Remove the mana gain from auto attacks in hammer form from W passive. Then maybe increase Q mana cost.
Nerfing the early game damage of a strictly early game champion seems like the wrong direction to take. You could just reduce the # of times he can Q by nerfing his mana. Ya know, the same way you guys balanced Cassiopeia? Made it so you pretty much never have the mana pool to 100-0 someone level 2 anymore.
Z3Sleeper17 votesI'm behind any nerfs to ranged top laners +1.
Kurorade14 votesNerf ranged bullies in top.
Hammermancer3 votesNerf ranged bullies in top.
Ranged top laners have a very important function which is to keep the tides of cancer from leaving top lane
Ragnaveil4 votesI mean if they get out in the first place, its on the balance team to fix that, not picks like Vlad Neeko and Ryze adding more cancer.
Hammermancer1 votesI mean if they get out in the first place, its on the balance team to fix that, not picks like Vlad Neeko and Ryze adding more cancer.
The second jayce and kennen go away Darius and Illaoi come back
Do you want to put up with that shit?
Ragnaveil2 votesThen nerf them. Like seriously. Its like playing ring around the rosie except the rose is the simple balance answer. We spend too much time buffing shit instead of nerfing shit that it makes things worse.
TheGrot2 votesThis season it has actually been more-so vice-versa. Same negative effect though. [https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/eQiPKHXE-riot-balance-team-youre-changing-your-methods-for-the-worst]
Although this is a separate discussion from the post, my personal opinion is that Riot nerfed tank top laners too hard over the years. More specifically, tank top laners that are capable of surviving or even in rare cases solo killing these ranged bullies. Examples: maokai, ornn, poppy. Having a giant meatball tank on your team can be incredibly advantageous towards late game, but after all of the nerfs that have been applied, it's just better to pick other things even if you are picking for late game. I'd bet if we saw some buffs towards some of these tank top laners that we'd see a more diverse top lane meta.
Ragnaveil1 votesWell, i'd actually nerf damage tops and buff tank tops. Stuff exists in the game for damage tops to do shit to tank tops.
Hammermancer1 votesThen nerf them. Like seriously. Its like playing ring around the rosie except the rose is the simple balance answer. We spend too much time buffing shit instead of nerfing shit that it makes things worse.
You say that, but let's be realistic. They'll let top laners go to S tier, the entire roster somehow, and they wont do anything about it for a season or more
what's better? Overbuffed tryn and fiora running amok on the rift? Or kennen poking them for 12 minutes?
Ragnaveil1 votesUh, how about neither.
Moody P8 votesimagine thinking Illaoi is or ever was OP and is only kept down by ranged top
Z3Sleeper4 votesYes? Illaoi and Darius have clear and defined counterplay.
Jayce on the other hand.
AlienPrimate1 votesDarius and Illaoi have clear and defined counterplay if you are playing a champion who can abuse that counterplay. Your choices for counterplay against them are broadly described as range or mobility. If you are an immobile melee you are flat out screwed and don't even get to play the game. I welcome the fact that ranged make Illaoi and Darius miserable. I hope they enjoy their misery just as much as a tank enjoys laning against them.
Z3Sleeper1 votesYour choices for counterplay against them are broadly described as range or mobility. If you are an immobile melee you are flat out screwed and don't even get to play the game.
??? You obviously don't play top lane immobile melees then. They don't auto-lose whatsoever.
Yorick counters Darius and does well into Illaoi. Olaf destroys Darius and destroys Illaoi. Nasus vs Darius is fairly even but yeah Illaoi typically does better vs Nasus. Urgot vs Darius is pretty even so is vs Illaoi. Sion does fine into both. Hell Udyr does fine into both. Tahm destroys Darius and Illaoi (braindead op vs immobiles). Nocturne beats/goes even w/ Darius but idk how he does vs Illaoi. I have absolutely no clue what Garen does sorry. Hecarim does great into Illaoi. Idk about Darius. Malphite does fine into Darius, not sure about Illaoi. Maokai just goes even with everyone cuz hurr durr braindead. No experience w/ Morde too oof. Mundo wins once again cuz braindead. Ornn is a joke right now top.
I can't really think of anyone else.
So which immobile exactly is just being "hard countered" by Darius/Illaoi?
Edit: I may actually be wrong on the tanks in this list, given tanks are complete trash right now other than Tahm who was a mistake.
AlienPrimate1 votesIllaoi gold difference at 15 minutes against:
1291
1235
1185
927
882
789
Darius against the same 6:
784
1010
1079
349
803
498
Z3Sleeper1 votesOh my bad. I forgot tanks are trash right now.
Yeah so tanks are losing lane to Juggernauts that are literally designed to counter tanks in a meta where tanks are in a severely poor state, what's new?
Also gold difference =/= win/lose.
Edit: This guy's stats are based on Silver+ lol.
AlienPrimate1 votesGold difference does = misery in laning phase though. A gold difference of over 1k at 15 minutes on average is massive. Teemo only averages a 182 gold lead on Nasus at 15 and 94 against Tryndamere and he is considered to be a hard counter to both. Jayce's biggest gold lead on anyone at 15 is 794. Kennen's biggest 2 are 982 and 627. Tanks are trash right now but at least they can farm when getting poked. They can't farm when getting all-inned every single time they even attempt to get a last hit from anywhere that isn't behind their tower. Farming as a tank against Darius or Illaoi is asking to get reported by your teammates who don't understand that bad games happen. You will unt (unintentionally feed) every time unless you get camped, sit behind your tower, or are playing against someone who is wearing shoes on their hands.
Z3Sleeper1 votesTeemo is considered a hard counter due to blind screwing over both of them at all stages of the game, not because he generates a massive gold deficit.
Once again, cite sources. I need to see what ur even looking at here.
Edit: This guy's stats are based on Silver+ lol.
AlienPrimate2 votesPlatinum+ Darius has 974 on Maokai and Illaoi has 1264 on him. Lol at silver being absolute trash who should uninstall because diamond senpai says they are spergs.
Oh lookie...the deficit gets even bigger in diamond going all the way up to 1320. These Silver Maokais must be trash for keeping it down to 1185.
Edit: I lost all respect for you just from that one edit. I'm using global stats and you throw it out the window just because you perceive anything below x rank to be irrelevant when making balancing decisions.
Z3Sleeper1 votesJumping to conclusions and playing the victim while strawmanning doesn't help your case.
I've already stated I was wrong on almost every tank. Tanks just suck rn.
Noone said "These Silver Maokais must be trash for keeping it down to 1185." besides you and I quite frankly don't agree :)
Daddy Ants1 votesIllaoi gold difference at 15 minutes against:
Darius against the same 6:
Illaoi's gold generation is heavily inflated due to kleptomancy.
AlienPrimate1 votesNow I'll go through and list the gold deficit ranking on every champion you listed vs Darius and Illaoi in that order.
Yorick - unlisted, 5th Olaf - 9th, 1st Nasus - 3rd, 1st Urgot - 5th, 7th Sion - 3rd, 2nd Udyr - no data Tahm - 7th, 1st Nocturne - no data Garen - 3rd, 7th Hecarim - 6th, 4th Malphite - 6th, 1st Maokai - 2nd, 1st Morde - 6th, 3rd Mundo - 9th, 2nd Ornn - 9th, 1st
Out of those you mentioned with sufficient data, Darius or Illaoi are one of the top 3 counters and 3 of them Darius and Illaoi are 2 of the top 3.
Z3Sleeper1 votesRank in which this is occuring? Link?
Winrates?
Edit: This guy's stats are based on Silver+ lol.
AlienPrimate1 votesThis is for silver+ which covers the majority of the player base and people who at least understand the basic mechanics of the game. Win rates don't all reflect this gold deficit which is even more the problem than the deficit itself. No one should have such bs strength in lane that they are required to become a free win against past 25 minutes. Even with being a half item down at 15 minutes on average, Maokai still technically counters Darius because Darius's winrate is lower than his average against Maokai. If Darius wasn't so broken early game in these matchups Riot could afford to give him a bit of strength later in the game.
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/darius/top/vs-maokai/silver
Z3Sleeper1 votesLOL. Case closed. Set that to plat+.
We don't balanced based on Silver.
AlienPrimate2 votesThose gold deficits get bigger on most of these matchups when increasing the rank. Use your brain to change the search yourself instead of your superiority complex.
Z3Sleeper1 votesNothing to do with superiority. If it was I'd say masters+.
But that's unreasonable, Riot has stated that balance is mainly done around a platinum level.
And once again, tanks are lulz right now.
Z3Sleeper1 votesAlso yes, winrates matter :)
Counter =/= lane counter. Counter = they win vs that champ.
AirKingNeo1 votespiece of shit champions who fall off after 10 minutes?
who cares if they come back? they won't anyways even if ranged top bullies died.
AlienPrimate1 votesI much prefer jayce or kennen over darius. At least against them I can build tank and sustain and actually wait it out until a gank comes. Darius just freezes when ahead making ganks, farming, and sometimes even getting close enough to get exp impossible. If Jayce or Kennen go for a freeze you can easily dive them in a 2v1.
Hammermancer7 voteshttps://i.imgflip.com/323ebu.jpg
I just realized how much jayce looks like archer and might actually secretly be archer
Glaricion4 votesWhen you see melee lane bully mains rant about how broken ranged lane bullies are.
Hammermancer1 votesWhen you see melee lane bully mains rant about how broken ranged lane bullies are.
As a jayce main, yep
Sleepcoma1 votesNobody really cares what you main tbh
AirKingNeo2 votesI can outplay a melee bully. I can outscale the melee bullies.
Most ranged bullies outscale or have a teamfight effect.
ModWulf Helhammer4 votesSo...
How exactly does that not heavily nerf Jayce in any position, even moreso then the current planned nerf? Like, from what I'm seeing, something like that would hurt him mid even more, as that means he can't poke or waveclear as effectively, which are too major points of being mid.
TheGrot1 votesMid jayce has access to blue buffs. Mid jayce is able to recall more frequently. (Walk to lane is much shorter). But mainly, mid Jayce already very rarely (if at all) uses hammer form on the wave to get mana back as it makes you much more vulnerable to both poke and ganks. This is speaking as someone who in his prime (D1/Masters elo) had a 60% WR on Jayce as one of his top 3 most played champions. Been playing him for years. This change is going to gut him. Speaking from a plethora of experience, removing the mana gain passive on his hammer form will not harm mid Jayce in a significant way. Making his EQ deal 100 to 200 less damage, yah, that will hurt him a lot more throughout the game.
TheGrot1 votesTo add on to my other reply (just for added clarity) in top lane, it's a lot easier to find opportunities in top lane where you can go into hammer form for a while to farm lane. I'd say the two major factors here are that top has a longer lane and that you find a lot more melee matchups.
In top, a wave freeze can last for a while. In mid, not so much. Even if you freeze it, it never will last very long just because of how short the lane is.
It's more excusable, for current lack of a better word, to go into melee form for a top matchup. Mid has a much shorter lane, so wave freezes dont last as long. Because of it being a shorter lane, the difference between melee form and ranged form is a lot more significant as far as ganks are concerned. Also, matchup-wise. Going into every possible matchup and speaking hypothetically about them would both be tedious and over-analytical. I know from experience that Jayce mid does not get a whole lot out of the mana gain passive from his hammer auto attacks, and here I will try to explain why I think this is. I am going to speak very generally about a few scenarios to hopefully show why.
Jayce vs Melee/Tank. You'll see Jayce start by using his ranged advantage to poke the enemy laner out. Look for a lane freeze. Then shift into hammer form to farm wave once you have the enemy laner starting to play back. I can't think of a tank that can casually go on Jayce early game after being poked down to let's say 2/3 hp or less. And since they're melee, they aren't going to walk up to be close enough for jayce to even go on them with hammer form Q. This is a broad generalization that may have exceptions but I believe will most often be accurate. It will continue this way until either the wave gets pushed to tower or until a jungler comes to gank Jayce. This will offer Jayce ample time to farm waves with hammer form and get his mana back.
Jayce vs Ranged Mid Laner Alright, so let's suppose Jayce is against a ranged mid laner. In general, Jayce is already going to be subject to receiving more poke because of getting outranged. Just as Caitlyn outranges vayne in lane phase, Jayce's auto attacks are out ranged by Lux E, Orianna Q, Velkoz QW, Viktor E, Azir Q, Xerath Q, Ahri Q, and I could go on for ages. For this reason, even if you manage to successfully both work around the wave (have to work around both melee and caster minions now) to gain an EQ (or even just a casual Q) opportunity and then land it to poke the enemy laner, you still won't necessarily be free to go into hammer form and start farming the wave. You are still putting yourself in a position to take free damage from enemy abilities. You can still get hit by a Lux E without being able to return damage. You can still get hit by Ahri Q. Etc.
Jayce vs Melee Mid Laner Based on all of the melee matchups, I think this is an exception to top lane. You may be able to poke someone out more with your ranged auto attack advantage, but it's still not a good idea to put yourself into melee form against most melee mid laners. Zed, Fizz, Yasuo, Talon, Diana, Sylas, Akali, and so on. Those are not matchups you are going to be allowed to go into melee form casually to farm a wave and walk out scott free.
And mid is a lane where the difference between being in ranged and melee form is more sensitive because of the number of gank angles and how much smaller the lane is.
This was a pretty rough explanation that surely may have a few exceptions, but in general it is true, speaking from experience, that you will find much less opportunities to farm a wave in hammer form as Jayce mid as opposed to Jayce top.
TwitchInMyPants1 votesAll this does is ensure he's taking Manamune again lol
That or lethality and just don't miss
Stars Shaper1 votesMana Hungry Jayce was so stressful to play that even building Manamune asap wasn't enough to make him not useless once he used 2 skills.
GigglesO1 votesOr you could just remove the mana gain passive anyways because its extra unnecessary power.
Anu3isII1 votesWouldn't he revert to the spammy Tear build tho? It would still lead to less damage early game while having a bit better mid-late.
Ninjas Flossing1 votesyou nerf top jayce be playing olaf
Nevrankroaton1 votesYou don't need to remove the mana regain from his hammer stance, if anything it promote Jayce to be melee and give trade back. Just increase his mana cost a bit (especially if he full combo) and if you really want to nerf him, reduce his MS while in cannon by 5 (even 10 if you want to smack him hard and compensate in other area).
ZaFishbone1 votesUmmm, nerfing mana gain is always a nerf for midlaners.
TheGrot1 votesThen why do I, a mid laner who has played Jayce for several years in diamond elo, want this change so much more than what they actually did?
ZaFishbone1 votesThen why do I, a mid laner who has played Jayce for several years in diamond elo, want this change so much more than what they actually did?
Dude, I'm not defending the change they did in any way, but I'm telling you that you just don't realize how much the mana regen is helping you out. If they took away his regen, I think 1v1ning him in laning phase would be EASY.
TheGrot1 votesIt really wouldn't be. In mid lane you pretty much never use hammer form to mana regen from a wave because of how vulnerable it makes you to ganks and free poke. Also because it's a shorter lane. Top lane you see it get put into use a lot more, which is why the change would be much more of a top lane nerf than a mid lane nerf. Really it just punishes Jayce players a lot harder for not being able to reliably land EQ. If you miss that in top lane, you cant just afk farm a wave to get half of the mana cost refunded.
ZaFishbone1 votesIt really wouldn't be. In mid lane you pretty much never use hammer form to mana regen from a wave because of how vulnerable it makes you to ganks and free poke. Also because it's a shorter lane. Top lane you see it get put into use a lot more, which is why the change would be much more of a top lane nerf than a mid lane nerf. Really it just punishes Jayce players a lot harder for not being able to reliably land EQ. If you miss that in top lane, you cant just afk farm a wave to get half of the mana cost refunded.
Not what I've heard. Also I main Diana, who needs 3 melee attacks to regain mana, and she still relies HEAVILY on this feature in mid. It's not impossible to get an attack in on the minions here and there, even against a mage.
TheGrot1 votesDiana isn't Jayce
