Cinderhulk era showed us that when tanks can front-line, every other role can then have value

PapaGreg21·Jun 26, 2018·122 votes·17,841 views

This should be the first step to fixing the game. Give tanks defensive stats and that will make ADC's and supports valuable again for their DPS, which will make mages and assassins important for outdueling adc's, which will in turn create a purpose for fighters. If tanks don't have a strong role, everything else falls apart. True damage, nerfs to the health of tanks items (and champions), and a lack of viability with the scuttle changes and low exp in jungle have shifted the meta into chaos and everyone's hands are being forced to play the new meta.

Please don't take this as a "buff tank damage" thread. Tank players just want to be able to soak and would be thrilled if that could happen. They don't have to chain cc or one shot people to be viable, but they do need to be able to front-line and have an avenue to hit 6 or get their first item without falling so far behind others that they can't contribute.

95 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerJun 26, 201876 votes

Ahh Cinderhulk meta. IMO, once they toned it and the problem users down, it was one of the most enjoyable metas to play in

EndlessSorcererJun 26, 201833 votes

That glorious period between the Sejuani/Gragas nerfs and the Juggernaut update.

Good times.

GelsominoKillerJun 26, 201835 votes

To be honest Sejuani's and Gragas' dominance plagued only competitive.

In soloQ, jungle diversity skyrocketed and the meta was very fun.

Weiss GuertenaJun 26, 20189 votes

Best two patches in the history of League until Rito did their trademark "fix what isn't broken" move.

BarcidJun 26, 20183 votes

It's what we're referring to when we say "season 5".

Right around now in season 5, the game was the most varied and balanced thing we'd had in a while. People talk about the "plague of cinderhulk" without remembering that oh right, it was balanced in the same exact season it was introduced in, and stopped being cripplingly overpowered shortly after the end of pre-season. Balance tweaks from then on were mostly made based on high-tier play while lower-tier was a confusion of "WHAT'S EVEN STRONG!? WHAT DO I ABUSE TO CLIMB!?"

Oh, right. You abuse the champ you yourself were good with and synergized with. What a concept that you didn't have to enslave yourself to the flavor of the month.

Gangplank and Fiora came in toward the end and nearly into pre-season 6, so as far as they're concerned, I'd pin them as more the turning point for when we were prepping for season 6 rather than a representation of season 5.

DanjengJun 26, 201834 votes

HOLD THE FUCK UP.

Are you seriously suggesting that tanks be able to tank?

pseudo dionysiusJun 26, 201832 votes

I feel like a fool for rallying against cinderhulk tank meta. Game was in a way better state back then than it is now.

MarothennanJun 26, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=cyber heckler ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PM7nIEnn,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-26T03:31:36.260+0000)

I feel like a fool for rallying against cinderhulk tank meta. Game was in a way better state back then than it is now.

It was, but not because of the cinderhulk meta

ThefrostyvikingJun 26, 201812 votes

[{quoted}](name=cyber heckler ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PM7nIEnn,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-26T03:31:36.260+0000)

I feel like a fool for rallying against cinderhulk tank meta. Game was in a way better state back then than it is now.

Cinderhulk meta at its peak was truly bad.

Cinderhulk meta post peak but still in effect was good.

ZerglingOneJun 26, 20189 votes

Tanks should be dangerous to attack because doing so would detract from hitting a priority damage target... Not because they can solo skullfuck you.

Serika ZeroJun 26, 20188 votes

won't work now because tanks have to high base damages. so, if they could actually tank, the only people capable of killing them (adcs most likely, or dps mages), they could just dive those targets and kill them before they die. which will just simply switch the meta to everyone playing tanks and most people find tanks boring

they need a complete overhaul of: tank base damage on their abilities and tank items, to make anything like this possible and this won't happen unless its preseason or another "bath update" like assassins or juggernauts, etc.

and again, chances are they will fuck it up. I also like to remind everyone of: Tank Ekko, Tank Akali, Tank Fizz and similar things that were played during the "mighty cynderhulk meta"

ParoeJun 26, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PM7nIEnn,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-06-26T08:06:41.204+0000)

won't work now because tanks have to high base damages. so, if they could actually tank, the only people capable of killing them (adcs most likely, or dps mages), they could just dive those targets and kill them before they die. which will just simply switch the meta to everyone playing tanks and most people find tanks boring

they need a complete overhaul of: tank base damage on their abilities and tank items, to make anything like this possible and this won't happen unless its preseason or another "bath update" like assassins or juggernauts, etc.

and again, chances are they will fuck it up. I also like to remind everyone of: Tank Ekko, Tank Akali, Tank Fizz and similar things that were played during the "mighty cynderhulk meta"

"tanks have high base damage"? What? Are you saying gragas and renekton are tanks? Theyre bruisers. Honestly, this whole "WAAAH TANKS HurT" thing is... not real? Its generally people building bruiser who do all this 'damage'. And calling a bruiser a tank just gets actual tanks hurt.

The difference betwen 1000 damage in two seconds and 1000 damage in 10 seconds is huge, but because tanks dont die in that extra time people whine that they do to much damage.

Serika ZeroJun 26, 201812 votes

here's maokai: a tank, that's not even being played right now

Q: 225 with 5 seconds cooldown W: 150 with 9 seconds cooldown E: 250 + 16% max hp with 11 seconds cooldown R: 300

So, his bases go up to 925 + 16% max hp damage from base damages. Adcs hp at lv18, lets take cait: 2028 hp.

16% out of 2028 is 324, lets round it up to 325 to make the numbers more round. 925+325 = 1250 damage. From only base damage. Add a sunfire cape, and that adc dies the second time Q comes up. And that Q will come up in like 4 seconds because CDR is on everything.

Very easy, very simple. Thanks have to high bases. And as you can see, its not 1000 damage in 10 seconds, its 1250 damage in 2 seconds.

That's where the "WHAAAAAAH TANKS HurT" comes from. They have to high base damages. And they will dive squishies and they won't be able to do anything against them the moment tank items are relevant. And not only that, assassins again will build tank, I'll remind you again, tank ekko and tank fizz and tank akali were a thing when tank items were somewhat better.

So, its not only tanks riot will have problem balancing, its also assassins which will build 1 offensive item like trinity or gunblade, and then go full tank. Feel free to search for tank fizz, tank ekko, etc and see how disgusting the game was when tank items were relevant.

Or you can downvote me and say that I'm wrong and that my math is bad and i can't do addition :)

ParoeJun 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PM7nIEnn,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-06-26T08:54:59.001+0000)

here's maokai: a tank, that's not even being played right now

Q: 225 with 5 seconds cooldown W: 150 with 9 seconds cooldown E: 250 + 16% max hp with 11 seconds cooldown R: 300

So, his bases go up to 925 + 16% max hp damage from base damages. Adcs hp at lv18, lets take cait: 2028 hp.

16% out of 2028 is 324, lets round it up to 325 to make the numbers more round. 925+325 = 1250 damage. From only base damage. Add a sunfire cape, and that adc dies the second time Q comes up. And that Q will come up in like 4 seconds because CDR is on everything.

Very easy, very simple. Thanks have to high bases. And as you can see, its not 1000 damage in 10 seconds, its 1250 damage in 2 seconds.

That's where the "WHAAAAAAH TANKS HurT" comes from. They have to high base damages. And they will dive squishies and they won't be able to do anything against them the moment tank items are relevant. And not only that, assassins again will build tank, I'll remind you again, tank ekko and tank fizz and tank akali were a thing when tank items were somewhat better.

So, its not only tanks riot will have problem balancing, its also assassins which will build 1 offensive item like trinity or gunblade, and then go full tank. Feel free to search for tank fizz, tank ekko, etc and see how disgusting the game was when tank items were relevant.

Or you can downvote me and say that I'm wrong and that my math is bad and i can't do addition :)

Maokai is a bruiser. Bruisers have high base damage and decent scaling with CC and mobility. I understand your confusion, the line between tank and bruiser is extremely blurred as tank itemization is a general "catch all" and not really niche... Not like cleaver and titanic hydra, which are bruiser items.

Heres a quick little thing; Fighters prefer AD and resistances. Bruisers prefer AD and HP. Juggernauts prefer AD and HP. Tanks prefer HP and resistances.

Down to your "tank assassins" thing... As far as i recall, they built bruiser and not tank. Further, they only worked because the few damage items they DID buy were extremely effective and their base damage was high enough that they could destroy squishies. Its a symptom of THEM being strong, not another classes itemization.

GinoSoldierJun 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Maokai is a bruiser. Bruisers have high base damage and decent scaling with CC and mobility. I understand your confusion, the line between tank and bruiser is extremely blurred as tank itemization is a general "catch all" and not really niche... Not like cleaver and titanic hydra, which are bruiser items.

Heres a quick little thing; Fighters prefer AD and resistances. Bruisers prefer AD and HP. Juggernauts prefer AD and HP. Tanks prefer HP and resistances.

Down to your "tank assassins" thing... As far as i recall, they built bruiser and not tank. Further, they only worked because the few damage items they DID buy were extremely effective and their base damage was high enough that they could destroy squishies. Its a symptom of THEM being strong, not another classes itemization.

Also, his math is terribly, terribly wrong because not only his current calculations would not kill Cait, it requires Maokai to hit every ability and ignores both Caitlyn's probable Lifesteal and own resistances. If Cait bought a Mercurial Scepter, Maokai isn't getting anywhere to begin with.

Though; I also disagree with your statement that Maokai is a bruiser. I feel like he's a tank that's been mangled by the 'tank' update that ended up giving extra damage to champions that didn't quite want or need any.

AmocJun 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Also, his math is terribly, terribly wrong because not only his current calculations would not kill Cait, it requires Maokai to hit every ability and ignores both Caitlyn's probable Lifesteal and own resistances. If Cait bought a Mercurial Scepter, Maokai isn't getting anywhere to begin with.

Though; I also disagree with your statement that Maokai is a bruiser. I feel like he's a tank that's been mangled by the 'tank' update that ended up giving extra damage to champions that didn't quite want or need any.

The math isn't really far off. He's auto-attacking throughout, Cait is getting knocked-up and Sunfire is ticking against her.

Also, if Cait has Mercurial Scimitar, let's say that Mao has Thornmail or something.

Either way, Maokai's job isn't really assassinating Cait. He's jumping her and his combo will drop her down to the point where casual damage from his team will kill her.

Serika ZeroJun 26, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Maokai is a bruiser.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/HAQtAoTH-mid-season-tanks-update-maokai

{quoted}

Heres a quick little thing; Fighters prefer AD and resistances. Bruisers prefer AD and HP. Juggernauts prefer AD and HP. Tanks prefer HP and resistances.

Maokai's scalings: Periodically Maokai's next basic attack, after a 0.25-seconds delay, against a non-structure heals him for 5 - 65 (based on level) (+ 6% - 13% (based on level) maximum health).

Passive: %max hp. Q: 65 / 105 / 145 / 185 / 225 (+ 40% AP); ap W: 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+ 40% AP); ap E: 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 (+ 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 / 16% (+ 2% per 100 AP) of target's maximum health); ap + target max hp R: 150 / 225 / 300 (+ 75% AP); ap source: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Maokai

I rest my case.

Also

Down to your "tank assassins" thing... As far as i recall, they built bruiser and not tank. Further, they only worked because the few damage items they DID buy were extremely effective and their base damage was high enough that they could destroy squishies. Its a symptom of THEM being strong, not another classes itemization.

the thing is, ekko for example, has only seen a lot of play and is unbearable OP not when assassin items exist, but when tank items are relatively strong. Likewise for Fizz. While Akali has been Akali forever since she does sortoff drain tank anyway post gunblade. Maybe, just maybe, if these "assassins" are only super strong, when TANK items are good (NOT ASSASSIN ITEMS), then maybe, just maybe, the problem is either with the tank items, or riot's phylosophy of assassins or both (i'm going with both).

And to the gino soldier below. I also ignored the fact that maokai auto attacks, and that he has any ap, or that his runes do damage (hint: aftershock, grasp, etc) or that he will have tornmail, and probably a few more things i don't recall right now. Also Cait won't get away with a QSS. Maokai has: Snare, into knock-up into snare into slow (W -> Q -> R- > E), and you'll get hit by all of them as W is point and click and puts maokai in your face, even if you qss that, he will Q you and knock you up to set you up for R and E. He is a tank... he has CC on everything except his passive, he is supposed to disrupt and control the enemies and make engages happen.

edit: you are correct, the assassins in my examples build like bruiser, as in, an offensive item or two and then defensive. But they can only afford to do this when the defensive items are strong enough, and those defensive items are tank items.

French CourtesanJun 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Maokai is a bruiser.

Maokai is WHAT? Last time I checked, bruisers were supposed to be immobile powerhouses that should be CC down. Maokai has : Dash, invulnerabality, snare size of lane. Bruisers have no dashes, no CC unless already in range for auto attack, have no reliable sustain. If Maokai is bruisers, then he is the best bruiser in the whole fucking class.

Bruisers have high base damage and decent scaling with CC and mobility.

Bruisers have what? high base damage? Dariuses top hitting spell on level 9 has 160 base damage. Thats 15 lower than maokai on level 7. Decent scalling? Thats the only thing they have because his Q scales with 140% of AD. If you dont have the classes mixed up then idk what you are even talking about. Decent CC? Oh you mean Dariuses pull with pathetic range he will never get before dying? Or you mean garens silence? Or perhaps fucking mordekaisers nothing. Only bruiser with CC is Skarner. Rest are pathetic. Also what the fuck do you mean mobility? Darius has no mobility at all, morde is second slowest champion in the game. Garen and Skarner have move speed buffer. Are you sure you dont mean tanks? Because tanks are exactly what you described, not bruisers.

I understand your confusion, the line between tank and bruiser is extremely blurred as tank itemization is a general "catch all" and not really niche... Not like cleaver and titanic hydra, which are bruiser items.

No you dont understand my confusion. Because you are still firmly certain that Maokai is not tank.

Heres a quick little thing; Fighters prefer AD and resistances. Bruisers prefer AD and HP. Juggernauts prefer AD and HP.

ok but

Tanks prefer HP and resistances.

This is exactly what Maokai builds. Last time I saw RoA maokai, I was smurfing in bronze.

Down to your "tank assassins" thing... As far as i recall, they built bruiser and not tank. Further, they only worked because the few damage items they DID buy were extremely effective and their base damage was high enough that they could destroy squishies. Its a symptom of THEM being strong, not another classes itemization.

No. If they werent problem before cinderhulk, something was wrong with cinderhulk. Wanna know what? Getting hit by 40 damage per second for standing close to someone who plays braindead champion, builds cheap items that help him stand close to you longer, is not fair. Sunfire cape is single most cancerous item of top lane and they should remove it because it does not show how skilled you are in game. It only shows that you can buy free damage to all for mere fucking 2600 gold? SERIOUSLY?

kile147Jun 26, 20182 votes

Nah man, you are right. Add in Electrocute or one of the other damage runes in there and it might even be a 1 combo kill, but this is why most people are calling to a decrease in all damage as well. It's obviously not as simple as just buffing tank items, but making systemic changes to push us towards a meta where tank junglers and tank top laners are good is good for the health of the game overall.

SennaFirstPickJun 26, 20186 votes

yeah but thats at lvl 18, ofcourse it sounds busted

AmocJun 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

"tanks have high base damage"? What? Are you saying gragas and renekton are tanks? Theyre bruisers. Honestly, this whole "WAAAH TANKS HurT" thing is... not real? Its generally people building bruiser who do all this 'damage'. And calling a bruiser a tank just gets actual tanks hurt.

The difference betwen 1000 damage in two seconds and 1000 damage in 10 seconds is huge, but because tanks dont die in that extra time people whine that they do to much damage.

It's real. Tanks like Sion and Ornn do loads of damage and never have to buy a single offensive item.

Neptunia xoxoJun 26, 20187 votes

Yeah so balanced. Unkillable Mundo Shyvana ect while they are doing a million damage. Nah that meta was horrible and should never ever be brought back.

GayFluffyUnicornJun 27, 20181 votes

What's the difference to now?

Soaz on mundo just walking through the enemy team and killing them by just walking around them.

Better nerf camille guys. Don't want some outplays or mechanical skill displayed.

We also don't want the camera to ever show toplane because its ornn vs cho anyways and noone wants to watch that.

DoktorKaiserJun 26, 20185 votes

In season 2 I used to ult with Malphite to zone the ADC for 10-15 seconds to give my team a chance at killing the rest of them. Now I go in to 1 shot the guy, if I don't manage to do that I will die to him in 2-3 seconds. That is where the fucking problem is. NERF THE GODDAMN DAMAGE ALREADY ITS SO OBVIOUS !!!!!!!!!

BigFBearJun 26, 20182 votes

15 Seconds? Nah... I don't think so.

five oh tree Jun 26, 20185 votes

Ah yes, tank jg/ tank top/ tank supp required with dps apc mid and tank shredder adc every game. super refreshing. super fun. very diverse.

PapaGreg21Jun 26, 20182 votes

Top and Support didn't take cinderhulk during that time you ninny. The whole reason it was popular was because of the jungle item actually letting people frontline fairly well.

five oh tree Jun 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Top and Support didn't take cinderhulk during that time you ninny. The whole reason it was popular was because of the jungle item actually letting people frontline fairly well.

Did I... ever say they took cinderhulk?

No, I did not.

3 tanks were essentially required, with the jungler taking cinderhulk and gaining insane clear speed. Occasionally, top laners such as mundo and shyv tried to abuse cinderhulk + red smite, but other than that it was mostly the junglers abusing it. It was not popular because it let people, "frontline fairly well." It was popular because it gave insane clear speeds and made their midgame virtually unstoppable because it also provided them with the damage to run carries down. It was either take a tank jg or you're trolling. If you didn't take a tank top you were taking a juggernaut, and if you didn't take either of them you were playing a risky game with almost no reward. Supports were based around somehow trying to get their adc to survive 8s of straight CC or just picking another tank.

It wasn't some glorious, healthy meta. It was slow, made any non-tanky melee irrelevant, (except fizz, sometimes) and was genuinely boring. All the carries died in teamfights and the 2-3 tanks left on both sides couldn't really kill each other so games lasted an excessive amount of time. It didn't promote much skill expression. ADCs basically couldn't kill tanks til 35+ minutes and were always susceptible to being solo killed by the random amumu/sejuani/maokai/etc jungle.

Tanks were not "frontlining;" they were diving backlines and murdering them. Any mistakes they made were brushed off because their defense was so much stronger than damage builds for essentially the entire game. Diversity was great if you happen to forget any champ who struggled against tanks for more than 10 minutes of the game (a very large portion of the roster) was turned into a troll pick.

C9 Squeeky Jun 26, 20184 votes

Make conditioning rune like Gathering Storm, but for resistances.

The Space CowboyJun 26, 20184 votes

This plus tower buffs = perfection

TakaDamaJun 26, 20183 votes

I know this isn't the main point of this thread, but in terms of the jungle, tanks have such atrocious clear speeds, particularly with scuttle crab not working with talisman (same applies to mages and other roles that don't rely on auto attacks).

I actually wouldn't mind separate starting jg items for each role. Like mages could have an old doran's for jg only, ad champions can keep machete, and talisman may also give bonus gold upon killing jg camps (to this effect, it would help tanks reach their core quicker).

PapaGreg21Jun 26, 201825 votes

Ideally tanks would have slow clears but stay very healthy while damage champs would risk getting very low health but be able to quickly clear. Of course none of that matters now because jungle exp is too low to stay pace with the rest of the field unless you snowball ganks at level 2 which bottlenecks who is meta to about 8 champs right now in that role.

RekSai CoffeeCoJun 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ideally tanks would have slow clears but stay very healthy while damage champs would risk getting very low health but be able to quickly clear. Of course none of that matters now because jungle exp is too low to stay pace with the rest of the field unless you snowball ganks at level 2 which bottlenecks who is meta to about 8 champs right now in that role.

Couldn't have said it better about lack of diversity these last 3 patches have caused the jungle.

BobaFlautistJun 26, 20183 votes

No, not every role...fighters are weak in a tank meta.

PapaGreg21Jun 26, 20181 votes

That's not true. Fighters are important for split pushing and objectives because of the low wave clear of tanks. They are also the most effective at defeating assassins. Assassins would otherwise dive the adc and leave because a front-line is rarely effective against them.

BobaFlautistJun 26, 20182 votes

No, a solid Frontline is an assassin's nightmare. The way assassins work in league, they're useless if the enemy team has 2+burly, cc-heavy tanks.

PapaGreg21Jun 26, 20182 votes

Only if the assassin attacks from the front

Risen29Jun 26, 20183 votes

This is all true.

The entire MMORPG dynamic the game was base on falls apart when tanks can't tank. They are the foundation of the team dynamic.

Tanks are the reasons you need ADCs to burn down the enemy's tank. ADCs are the reason you need assassins.
Assassins are the reason you need fighters and tanks.

Mages and Supports tend to not directly counter any one role type, but bring necessary utility and versatility.

Pandemic PunchJun 26, 20183 votes

Tanks need significantly more survivability, low damage to champions, and reasonable damage to minions and monsters

CauseSCIENCEJun 26, 20182 votes

I agree, there are so many bruiser tanks with way too much damage compared to others, there are hardly any real tanky top lanes anymore

CeazaruJun 26, 20182 votes

As I juggernaut main who can flex to tank or mid. I have no real problem with tanks being able to do their job which is tanking but unfortunately idk if marksman mains would like that because they want to be able to have 1k autos while just standing behind some tank/s.

JanakinJun 26, 20182 votes

Honestly people I can't understand why you keep posting these kinds of threads. Yes, you are right. But it isn't going to change anything.

muted team chatJun 26, 20182 votes

This is honestly the most fun I have had playing this game in years. Different things are viable. HAVING to have an ADC is poison.

DeusVultJun 27, 20182 votes

IMO tanks dont need buffs. Maybe slight ones. Instead, you nerf the amount of burst that is in the game. At that point, the game goes from everyone blowing each other up in 1 or less seconds to giving DPS back their "niche" aka fights that last more than one CD rotation.

Crit itemization changes were warranted, but the rest of the damage in the game didnt change with it, so everyone dropped DPS champs in favor of burst. Reduce burst and tanks/dps champs will rise in viability

TaliyahcJun 27, 20182 votes

please bring back cinderhulk meta it's so much better than this crappy meta rn.

Edge of DaybreakJun 26, 20181 votes

[deleted]

ModWulf HelhammerJun 26, 201828 votes

That wasn't the cinderhulk meta. Cinderhulk was before Juggernauts, when tanks, you know, actually just tanked stuff, and only did damage if you built damage items (thus making them less tanky)