there's just no point because a support is more useful with an ADC.

Now, as for 2 top 1 mid 2 support and no jg, this may put a bit of pressure on their top laner, but it won't be worth it because there's nobody to help the other lanes. So.. if bot needs help, and mid cant roam cuz theyre busy or dead, there will be nobody to help them because top lane is too far away, considering teleports are down (even with teleports, they wont be as efficient as ganks). So you may be doing well on one lane (top), but mid and bot would be ganked & snowballed left and right and there's just nothing anyone can do about it

So you are saying, that one player doesn't have the right to farm? Why isn't League of Legends a 4 player game then...?

{quoted}

I miss the days of ADC (ashe) mids, with jungle being a mostly optional role.

also just on a side note, the meta of any game is what works best, be it league, mtg, WoW, or whatever. All of what you mentioned was tried back in s1, and it all sucked in comparison to 1/1/2 + J. That's why we've stuck with it for so long, not because no one tried anything else, simply because it's what worked the best.

Also, the point of my post isn't to say that no one ever tried it. Like I said in my post, 3/5 of these were tried by professional teams, it's not like I am saying they've never been done before. The point is, should someone be punished for playing off-meta? If playing off-meta causes players to not succeed, shouldn't meta be enforced by Riot?

On the other side of things, if Riot supports non meta strategies, why aren't they balancing the game accordingly? Right now everything Riot balances around is under the assumption that there will be an ADC & Support in the Bottom lane. If Riot supported non-meta play you would think that they'd add other incentives to remove such things or allow other types of champions to play down there.

Dynikus2 votes

Riot vaguely balances around the current meta because it's the easiest and best way to make a fairly balanced game that everyone can enjoy. Trying to balance something with basically no structure where anyone can play anywhere would be incredibly difficult, and just wind up as a huge mess.

There's nothing stopping you from playing a champion in an unintended role though, and sometimes a new meta is created that way. ie: tanko, adcs in jungle, mid, or top, APC supports, etc.

So you are saying, that one player doesn't have the right to farm? Why isn't League of Legends a 4 player game then...?

supports play an important role, but are generally champions that can accomplish that role without being heavily reliant on gold. It's not that they don't have the right to farm, it's that other roles can put the gold to better use.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

Riot vaguely balances around the current meta because it's the easiest and best way to make a fairly balanced game that everyone can enjoy. Trying to balance something with basically no structure where anyone can play anywhere would be incredibly difficult, and just wind up as a huge mess.

There's nothing stopping you from playing a champion in an unintended role though, and sometimes a new meta is created that way. ie: tanko, adcs in jungle, mid, or top, APC supports, etc.

supports play an important role, but are generally champions that can accomplish that role without being heavily reliant on gold. It's not that they don't have the right to farm, it's that other roles can put the gold to better use.

I don't know that I agree, I feel that Supports play the only role that they have.. not Support because their role is important. The reason most Supports do not do damage is because they are balanced around not having items. They have higher base damages at the expense of having little in terms of late game scaling. This often creates nightmares like the Zyra mid which is running rampant currently. I'm not going to say that I have all of the answers, but if Riot opened up the game more for other strategies like double jungle to become a more realistic feat, we wouldn't need a Support with super modified stats anymore. Instead they could just balance all Supports normally like the rest of the champions.

Purpl3Jungl32 votes

{quoted}

So you are saying, that one player doesn't have the right to farm? Why isn't League of Legends a 4 player game then...?

There are 3 lanes and a jungle that fits 1 person. That means 4 people have to sit back and farm, whilst one person (Support) plans out way they can help the AD get kills. Believe it or not, farming isn't fun, and support is the role with the most action going on because you never have to farm, you're on the go 24/7

just because they don't farm and go for kills, doesn't mean they aren't apart of the game. a good support can ruin the game for an enemy

I hate my ADC1 votes

{quoted}

So you are saying, that one player doesn't have the right to farm? Why isn't League of Legends a 4 player game then...?

If you don't like Support, then don't play it? A lot of us enjoy being selfless and the challenge of dealing with a low budget.

Best Ekko NA2 votes

[{quoted}](name=I hate my ADC,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=blAIAVsZ,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2016-11-19T10:02:22.145+0000)

If you don't like Support, then don't play it? A lot of us enjoy being selfless and the challenge of dealing with a low budget.

{quoted}

There are 3 lanes and a jungle that fits 1 person. That means 4 people have to sit back and farm, whilst one person (Support) plans out way they can help the AD get kills. Believe it or not, farming isn't fun, and support is the role with the most action going on because you never have to farm, you're on the go 24/7

just because they don't farm and go for kills, doesn't mean they aren't apart of the game. a good support can ruin the game for an enemy

Yes but there are many styles of playing Support. Not everyone wants to play Support the same way that you guys are picturing it. I play a lot of Support, does that mean I want to sit in lane and watch someone farm? No. I'm guessing it's the same with that Singed dude, except he actually had an extremely viable solution which apparently no one liked.

Reality is that the problem doesn't fall on any single role, but all of them combined. If one role does something off-key, another role suffers as a consequence. Do you believe that is fair? What if your AD Carry doesn't want to be a ranged champion, how do you feel? What if your AD Carry wants to be a Braum? Should he get punished for that just because you don't like it?

If AD Carry wants to take Smite and start Red buff, should he get punished just because his Jungler doesn't like that strategy?

There's a lot of things that really could be different but many people don't really approve of because the League community as a whole is brain washed. My AD carry has accidentally stolen red several times and every time it ended with the enemy team surrendering at 20 minutes. Does that make it trolling? Hell no it doesn't. Even if the Jungler is upset, he should at least be glad we won in the end.

I hate my ADC1 votes

{quoted} Yes but there are many styles of playing Support.

Yeah, there is. But none of them has you stealing gold from your team or leaving your ADC in a 1v2 early game. If you don't want to leave the gold for the rest of your team, then you aren't playing Support but a different role. Call it however you want, but don't call it Support. It's not Support. Support is a role that was defined by Riot and for which you are able to queue for in dynamic queues.

the League community as a whole is brain washed

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of sheep who refuse to break the system. Fuck the police and other stuff like that.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I hate my ADC,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=blAIAVsZ,comment-id=00010000000200000000,timestamp=2016-11-19T10:19:55.708+0000)

Yeah, we're all just a bunch of sheep who refuse to break the system. Fuck the police and other stuff like that.

At least you have a nice sense of humor. XD [slayer-jinx-wink]

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=blAIAVsZ,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-11-19T10:25:09.242+0000)

Top laners certainly aren't very tanky early on for the most part... that is why ranged champions are often able to bully them early game and later on the support could just you know roam or go to another lane... there isn't any particular need for the support to just be in one place/lane (since they aren't making use of the CS/jungle farm they don't have any specific place they have to be to get their gold)

And a mid lane support could certainly be good against certain champions... mostly melee champions with few ways of farming from a distances so mostly fizz and maybe kind of Kassadin?

So, which AD wants to 1v1 a Riven, Fiora, or Volibear at level 1? Couldn't find one? Me either.

Champion Skin1 votes

Top laners certainly aren't very tanky early on for the most part... that is why ranged champions are often able to bully them early game and later on the support could just you know roam or go to another lane... there isn't any particular need for the support to just be in one place/lane (since they aren't making use of the CS/jungle farm they don't have any specific place they have to be to get their gold)

And a mid lane support could certainly be good against certain champions... mostly melee champions with few ways of farming from a distances so mostly fizz and maybe kind of Kassadin?

ShaolinToilet2 votes

NO

Dynikus1 votes

The meta has changed a bit since the beginning of times however generally has remained similar to what it currently is.

I miss the days of ADC (ashe) mids, with jungle being a mostly optional role.

also just on a side note, the meta of any game is what works best, be it league, mtg, WoW, or whatever. All of what you mentioned was tried back in s1, and it all sucked in comparison to 1/1/2 + J. That's why we've stuck with it for so long, not because no one tried anything else, simply because it's what worked the best.

I hate my ADC1 votes

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/a2/a250f1dadecd8afb95b2b21ce801b23758589a5931a8d9619190ea1821a4a27b.jpg

All this talk about "Meta", whatever the hell "Meta" is even supposed to mean nowadays, reminds me of something from the real world called "Hipsters". The "Meta" is too "Mainstream" for you guys? Better start doing stuff nobody ever done, like AD Proxy Sona Jungle no Smite.

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I hate my ADC,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=blAIAVsZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-19T09:56:57.443+0000)

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/a2/a250f1dadecd8afb95b2b21ce801b23758589a5931a8d9619190ea1821a4a27b.jpg

All this talk about "Meta", whatever the hell "Meta" is even supposed to mean nowadays, reminds me of something from the real world called "Hipsters". The "Meta" is too "Mainstream" for you guys? Better start doing stuff nobody ever done, like AD Proxy Sona Jungle no Smite.

To be fair, I did happen to see Best Riven NA play with a pro player who played Soraka Jungle and the Soraka ran the enemy out of his own Jungle and carried the game. I was never a believer but miracles do happen, sometimes you just gotta have faith. XD

Champion Skin1 votes

This composition doesn't really have a true name however it's the primitive style of League of Legends from the primeval days of LoL before you reached a high enough level to acquire Smite as a Summoner Spell. Realistically, this comp actually works very similarly to a double Jungle Composition with the exception that instead of having two Junglers, you have none. Players are able to take Jungle Monsters at their leisure with no dedicated player for taking all of them. This method of play has been used for 7 seasons straight now, and still dominates as the go to play meta for low level players. It's survived along-side the widely accepted meta for this long, what's so bad about it?

there was actually a short time when people played 2 top... with the power of item 3302 sharing gold and giving lots of sustain.... (but it was nerfed)

Spoofghoul1 votes

When i want to play off meta i fucking play off meta

I don't even get much hate for it

I mostly play Sion mid. And, sometimes yorick but haven't done that in a while,

People don't hate me for it but that's probably because they perceive me as oh hes playing a tank mid teams often lack tanks so it's fine and carries never mind having 2 tanks either cos it makes their life easier. Though sometimes im secretly not a tank anyway and i decide to play something oddball like assassin Sion instead.

I think the biggest problem is team composition when playing off meta and usability to the team. When i play Sion mid my team doesn't really have to deviate from their usual meta play, they can play their carry or tank jungler same for top and bot also doesn't change much Sion has enough clear and aoe to not be a liability because you did not pick a mage he will bring damage and utility and his roams are strictly stronger anyway any midganks by enemies often don't result in anything due to bulk and ganks from your team result in kills due to the large amounts of cc

And if someone decided to play an additional marksman or mage in jungle or top your team wont suffer a lack of frontline either

It's a pick which is off meta doesn't force team to adapt much but allows for a greater amount of additional off meta picks and styles without throwing your team comp off much if at all

Hell i remember playing a yasuo braum botlane a while back he picked yasuo adc and i picked braum to support him, double windwall fast stuns multiple knockups and the ability to dash to yasuo's aid as he closed the gap we totally wrecked our opponents

They key to dealing with off meta picks is your ability to adapt.

But the key to playing off meta is to also consider the meta and your team composition as well as usual strengths of the picks in those positions. Without doing so you are simply trolling

Xintium1 votes

{quoted}

Go back to the top where I listed the five most used non-meta strategies. Basically, instead of assigning the usual &quot;meta style&quot; every single game you shuffle between all 6 of these proven strategies in Draft Mode &amp; Solo Queue. [...] This is the best idea that I can come up with at least ^^

Unfortunately, this has no chance of working in the long-run (especially in high ELO) and I will briefly explain why. As you said, the "meta" is the "most efficient tactic available", i.e., the strategy that has the highest probability of winning a game. If your idea would be implemented, what would happen is that players would (sooner or later, neglecting a transitory phase) realize that off-meta compositions would have lower winrate than meta composition, up to the point where the gap will become so evident as to make off-meta teams a strong disadvantage. So, if the automatic random system rolls "double jungler comp", player X would be like "screw it, let's play meta or gg" and the meta will re-emerge once again as the dominant strategy.

Just to give an example, Double Jungler compositions are completely negated by an enemy team which freezes botlane and makes the enemy botlaner starve to death (10 CS or so at 10 minutes, good luck). Moreover, since the jungler must split its gold/exp with another jungler, he will be a bit under-leveled and with less gold, making himself overall weaker and the same is true for the second jungler. Overall, you have: 2 weak junglers, 1 starved botlaner. In low ELO, you may see this off-meta strategies somehow work due to wrong decisions in playing against them by catching the enemy team by surprise (afterall, no one specifically trains against Double Junglers comps), but there is a very specific reason why "Support" (Double Jungler) Singed couldn't make it to Diamond+, and it is not mechanics by any means.

One critical point must be underlined: you said that "The meta is created by the community. WE MADE IT." This sentence is a bit misleading. The meta was not "made" by the community, it was discovered by the community. The meta exists regardless of whether the community plays it or not. Remember its definition: the meta is the most efficient tactic at any given time, regardless if the community plays it or not.

In its essence, the "meta" is a mathematical fact. At its core, a game like LoL is a distributed decision problem with a finite (even if huge) number of elements. A strategy is a series of decisions. Since the number of strategies is finite, this implies that: a) either all strategies have all equal probability of winning; b) one or more strategies have superior probability of winning; Via logical thinking and reasoning, we discovered that, in LoL, one strategy (1/1/2+Jungler) has superior probability of winning to all the others (under reasonable assumptions). As the game changes, the meta may (or may not) change. But the basic fact is the following: the meta is the most efficient strategy, not necessarily the most played strategy. Back in early S5, the most efficient strategy was Lane Swap (as LCS teached us), yet the most played strategy was regular lanes. The meta is a mathematical concept which exists regardless if it is the most played or not.

The only correct way to have what you want is to change the game in such a way that there is no single dominant strategy, but 2-3 strategy with same probability of winning. In that case, the "meta" would be a set of strategies, and not a single strategy (like now), and this would create diversity. However, in order for such a thing to happen, extreme modifications need to occur and this is too much unlikely. The fundamentals of LoL are so well-established that, from a lane-assignment strategical perspective, the game is essentially "solved".

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately, this has no chance of working in the long-run (especially in high ELO) and I will briefly explain why. As you said, the "meta" is the "most efficient tactic available", i.e., the strategy that has the highest probability of winning a game. If your idea would be implemented, what would happen is that players would (sooner or later, neglecting a transitory phase) realize that off-meta compositions would have lower winrate than meta composition, up to the point where the gap will become so evident as to make off-meta teams a strong disadvantage. So, if the automatic random system rolls "double jungler comp", player X would be like "screw it, let's play meta or gg" and the meta will re-emerge once again as the dominant strategy.

Just to give an example, Double Jungler compositions are completely negated by an enemy team which freezes botlane and makes the enemy botlaner starve to death (10 CS or so at 10 minutes, good luck). Moreover, since the jungler must split its gold/exp with another jungler, he will be a bit under-leveled and with less gold, making himself overall weaker and the same is true for the second jungler. Overall, you have: 2 weak junglers, 1 starved botlaner. In low ELO, you may see this off-meta strategies somehow work due to wrong decisions in playing against them by catching the enemy team by surprise (afterall, no one specifically trains against Double Junglers comps), but there is a very specific reason why "Support" (Double Jungler) Singed couldn't make it to Diamond+, and it is not mechanics by any means.

One critical point must be underlined: you said that "The meta is created by the community. WE MADE IT." This sentence is a bit misleading. The meta was not "made" by the community, it was discovered by the community. The meta exists regardless of whether the community plays it or not. Remember its definition: the meta is the most efficient tactic at any given time, regardless if the community plays it or not.

In its essence, the "meta" is a mathematical fact. At its core, a game like LoL is a distributed decision problem with a finite (even if huge) number of elements. A strategy is a series of decisions. Since the number of strategies is finite, this implies that: a) either all strategies have all equal probability of winning; b) one or more strategies have superior probability of winning; Via logical thinking and reasoning, we discovered that, in LoL, one strategy (1/1/2+Jungler) has superior probability of winning to all the others (under reasonable assumptions). As the game changes, the meta may (or may not) change. But the basic fact is the following: the meta is the most efficient strategy, not necessarily the most played strategy. Back in early S5, the most efficient strategy was Lane Swap (as LCS teached us), yet the most played strategy was regular lanes. The meta is a mathematical concept which exists regardless if it is the most played or not.

The only correct way to have what you want is to change the game in such a way that there is no single dominant strategy, but 2-3 strategy with same probability of winning. In that case, the "meta" would be a set of strategies, and not a single strategy (like now), and this would create diversity. However, in order for such a thing to happen, extreme modifications need to occur and this is too much unlikely. The fundamentals of LoL are so well-established that, from a lane-assignment strategical perspective, the game is essentially "solved".

You make a lot of valid points, however in such a case where players DO revert back, there's always a reason for it. What makes the desired comp such a better strategy than the others? This is something you look at from a balance perspective if you are Riot in this situation. For example, If Ranged AD Carries are found to be too strong against turrets, why not reduce the amount of damage they can deal to a tower? After all, a melee champion has much more risk in taking towers so shouldn't they be more heavily rewarded than a champion who attacks from a distance?

There's many ways that the game could be further balanced however it would first require Riot to stand with or against non-meta strategies. You can't balance for something that you do not fully commit to and this is the issue that has plagued Riot since the game's release. My thoughts aren't really "we should play non-meta strategy and put it into the game" as much as it is "Riot needs to get their shit together and decide whether or not it's allowed". If it IS allowed (which is where my speculation and suggestions begin), then Riot needs to take action and not only implement, but balance out non meta strategies so that they can actually be done consistently without just making people look like trolls in need of behavior reports.

Another thing too -- If this ever was implemented, it would work, even at high tiers of play. The reason is because it would be implemented into the matchmaking algorithm (everyone picks their role, Riot's system decides on the team that is built). I'm fairly certain that if you were matched into something like a double Jungle comp you are going to get two Jungle mains on your team (two players who queued for Jungle), maybe they can play another role but will they really want to? There is a chance that people will decide to use what we now consider the normal however, without the oppression of the system how can you really know? I really think that if Riot's system wasn't supporting our current meta (and didn't balance purely around it) that things would be a lot different. Players wouldn't be scared of two Jungles or even two ADC's.

Basically, everything is reliant on what Riot enforces and how they balance.

Xintium1 votes

{quoted}

You make a lot of valid points, however in such a case where players DO revert back, there's always a reason for it. What makes the desired comp such a better strategy than the others?

Pure mathematics. More precisely, distribution of exp and gold.

There's many ways that the game could be further balanced however it would first require Riot to stand with or against non-meta strategies. [...]

This makes your position extremely clear. I can definitely sympathize with it, but the real problem is that Riot is (and likely will) enforce the current meta. I can understand why Riot wants to enforce the current meta. It is a very simple fact: if something basic (like the ranged vs melee example you made) was actually changed, off-meta strategies may be either flat-out impossible to balance or become extreme (too weak or too strong).

The problem is not making a single off-meta strategy (e.g. Double Jungler) viable, but making at least 2-3 of them viable. Otherwise, the strategy with the highest winning probability will emerge again and we will be back at square one. There is no guarantee that this is even possible, at all.

You must always remember that the core of this game is a set of (albeit very complex) mathematical equations. Balance is a mathematical property and equations may (or may not) have this property. After many years, Riot (with the community) has found what you could call a "good" working point in the complex space of strategies: our current meta. Our meta has shown appeal, some resemblance of balance (if you discard the "outliers", i.e., top-tier champions present at every patch), and, most importantly, stability.

At this point, there are simply too many inter-related variables. You change one thing and what happens next is almost unpredictable (spaghetti code also helps a lot in this!). Wanna get rid of ADCs? Sure, make them weak objective-takers. You will just create a new meta - probably the Melee AD meta - and the cycle will repeat. And then you have to balance (starting from zero) the Melee AD meta. Is this worth? For Riot, certainly not. It's just loads of more work. Better keep the current status quo and try to balance it.

Game developers (and engineers in general), despite the knowledge we have acquired, are still humans. When the model gets too much complicated, it becomes non-linear and "chaotic" - if you know what deterministic chaos is, you are thinking the right thing, otherwise don't assume "chaotic" is used here in the everyday sense; it is a technical mathematical term, check Wikipedia Chaos Theory. And good luck balancing a new starting point (read: meta) !

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

Pure mathematics. More precisely, distribution of exp and gold.

This makes your position extremely clear. I can definitely sympathize with it, but the real problem is that Riot is (and likely will) enforce the current meta. I can understand why Riot wants to enforce the current meta. It is a very simple fact: if something basic (like the ranged vs melee example you made) was actually changed, off-meta strategies may be either flat-out impossible to balance or become extreme (too weak or too strong).

The problem is not making a single off-meta strategy (e.g. Double Jungler) viable, but making at least 2-3 of them viable. Otherwise, the strategy with the highest winning probability will emerge again and we will be back at square one. There is no guarantee that this is even possible, at all.

You must always remember that the core of this game is a set of (albeit very complex) mathematical equations. Balance is a mathematical property and equations may (or may not) have this property. After many years, Riot (with the community) has found what you could call a "good" working point in the complex space of strategies: our current meta. Our meta has shown appeal, some resemblance of balance (if you discard the "outliers", i.e., top-tier champions present at every patch), and, most importantly, stability.

At this point, there are simply too many inter-related variables. You change one thing and what happens next is almost unpredictable (spaghetti code also helps a lot in this!). Wanna get rid of ADCs? Sure, make them weak objective-takers. You will just create a new meta - probably the Melee AD meta - and the cycle will repeat. And then you have to balance (starting from zero) the Melee AD meta. Is this worth? For Riot, certainly not. It's just loads of more work. Better keep the current status quo and try to balance it.

Game developers (and engineers in general), despite the knowledge we have acquired, are still humans. When the model gets too much complicated, it becomes non-linear and "chaotic" - if you know what deterministic chaos is, you are thinking the right thing, otherwise don't assume "chaotic" is used here in the everyday sense; it is a technical mathematical term, check Wikipedia Chaos Theory. And good luck balancing a new starting point (read: meta) !

Hmm well, honestly I do not believe balancing is quite THAT difficult (for adding these other play styles). Even right now, you can't accurately predict how changes implemented will alter current game play, despite how all the changes are tested on a PBE server prior to actually being released. In terms of developing on these other styles of playing, you wouldn't have to change much. Simple things could be implemented like buffs for being in the Jungle a certain period of time while having Smite or per say a buff for two melee champions being in proximity to each other (i.e. something like ranged auto damage reduction up to 5 times after 35 seconds of being within 1200 range of one melee champion being near another, starting at -20% damage decreasing to -4%). Even if these or the tower damage reduction I mentioned before were implemented, they wouldn't destroy our current "meta" that's used however would still increase potential for other methods of playing.

These other methods all still work (except one, because of the changes made near the end of last season), they would only need minor adjustments to fully bring them up to par with the way we play right now. A thought could be, to add passive EXP gained while attacking Jungle monsters when two team members have the Smite summoner spell (obviously some type of safeguard would need implemented for abuse cases, aka hitting baron or drake just for EXP).

Riot already comes up with a lot of good (sometimes crazy) ideas, I'm sure they would be capable of handling grinding out the inconsistencies in the other methods just fine without breaking what they've already built.

Xintium1 votes

{quoted}

Hmm well, honestly I do not believe balancing is quite THAT difficult (for adding these other play styles).

Unfortunately, it is. If you don't believe me, I will just give you a small hint: define precisely balance. Precisely means that no general/vague terms, nor subjective/interpretable terms ("good", "bad", etc... they are too open and generic) and no approximate terms ("more or less", "slightly", "a bit", etc...) are acceptable.

Even right now, you can't accurately predict how changes implemented will alter current game play, despite how all the changes are tested on a PBE server prior to actually being released.

When you can't accurately predict the outcome of a system when you know both the input to the system and the system itself, that's the first sign of a chaotic (or, at the very least, non-linear) behaviour.

These other methods all still work (except one, because of the changes made near the end of last season), they would only need minor adjustments to fully bring them up to par with the way we play right now.

You are using the word "minor". This is misleading: the adjustment itself could be minor, but the consequences of the adjustment might not be "minor" at all. Ever heard of the (very famous) butterfly effect?

Riot already comes up with a lot of good (sometimes crazy) ideas, I'm sure they would be capable of handling grinding out the inconsistencies in the other methods just fine without breaking what they've already built.

They also have come up with the most broken things I have ever seen in this game. Some examples: the first rework of Mordekaiser, which was a "living abuse" of the EXP math (in Worlds 2015, Mordekaiser was almost 100% banned); Gangplank first rework (the barrels were outright broken); Runeglaive Ezreal; Kalista... just... Kalista (pre-nerfs); pre-build-nerfs Jhin "one crit to rule them all"; Malzahar rework was for a short time (he was nerfed really fast) one of the most obscene things I have ever seen (level 2 solo drake and an uncountable number of outer abuses); 2015 perma-snare Ryze; and so on and so forth.

Every example you mentioned may be abused in a way or another. And the problem is always the same: until you have safeguards against ALL possible abuses, you risk too much by implementing that change. Sooner or later, the community will discover an exploit and abuse it. But in a system where you can't accurately predict the output of a given input, it is really hard to prevent the abuse in the first place - and that's why playtests exist.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The answer to the question of do we really need marksmen is yes. The reason marksmen are in every team comp is because they are the only class that sieges turrets effectively. Melee champions have to get much closer to the turret, making them easier to force off of it or just kill by the enemy team.

Game revolves around killing turrets, so the game revolves around marksmen.

mr Boombastic7871 votes

The real question is not if we need marksmen because we do need marksmen. The real question is do we need marksmen bot? Personaly I don't think we do. A lot of players play marksmen in other roles/lanes. Top have many marksmen for example, Vayne and Quinn. Mid have some too, Varus and Ezreal. Jungle have Graves, Kindred and Twitch. You can even pick MissFortune support! These wher just to name a few but you could easely pick something else and have a marksmen top instead.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=mr Boombastic787,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=blAIAVsZ,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-11-19T17:09:25.764+0000)

The real question is not if we need marksmen because we do need marksmen. The real question is do we need marksmen bot? Personaly I don't think we do. A lot of players play marksmen in other roles/lanes. Top have many marksmen for example, Vayne and Quinn. Mid have some too, Varus and Ezreal. Jungle have Graves, Kindred and Twitch. You can even pick MissFortune support! These wher just to name a few but you could easely pick something else and have a marksmen top instead.

Yes all of that is true but you would need to make sure the champion that takes their place could Contest dragon over the wall if necessary.

mr Boombastic7872 votes

I don't know what you are talking about. No marksmen but twitch in ult can aa over the wall. Most have a ability that have more range to do it but you still have a jungler and a mid laner that also probably have some sort of ranged ability to do that. It's not like you have to have a marksmen bot to contest dragon.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Ezreal ult, Jinx ult, Jhin ult, MF ult, Caitlyn Q, Draven ult, Varus Q...these high damage quick cast AOE ranged abilities that deal enough damage to potentially steal dragon.

mr Boombastic7871 votes

Oh, I did not Think about that. xD

khorney1 votes

correction you cant do caster varus anymore with the cahnge in items and lethality

mr Boombastic7871 votes

Are u sure? I have seen some Varus players mid and it have worked out for them.

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