why don't melee carries work in league?

Big Lincoln·Nov 6, 2016·10 votes·2,821 views

title. other MOBAs seem to have no problem with them, so why is it such a hassle for riot to create one that people are generally okay with?

from what I can tell, it's mainly their lack of team utility and them just sort of being obsolete because ranged carries have safer DPS and don't really do too much less damage to make a melee worth picking, and the amount of burst+disables currently in the game makes them a risky pick

exception is but people despise him

what can riot do to make melee carries a better class, and one that they'll design more champs for in the future?

96 Comments

Meep ManNov 6, 20169 votes

Well, let's look at well known melee carries in other games:

Dota 2 Sven Why is he viable? One of the highest late game DPS in the game that is being applied AoE and has a ranged AoE stun. Plus provides a decent defensive steroid for his team. Due to how Strength works in Dota, his damage scales with items that also give him health so he becomes tankier as he deals more damage. While he is melee, his cleave effect can make him have some form of poke in lane as long as he can attack someone from the right angle. Juggernaut Basically Master Yi on steroids. He has multiple ways of becoming immune or untargetable to all or certain forms of damage, has a CC Immune effect, and also provides insane team healing through a decent duration, mobile ward that grants healing based on % max health. He also has crits, which are much more restricted in this game (something to think about as well). Slark A super slippery fish that has an ability that makes him untargetable by all means for a flat duration and also a passive that grants him absurd health regeneration while he is not seen (and tons of movement speed). He comes packed with an amazing CC cleanse and a situational crowd control that makes escaping him decently hard. Finally, his E allows him to steal stats from his opponent and convert them into bonus damage and defenses against physical damage with his basic attacks.

Heroes of the Storm Illidan Stupidly mobile and packed with tons of sustain, he is incredibly hard to 1v1 without mechanics that counter him or intense crowd control and damage. His E allows him to dodge basic attacks very often and both of his R abilities grant him even MORE mobility. He is basically a form of Jax if Jax's mobility was thrown into orbit. Samuro (Jesus christ this guy...) Samuro is VERY insane for a character. He can become invisible without fade time and that invisibility cannot be broken by damage for the first second of it. Not only that, but he comes with innate crits (which are ALSO a more restricted mechanic in this game) and can spawn clones of himself to confuse his opponent while also offering him infinitely more possibilities through more damage, split pushing, or just being meat shields.

So, after looking at five rather successful examples in other game (when they are balanced correctly), what are some common occurrences? Wel...

Most have some way to dodge or negate crowd control effects. Those that don't usually have something that they have access to later in the game to negate crowd control effects.
Most provide team utility besides just flat out shredding enemies. This can be through crowd control, meat shields, or support-like utility. Most of this utility also boosts the effectiveness of the melee carries themselves as well.
Most have a way to deal serious AoE damage. Their DPS isn't usually restricted to one target and if it is, it is absolutely insane.

So what makes a successful melee carry? Someone who can deal good sustained damage to multiple characters at the same time while also being able to combat the mechanics in the game that would stop them from doing so (crowd control). Even if behind, these characters can provide fairly decent utility to their team that isn't incredibly powerful overall, but often very powerful in certain situations. Most are also fairly durable or have mechanics to help them negate damage. The champions that currently provide these in our game are: Jax Fiora Yasuo Riven Ekko Kled Gangplank The ones that have failed so far are therefore: MasterYi Tryndamere

HOWEVER, are the Melee Carries in LoL currently designed to be healthy and fun to play against? No. Not for the style of game that LoL is. Yasuo, Fiora, Riven, and to an extent Ekko are also very annoying to play against and why? They have mechanics that make immune to damage or punishes people for damaging them! Or you are Riven and have gameplay bugs that have become a part of your character. Anyways, LoL's successful melee characters are poorly designed because they often punish most forms of retaliation towards them! None of the characters I listed above can negate damage as often as the melee carries in LoL and, if they can, it often requires certain requirements to be met or costs them DPS. Most of the successful melee carries in LoL do not suffer the same rules and therefore can sometimes just feel unfair to play against.

Sona x RubickNov 6, 20165 votes

the list goes on, but basically melee carry in dota aren't like MasterYi . they bring utility, they are either mobile or tanky, (or both at the time lul spectre) they are also hard to kill.

that's why Yasuo is working in league.

Meep ManNov 6, 20163 votes

Yeah, turns out being purely a human chainsaw isn't too good when you are so easy to shut down. I wouldn't say Yasuo is the ideal LoL melee carry though since often the ways that melee carries in other games negate damage causes them to have to give up some DPS for a decent amount of time or is on a long cool down. Yasuo kind of places down wind wall and then can do whatever he wants from there. His passive shield is also another example of this. Most melee carries in Dota that have ways of negating damage have to give up something, can't do it often, or get it through items which take time to get and therefore means the enemy team can stop them from doing so.

Critmaster GarenNov 6, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=beNFYipM,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-11-06T16:30:09.870+0000)

Yeah, turns out being purely a human chainsaw isn't too good when you are so easy to shut down. I wouldn't say Yasuo is the ideal LoL melee carry though since often the ways that melee carries in other games negate damage causes them to have to give up some DPS for a decent amount of time or is on a long cool down.

melee adc already give up range. thats a reason to put more power somewhere else in their kits, and not an additional drawback on them.

plus, their abilities are still restricted. when yasuo places his windwall hes restricted to a certain area where he can fight you to negate damage, since it doesnt move with him.

fiora stops moving for a short duration to riposte, and has to land the skillshot to make it fully effective.

yi has meditate, which does exactly what you described. he has to stop dealing damage and even moving to benefit from it.

all of these abilities are on a long cooldown for this game.

Meep ManNov 6, 20161 votes

Ok, but compare to them to other abilities.

Yasuo: Instant projectile negation and innate shield. The projectile negation is limited to the area it is placed down.

Fiora: Root and become immune to ALL effects for a short duration before firing a damaging projectile. If hit by crowd control, also stuns the target if hit.

Juggernaut: Cannot basic attack or cast other abilities for a few seconds in order to negate most spells and crowd control effects and deal damage around him that does NOT scale. Also has untargetability with extreme damage for a few seconds, but on a large cool down and requires a target to use. Unreliable if minions or other units are nearby and puts him in danger within the enemy team if he doesn't obliterate them during the duration.

What I am saying is most successful LoL melee carries have an instant "SCREW YOUR SPELLS" without any decent DPS buffer or drawback. Master Yi DOES have to do this, BUT he isn't successful since he is so easy to shut down by crowd control. Basically, Melee Carries are really hard to design since you don't want Yasuo's "SCREW YOUR SPELLS" type of ability but want something more reliable than Yi's Meditate that can be interrupted.

Critmaster GarenNov 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=beNFYipM,comment-id=00060000000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-06T17:13:07.689+0000)

Ok, but compare to them to other abilities.

Yasuo: Instant projectile negation and innate shield. The projectile negation is limited to the area it is placed down.

Fiora: Root and become immune to ALL effects for a short duration before firing a damaging projectile. If hit by crowd control, also stuns the target if hit.

Juggernaut: Cannot basic attack or cast other abilities for a few seconds in order to negate most spells and crowd control effects and deal damage around him that does NOT scale. Also has untargetability with extreme damage for a few seconds, but on a large cool down and requires a target to use. Unreliable if minions or other units are nearby and puts him in danger within the enemy team if he doesn't obliterate them during the duration.

What I am saying is most successful LoL melee carries have an instant "SCREW YOUR SPELLS" without any decent DPS buffer or drawback.

it dosnt make sense to compare dota and lol 1:1.

dota has turn speeds, which is a gigantic offset to ranged kiting. which makes range in dota not as effective as in league. in turn the compensaion for the lack of range in league has to be equally large.

Meep ManNov 6, 20161 votes

At the same time, Ranged in Dota have much more powerful carry effects than in League. While kiting isn't as amazing in Dota, they come packed with some absurd effects to offset the fact. See: Sniper, Medusa, Arc Warden, Weaver, Outworld Devourer, Morphling, etc.

Sniper has absurd range and has the closest things to stuns on his basic attacks without actually being stuns. Medusa has tons of damage reduction and an area of effect stun. Arc Warden can flat out double himself. Weaver has essentially Ekko's ultimate that is better in some ways and can duplicate basic attacks (plus has invisibility). Outworld Devourer steals mana and spell damage in order to increase the damage being dealt by his Pure damage basic attacks (as well as having an insane AoE nuke). Morphling... dear god.

Critmaster GarenNov 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=beNFYipM,comment-id=0006000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-11-06T17:26:25.013+0000)

At the same time, Ranged in Dota have much more powerful carry effects than in League. While kiting isn't as amazing in Dota, they come packed with some absurd effects to offset the fact. See: Sniper, Medusa, Arc Warden, Weaver, Outworld Devourer, Morphling, etc.

dont carries in dota actually suck until the very lategame?

and not like in league where they already bully melee champions around in lane?

Meep ManNov 6, 20161 votes

Depends on who you are talking about, in a similar sense to League. Being Ranged is an insane advantage during the laning phase in Dota since you can deny from a range and poke mostly for free since mana is MUCH more valuable in Dota and harder to regenerate. In Dota, due to how mana works, you basically have a VERY limited number of tries to kill someone early game before your mana has run out. If they don't die to an all in, chances are they have a Healing Salve to regenerate about 75% of their health.

Critmaster GarenNov 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=beNFYipM,comment-id=000600000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-06T17:30:16.550+0000)

Depends on who you are talking about, in a similar sense to League. Being Ranged is an insane advantage during the laning phase in Dota since you can deny from a range and poke mostly for free since mana is MUCH more valuable in Dota and harder to regenerate.

youre still trying to compare characters from games with entirely different mechanics.

ability power and ability scalings (even the ones of adc) dont exist in dota, turn rate doesnt exist in league. this changes how the characters scale throughout a game, and the environment they have to work in.

turn rate alone is a big factor that gives ranged kiting an inherent drawback in dota, that doesnt exist in league. so a melee adc in league has to compensate for that disadvantage with his kit, since the game doesnt do it for him.

if you want to discuss melee carries in league, technically youd also have to include juggernauts in the discussion, as theyre just a different form of melee carry with less mobility and outplay potential, and more raw defense in return.

Meep ManNov 6, 20161 votes

Ok, yes! That is true! They do have to be compensated, but the AMOUNT THEY HAVE TO BE COMPENSATE is the main issue. They have to be compensated so much that the ability they are given to combat this drawback that is instant turn rate for Ranged often feels like completely bullshit to play against and therefore, Melee Carries in LoL currently aren't in a good spot since they will either feel HORRIBLE to play against or be completely useless outside of extremely low tier play. Now, I am NOT saying Ranged in LoL is broken, but I am saying that Riot hasn't found a way for Melee carries to compete with Ranged outside of just uber powerful defensive cool downs that feel awful to play against.

Critmaster GarenNov 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=beNFYipM,comment-id=00060000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-06T17:38:46.373+0000)

Now, I am NOT saying Ranged in LoL is broken

i do. because the advantage range gives you in this game also feels like bullshit. which becomes especially apparant in range vs. melee lane matchups.

theyre usually complete stomps to either side and nowhere close to even.

either the melee champ rolls entirely over the ranged champ, or the ranged champ kites the melee champ without a chance to fight back.

Jax CramerNov 6, 20168 votes

Because the advantage of being able to do damage from the safety of range is too huge right now.

Ark SorcererNov 7, 20161 votes

That is why their offense, defense, magic res, and health is garbage. The idea is suppose to be if you can get to and stick to a range champ, you can butcher them. Not the case in this game.

LordGeovanniNov 8, 20161 votes

Supposed to be garbage except over long periods of fighting

Ark SorcererNov 8, 20161 votes

I mean as a base stat. As a stat, melee champs are suppose to exceed range champs naturally as a stat in Damage, Defense, and health. You are correct in combat but I mean as a stat.

LordGeovanniNov 8, 20161 votes

well yea its supposed to be slighty worse than melee characters because they are ranged and can hit first and keep hitting from a long range but riot appearently doesnt see it that way that is why you can lose half your health getting to a ranged carry (adc or mage) and they dont even have to run to finish you off but they still have the tools to run and or keep you off of them Not saying they cant have those tools but the people who do balance are bad at keeping ranged carries from being oppressive so they seem to balance from the ranged carrys oppressive strength side but only allow some melee carries to keep up with them and leave a majority out in the cold

Irelia BotNov 6, 20168 votes

Because riot for some reason decided to make ranged champs have no real downsides like turn speed limiting their kiting.

Done25Nov 6, 20167 votes

Marksmen are simply too strong atm. There's simply no room for the likes of Yi when Vayne exists.

dakota saturnNov 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen are simply too strong atm. There's simply no room for the likes of Yi when Vayne exists.

Huh? Yi destroys vayne in 2 auto's. Yeah if he's going to run down like straight into her like an idiot he's going to get killed. If he plays the champion properly and either Alpha Strikes her condemn or waits for her to use it on someone else, he eats her in less than a second.

LordGeovanniNov 6, 20165 votes

cause adcs always travel alone and there is only 1 cc to worry about in the game

RequiemsfireNov 7, 20161 votes

Yi's a pretty unhealthy champion in general, he's built like a solo carry with an instant gap closer and after that all he can do is mow down as many enemies he can with auto attacks before he goes down. His whole gameplay pattern is about pubstomping or cleaning up in team fights with no utility to offer.

XonraNov 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen are simply too strong atm. There's simply no room for the likes of Yi when Vayne exists.

Marksman are only a piece of the problem.

CC is the root problem, and range damage is just the tag team partner.

If it was just ADCS, the likes of Yi would just jump in and kill them and be done with it. But if they can't even get past say, the CC from the support, cc from the mid laner, and possible CC from...well everyone at this point half the time, then Yi is neutralized and that's that. If he can't even get to the person to do his job, then it wouldn't matter if Riot just gave Yi double damage .

Sire HippingtonNov 6, 20164 votes

The main thing is that ranged carries are that god damn strong. Why bother with a melee carry if a ranged carry offers more than enough damage aswell as some utillity all while haveing the safety off range? In order to perform as well as ranged acrries, they'd need to have pretty huge numbers and strong utillity skills that allow atleast them selfs to survive. However, whenever that is the case, the comunnity bitches about how unfair those champs are(old trynda, yi with chainning alphas, Yasuo, old fiora with press R for penta), and, which is a big issue, those champions tend to be absurd splitpushers so they tend to have rather low interaction playstyles later on where they just splitpush and avoid teamfights.

If ranged damage output wasn't that absurd, melees wouldn't need as absurd defensive mechanics and damage/utillity on their own to do anything in teamfights. If you get hit by any cc as not that tanky squishy, you just die. In other mobas, there are usually more anti cc options. Dota for example has an olaf ult on a stick(melees only). Also, in most other mobas, melees get more tanky whle still haveing as much or more damage and utillity as ranged champs.

Lol would need more melee only items that help withstanding burst and cc in teamfights, and damage overall, especially from ranged champions, needs to be tuned down. As long as ranged carries have more than enough damage to tear down entier teams, there is no point in having a melee carry.

Ark SorcererNov 7, 20162 votes

Or balance them better like an MMO would. Like the natural stats of a melee champ (HP, Defense, Offense) exceed everything of a range champ. But you get about 500 HP, if even that, more than range champs. I think just having these champs have better natural stats would help a long way. I am tired of looking at champs and see a physical damage melee, magic melee, phy. range, and magic range have the same armour and mr. It agitates me how Riot doesn't know how to balance classes well.

Wait! I forgot! This is a MOBA. Does that mean anything?

MunchCrunchLunchNov 6, 20164 votes

because items in league scale as well with melee as ranged and base stats are pretty much the same across the board so ranged champions have an upperhand without any drawbacks.

as far as i know in most other games ranged characters either have their own items to purchase or simply have a lot less base stats or the items scale differently with them.

Ark SorcererNov 7, 20162 votes

Someone explain to me how the hell a range physical damage dealer base stat is the same as a melee physical damage dealer. How is that balanced? That is like an archerer in a MMO given the same stats as a Fighter. Wait! I forgot! This is Riot! Sorry. Carry on. Otherwise the item is fine, I suppose, but still annoying.

AnonagonNov 7, 20164 votes

Melee carries aren't a bad class in League. Excluding the three outdated "right click to win" melee carries (Yi, Trynd, and Jax), they're the most well designed in terms of having unique identities, having unique reasons to pick each one, and having counterplay.

They work - they just don't really work as a substitute for a ranged carry in the duo lane or as your team's sole sustained damage output.

That could be changed though, mainly by lowering the damage ranged carries do across the board (which is something that I know a lot of people on here would love to happen) or perhaps by doing a universal autoattack range reduction for ranged champions (another thing boards would be giddy for). The first option would probably come down to reducing the raw damage of a crit build's multiplicative scaling and buffing mADC steroids to compensate - but this has a risk. If you just reduce the raw damage ranged carries deal with crit, there's less of a downside to going alternate DPS builds that are better at other things - having higher raw AD for abilities and for structure damage, more lifesteal, CDR, and defensive stats, etc.

Big LincolnNov 7, 20161 votes

yeah, i worded op poorly

i wanted to know why they can't function as a replacement for ranged and why they seem to be niche picks at best

AnonagonNov 7, 20161 votes

I imagine that if you built a dedicated team comp around one of the melee carries (in particular for this, probably Fiora or Yasuo, maybe GP or Kled) you could make it work without a ranged carry. You'd just have to figure out a couple of problems:

Where is the champ being played, and where do you put what other kind of champ would have been in that role?
Who goes bottom lane in place of a standard rADC?
How do you solve the issue of siege?

now that we're talking about it, I'm going to do a little theorycrafting and come up with some options

Big LincolnNov 7, 20161 votes

the only mADC i could imagine having some decent siege is gangplank because.. well, he has range. lol

i wish there was more team utility amongst the class as well. even Fiora's heal is really only for herself in most situations, and the only one with hard CC is conditional on two strikes and then a skillshot. Juggernauts just aren't allowed to have CC either, which I personally don't agree with; I think if it were short-ranged and had a long cooldown (but was appropriately heavy in its disabling) it wouldn't be too bad.

AnonagonNov 7, 20161 votes

well, the siege problem is solved by either running a mage who can take towers well (hello, Ziggs!), running an rADC but with a sort of dedicated tower-taking and utility build (high AD and CDR, probably Ashe, Kalista, Varus, maybe Jhin or MF) or by running a champ with a way to easily break a siege or win a fight under enemy towers (Taric ulti for whole team towerdives?)

Critmaster GarenNov 6, 20163 votes

they do work. people in low/mid elo rating just think theyre frustrating to play against because of their outplay potential and complicated kits.

Yasuo Fiora MasterYi

work perfectly fine.

yis only problem is, that he stomps low divisions when hes a decent champion in high divisions. but generally speaking if he were buffed, he could be a functioning and balanced melee adc just like the other two.

Tryndamere is just straight up outdated design, and his kit is a mess.

Russian DollNov 6, 20162 votes

BECAUSE WE'RE STUCK IN MINIONS AND DIE BEFORE WE CAN REACH THEIR CARRIES lol

SerevasNov 6, 20162 votes

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Most melee carries will jump in to do damage, get CCed and blown up instantly.

Sustained melee damage is typically awful, that's why most melees that are successful are burst oriented, very tanky, or both.

If you have to just stand there and auto attack a character you're going to have a bad time. It's why Aatrox sits in the trash can still.

Big LincolnNov 6, 20161 votes

what can riot do to fix this? is it a problem with champion kits and melee carries having no means of sticking power/helping their team, or can we fix this with itemization dedicated to them?

SerevasNov 7, 20161 votes

Perhaps more mixed items where there's some tankiness available, while still getting damage. It's more of a bruiser build path, but it allows melee damage to survive a bit more, I think this on demand spell shield coming with the assassin rework might be a good place to start, but we'll see how that all happens.

grittedbladeNov 7, 20161 votes

one of the main problems for itemizing for melee carries is that unless the item is listed as melee only if its any good it has a good chance of ending up being used to power up ranged champs even more.

Ark SorcererNov 7, 20161 votes

The Hydra Weapons then? I recall only Hurricane bein ranged only soo...

ItsOrvalNov 8, 20162 votes

Because in League, you gotta stand right next to them to hit them. Good luck doing that when every squishy ranged champ has sometime type of escape.

TeemoXNidaleeNov 8, 20162 votes

Because lol designers for some reason give no penalties to ranged champions.

In dota, for example, many items have their passives/actives stronger on melee and weaker on ranged.

MarshbouyNov 6, 20161 votes

Melee carries in league are usually either mediocre or incredibly OP. I'd rather have riot not try to make more melee carries viable.

Big LincolnNov 6, 20161 votes

im asking why that is, though

is it because they have no utility, only damage? is range just too OP? do they not have itemization that caters to them enough?

MarshbouyNov 6, 20162 votes

Because they are intentionally being kept mediocre because they were too prominent earlier in the season, or just because ranged champions stopped having tradeoffs for being ranged...?

Or something.

Ark SorcererNov 7, 20161 votes

If I were to guess, Riot doesn't know how to balance_ classes_. The difference between melees and ranges base stats with AD and armour are not big. I know LoL is a MOBA, but if it followed a MMO with class balances, tanks having highest natural HP and Armour (And MR), Assassins having the best physical damage (singal target or burst), Fighters a fixture of good HP/Def and Offensive, Duelest having the highest evasion and attack speed, mages having the highest magic damage, and rangers just having the highest range and everything else would be fine. (I know I added duelist which isn't a class in LoL but you get my point). But we don't. The differences are small, so small that at lv 18 with full builds with no additional armour or mr, it doesn't matter. I can come up with more reasons why id you reply back but I will just leave it as that for now.