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A lot of Zoe complaints and comparing to Nidalee

Galiö··3 votes·1,537 views

Although the comparision is pretty good maybe we can learn how to address Zoe by the way Nidalee was addressed (maybe to a lesser extent even)

Nidalee had her cast time increase during the initial throw of the spear; Zoe can get an slightly ncreased recast time on the Q2.

Nidalee had her Nuke nerfed: Zoe can get her Nuke nerfed especially since she has a Dmg Amp on her CC.

Zoes W can be compansated some Damage to make up for her Q loss and make a healthier play pattern but I think it be best to lower the MS gains due to the amount of utility the spell already Grants.

Zoes E should take slightly longer to make the target sleep and a slightly less time of being asleep (same CC time altogether but rebalanced)

This would force her trade patterns into a slightly more intractable version of her current kit while reducing E and Q potency and making her W a spell she wants to cast for trades more often for damage and slightly less utility.

If you guys had to choose one spell to be the biggest problem which would it be?

24 Comments

Pika Fox3 votes

Zoe and nidalee are not comparable. For the 10,000th time. Nidalees big thing was unrivaled mobility so you could never punish her. Zoe does not have that.

Galiö2 votes

I remember when her complaint wasnt her mobility but the 100 to 0 lvl 1 spear against your marksmen or support.

Pika Fox4 votes

{quoted}

I remember when her complaint wasnt her mobility but the 100 to 0 lvl 1 spear against your marksmen or support.

People complain about yi and zed, its not like people were any smarter back then. Nids biggest issue from a balance perspective was she had amazing poke and siege, but couldnt be punished. They nerfed her damage because her mobility was integral to her kit.

Shes since been reworked, and the solution they came up with is spear increases range of cougar execute, so she still has similar damage, just enforced in melee range.

kda akali2 votes

I play Zoe alot, i'd be fine with removing W the most. It's not really core to her identity imo, i'd rather have her main niche as high burst champion that picks off enemies rather than a champion that uses summoner spells multiple times. It's interesting but it could be better on a different champion tbh.

F Ù Ń2 votes

Ah, another person who has no idea how to play Zoe suggests terrible changes.

Galio: Oh boy, we should nerf Zoe so that way she can’t one shot like Nidalee. Lets Nerf her Q W E. We should nerf her nukes like Nidalee. And so that way her main combo feels like trash.

These changes you propose are terrible, if I offended you, sorry, but absolutely terrible changes. Nerfing her Q would make her as bad as 8.4. So the lesson is: Do. Not. Touch. Her. Q. With her W, you could possibly remove the orbs altogether, but keep the Movement Speed. And her E, the E is relatively fair. Morgana’s root is literally 3.2 seconds. Veigar’s stun is long af. Zoe’s? It allows you to somewhat move around and think. In that 2 seconds, you can position yourself behind minions, for 80% dmg reduction. Unless you were overextended. In that scenario you deserve to die. Every person with a cc would kill you. Let me name a few. Veigar, lux, Morgana, Xilean, Ahri, Hell, even Teemo with his poison dart. Zoe isn’t one shot. She required her whole kit to pull that off. If she is one shorting you, your fault. Either you fed her, or aren’t building magic resistance, like you would build armor if the enemy adc is fed

Galiö1 votes

I wanted to rebalance the E. Nerf the Q and rebalance the W. Also I know how she plays. Thanks for the input.

rtbf2234347212 votes

Nidalee was considered toxic because she could one shot (100 - 0) with one skill shot with a big range, with 100% safety and with no counter play.

But you can't compare Nidalee and Zoe . You cant use the same solutions that worked on Nidalee to fix Zoe

Nidalee is a much more complex champion and was balanced improving some other qualities of her game while tuning down her one shot potential.

Zoe was made with a kit 100% centered on landin her "q" with multiple combos and variations with the only objective of landing her "q" and score a kill, nothing more. She was created with a toxic design from scratch and she will become another Kalista type of champion; too strong (broken) or unplayable.

Galiö1 votes

Zoe isnt that complicated. You hit Q or you hit E then Q or you R to get an easier E off and then Q.

I mean that's all a lil more complicated then just throwing a spear over a wall a few times until you kill someone but its similar (not the same) but similar.

rtbf2234347212 votes

In my opinion Zoe is much more straight forward and simpler to understand and use than Nidalee .

Galiö1 votes

I agree with current iteration of Nidalee. Previous she was more complex but you could have been very successful just throwing spears 24/7 lol.

Either way I was just putting out a little of my thoughts since I sent speak of non Galio things too too often

rtbf2234347211 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Flemman1 votes

spell isn't the problem, whole kit is

nida could be "balanced" cause she had a lot of other aspect on her kit who were fair to face (force her to go melee, spell with no upfront damage)

Zoe has only 4 spell, 3 of them being damage oriented (a 2 spell burst combo and an unmissable poke ) with the last one just a mobility spell with really hard to change mechanic

Number tweek will not help zoe, she need a mini rework of one part of her kit (riot just need to chose which one)

Galiö1 votes

I think a delay to Q2 and damage red and delay until sleep on E would do wonders. Imo ( as i stated before) I think her ult for the comment above isnt all that Great and could be a weakness just as much of a strength and therefore is the weakest part of her kit.

Jaspers1 votes

Sideways thinking here but what if the problem was her ult?

As in her ult doesn't deal any damage. The reason the rest of her kit is stupid, with extra damage from the distance traveled, the bonus true damage on top of a 17 hour long stun which if it doesn't hit is a trap or the free summoner spells plus movement and damage and her passive which is just more damage, is the fact her Ult does nothing but move her a bit for a split second them move her back in a predictable fashion.

It's like a Zhonya's pressed to survive something when in reality, all you are doing is saying to Nami, Morgana or Lux, Q here.

Because of this... bam, damage and utility everywhere else.

Galiö1 votes

I kind of agree that her ult is a good set up. But it isnt the problem it just enhances the strength of her already strong kit. The E makes it's very easy to set up a Q and also amplifies the damage. Her W and passive doesnt do all that much damage and you won't be winning any fights unless you hit a good Q. Too much power is loaded into the Q (which makes it supposed to be hard to land) but it isnt and that's an issue.

So much reward for a spammable and easily set up ability.

But some people may want all of her power loaded into one thing. Idk.

Jaspers1 votes

And there lies the problem. Does her ult enhance her kit or did her kit come from the ult?

So they make her entire kit revolve around the idea of her ult forgetting that the kit in itself can be used without it and still be too much. Use Q Ult redirect to get max damage. Hit an E? Ult to make sure you have vision and range to land the Q plus it has a 4 second slow plus stun so you have time for the Ult animation to finish to land your true damage Q. Pressed Ult wrong? Here's an ability that gives you a free flash and/or movement to survive that costs no mana, plus it does damage.

Just a thought mind you, the rest of her kit is too much without it regardless.

Galiö1 votes

But underlying prob in your scenario is that she is too safe in an attempt to hit a Q... and Q is all that really matters. If u didnt have a strong Q none of that would really be strong; just slippery or annoying (if u really want to bother killing her, and no reason to really go after the kill if she is useless without the Q nuke) I'm not the best at explaining but does that make sense to where I see the issue is?

Jaspers1 votes

Perfectly, the 'nuke' from Q especially when redirected and it's distance traveled causes the issues with other parts of her kit, especially the interactions with both E and R. I'm just trying to think of another spin on her as to explain why she has so much going for her.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

Zoes W can be compansated some Damage to make up for her Q loss and make a healthier play pattern

WHAT? how is undodgeable damage that makes zoe able to kill you without aiming anything healthier? there is a fucking reason they nerfed her W damage twice in a row, it's not healthy at all

at least when zoe was released, say anything you want but if you dodged Q or E she wouldn't do anything and you would WIN

Galiö1 votes

If you hit her Q hard she won't have any damage. Where else would u put damage in her kit? Her passive? Also she has to get close for W damage which isnt to her advantage without the pressure of a million damage from a Q.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

because you SHOULD NOT hit her Q, why would you? the spell can be blocked by tanks and can be dodged

right now her W is the real problem https://snipaclip.com/watch/EnchantingDullYamKappaClaus

Galiö1 votes

Yeah and he almost killed her. If he was hit by any of those 3 whiffed Qs he woulda been dead. The MS boost is the most annoying part of all that.

Psyrix1 votes

The main argument for why Zoe can have what Nidalee couldnt, is cuz Zoe has to be within 800 units of the projectile at all times, which therefore has some risk, unlike nidalee who could throw it and walk the opposite direction, additionally, it's two casts, therefore a longer delay/reaction time. It requires two abilities to approach the range that nidalee was capable of, both of which provide an animation that u should be able to react to/proactively react to. Zoe was arguably balanced after the last nerfs to the q. However, the W quickly became an issue since it had a lot of power, especially when paired with ignite. Then, sorta like Syndra with the MYMU to her W, a slow creep began, nerfs to W and ignite is all that's really needed to balance her. Most people found her annoying, but still no longer griped as much about the Q and E (both of which are pretty easy to dodge as the q is skinny and the e is extremely telegraphed), her annoyance is the burst... but it's her identity. a trickster who bursts

I'd say the resurging annoyance is due to the W and ignite basically. The nature of getting almost 1 shot was annoying, but eventually accepted.

Subject 51 votes

When you look at a champion and see that there might be a problem, you need to look back at the idea of what the champion was suppose to be.

Zoe was suppose to be an artillery mage, who do HUGE amounts of damage from huge distances away. This is a design that is accepted by Riot and the community, HOWEVER. When you close in on an artillery mage, that means that they should be in trouble. And this is the case for Zoe. But her W negates a lot of this by too much. Her movement speed should be removed entirely from the W, and take away the RNG and make it every 2 waves or so.

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