So whats up with Ahri's Winrate

DonnieDarkin·Mar 26, 2017·44 votes·3,201 views

54 percent bronze-gold, 53 plat and above

She generally feels too strong in most games--very useful hard CC, incredible poke, good damage, high mobility. Of course she wins a lot.

So, when is she going to be nerfed?

208 Comments

ModAcademy KaynMar 26, 201718 votes

Look, you're going to need to learn, that Winrate alone is not whether something should get nerfed. There's a lot of other factors you need to keep in mind of. For example, look at her average winrate By dedicated players and you'll see that it's 56%, which is actually fairly average compared to many other champions. Dedicated Mains normally have 54%+ winrate, because they're experienced.

Ahri, as we can all admit, is fairly easy to play, so there isn't much of a gap between her skill floor and skill gap. As such, it doesn't take a whole lot to be good with her (there is still a degree, but not a whole lot). Because of that, a lot of Ahri players are near that skill ceiling, since it isn't hard to get to it, which means the Average winrate for Ahri is going to be closer to the Dedicated Main Winrate.

EedatMar 26, 201718 votes

Look, you're going to need to learn, that Winrate alone is not whether something should get nerfed

Yet when any champ that isnt a mage or support hits similar numbers, the board forms a lynch mob to destroy them. I.E. Lucian, Jhin, Vayne, Lee, etc.

"High pickrate should deflate their winrate! High pick rate and win rate means they're a generalist!"

ModAcademy KaynMar 26, 20174 votes

I've stopped trying to understand the Hivemind a long time ago.

Fondling GemsMar 26, 20174 votes

Most of those champs have a much higher skill floor though. Vayne and Jhin aren't super high skill floor but due to their much less forgiving nature than Ahri the practice needed to play them on a good level, roughly that of someone who plays them a lot, is higher than Ahri's. This means that a lot of their playerbase drags them down because they don't put in the games needed to master them. As such when their playrates rise it means that people who are picking them up are doing too well for the champ difficulty.

Ahri also has a VERY consistent playerbase. I can't think of another champion with as large of a playerbase that sticks with her. Large playerbases tend to lower winrate because it means more new players are playing them and a smaller percentage of people are maining them. Ahri however breaks this general trend due to her very dedicated fan base. In other words new Ahri players KEEP playing her and later make up for their early drop in winrate. This is in comparison to people who play half a dozen games on a champ then stop playing them, causing a negative impact on their winrate.

Ahri just happens to come together into a combination of easy to learn, forgiving, and a dedicated playerbase which boosts her winrate up substantially compared to other champions who only fulfill some of those.

Harder champs have lower winrates because new players drag them down more. Less dedicated playerbases drag down winrates because players don't stick with the champ and make up for their initial lower winrate. Less forgiving champions can't be picked as freely (Ahri is a very good blind pick) which drops their playrate.

There is another reason as well. Champions like Lee Sin didn't use to be such a huge issue until players realized they could ult > Q rather than Q > Ult. This removed much of his counterplay. In the same way Lucian Jhin and Vayne all got buffs/item buffs that removed most of their counterplay (Such as One/Two Shot Vayne meta) Jhin also had a bit of a case of being well out of hand, far more than Ahri is. He won 25% of games. He was in over 50% of games with a 50% winrate. That meant that half of all the wins in LoL for a patch or two had a Jhin on the winning team.

Complaints surfaced about all of these because most of their counterplay got negated. Ahri, while strong, has never been able to negate her counterplay. She has exp/gold trouble working in a duo lane and in a single lane she has never been able to guarantee landing her abilities. If you look at her winrate by player experience you can actually see it dropping. This is because people playing her rise up until they hit the elo where people can dodge, because most of Ahri's damage can be dodged relatively easily. Most of Ahir's power rests in enemies not dodging, as such her counterplay exists, most people simply have the issue of not being good enough to dodge perfectly dodge-able abilities.

Ahri has clear counterplay and when people are beaten by her they know they could have played better in most situations. They realize that the reason they failed was because they didn't apply their mechanics properly. It was a situation out of their control like Lee Sin ward hopping right next to you, binding you as he ults, then following with a Q>Q to 100-0 you while you are CC'd for the entire duration all as part of his own kit.

People don't gang up on Ahri as much because much of her strength lies in her opponents failing to dodge, not because she is overloaded. She gives the ability to outplay her and generally isn't going to roll over you anyways even if you do outplay her.

VerdadeMar 26, 20176 votes

Problem is, if Lucian or Lee or Vayne become meta, they also become ban/pick. This isn't as bad in other lanes because there are pretty versatile champions.

Jungle requires fast and safe clears with strong ganking presence. If Lee becomes meta, all junglers worse than him are just bad.

Same goes for ADCs, because all they do is damage. Whoever gets more reliable damage is better than the rest. It seems only Ashe kinda sticks out, as shes ADC safe pick, because she offers tons of utility as well.

Support, mid and top offer much more utility, which directly translates into versatility. While there are powerpicks, theres also large amount of "evergreens" who preform well in nearly every meta, such as Blitz, Janna, Orianna, Velkoz, Darius.

UnvictusMar 26, 20175 votes

Don't even use lee as an example. Riot has a hardcore bias for that champ and refuses to nerf him "too hard" cause LCS flashy plays. Let me tell you there's nothing flashy or fancy about ward hop, R, Q, Q with no counterplay. I for one don't feel outplayed in the slightest when lee kills me. He deserves all the boards hate if you ask me. Cause he's the definition of a generalist. Cause when he's strong, he crunches the jungle pool cause he has everything you could want from a jungler.

GlîtchyMar 26, 20179 votes

So 53% winrate on Ahri is a bad thing,

but 55% winrate on Shaco is a-okay?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/88/883eeecfdec28febd736510b0bfe93add9f9eb221bd2462a99ad83a4e4638ba5.jpg

EedatMar 26, 201715 votes

Straw man argument.

What if.......BOTH were overtuned?

GlîtchyMar 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Straw man argument.

What if.......BOTH were overtuned?

Well people should start worrying about Shaco first then since he's got a bigger winrate and ban rate than Ahri.

EedatMar 26, 20179 votes

people should start worrying about Shaco first then

Lol check the front page.

What if.....Both could be looked at and we stopped using smokescreen straw man arguments to deflect the issue?

GlîtchyMar 26, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Lol check the front page.

What if.....Both could be looked at and we stopped using smokescreen straw man arguments to deflect the issue?

Well look at it this way,

Shaco , can go full tank and still burst like it's nothing, has THE BEST stealth in the game, mimic's LB's clone, but better since it drops boxes when killed.

Ahri , just burst and mobility, She's just like Katarina but doesn't reset cd and relies on mana and is extremely mana hungry, CANNOT go full tank and remain functional.

Which is worse to deal with?

EedatMar 26, 20179 votes

You're still are using the same straw man argument. Just because one champion is overtuned doesn't mean others cant be as well. Shaco being OP has nothing to do with Ahri's balance. You're just trying to deflect the issue onto something else

GlîtchyMar 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

You're still are using the same straw man argument. Just because one champion is overtuned doesn't mean others cant be as well. Shaco being OP has nothing to do with Ahri's balance. You're just trying to deflect the issue onto something else

No, my point is, people need to look at more than just 1 champ as being overtuned, but some need it more immediately than others, Shaco being in need of it sooner, I agree Ahri can stand for a nerf, but not as badly as Shaco needs it.

EedatMar 26, 20178 votes

..... this is the same straw man argument......

Why cant they both get nerfed? There is no reason they can't.

GlîtchyMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

..... this is the same straw man argument......

Why cant they both get nerfed? There is no reason they can't.

No, I said they BOTH can stand for it ,but Shaco needs it more immediately than Ahri, but if they were to be nerfed at the same time here's what I would be thinking,

Shaco, gets something like Jhin, but building armor just raises his lethality and damage (no tank bonuses)

Ahri, remove the true damage from her Q.

NineTailedMysticMar 26, 20176 votes

Ahri, remove the true damage from her Q

what the fuck

GlîtchyMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

what the fuck

Hey you asked, besides most people I've seen bitch about the true damage on Q, so I thought it was the problem.

NineTailedMysticMar 26, 20173 votes

Her true damage on Q is not her problem at all. It's her safety.

Gregor GysiMar 26, 20172 votes

Aka the movement speed on her Q - if Ahri were to get nerfed then it would probably the MS.

KeevalroyMar 26, 20173 votes

Hopefully they get rid of it altogether, but the balance team needs to unglue their eyes from the LCS matches and stop jerking off to the mobility creep they're actively supporting and glorifying first.

UnvictusMar 26, 20172 votes

How about we start by removing the move speed on Q. All it did was make her too safe than she already is.

GlîtchyMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

How about we start by removing the move speed on Q. All it did was make her too safe than she already is.

That I wouldn't mind, because seems a little arbitrary

KeevalroyMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That I wouldn't mind, because seems a little arbitrary

A little arbitrary? They only wanted assurance that she'd be an LCS pick without DFG in the game, that's it. And to do that, they were comfortable pushing away a thematic Kiss of Death interaction for retarded speed because it made her look more flashy. That's more than "a little arbitrary."

Sona PingMar 26, 20173 votes

Tip: A person making his own argument isn't a strawman.

SpoofghoulMar 26, 20173 votes

extremely mana hungry my ass

never ever seen one go oom ever after they buy item 3802

GlîtchyMar 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

extremely mana hungry my ass

never ever seen one go oom ever after they buy

That's kinda the whole point of item 3802

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 20177 votes

The thing with Ahri is that her windows of power are relatively low but stable.

What I mean is that her windows of power, her high points, are lower than other mages. she does less damage than other mages (Just look at Vik, Brand, Lux, Syndra, etc.) but her windows of weakness are higher than other mages' weak points so she seems harder to counter or play against, as most people usually wait for the moment of weakness to strike. And her moments of weakness are still stronger than most other mid lane champs' weak moments.

If you graphed a typical midlaners power as they used their kit, it would slope up and down sharply as pieces of their kit are used and come back off cooldown.

Ahri's would slope more smoothly because her spells are all more or less equal in terms of power and usefulness to her. Plus she's quite mobile when she hits 6, and compared to other burst mages she is hard to punish or catch out.

If none of my rambling made any sense, suffice it to say that she's a general and safe pick, and this contributes to her winrate. Winrate isn't everything, but both her winrate and playrate are high, so minor nerfs may be in order.

NiyumiMar 26, 20174 votes

She'll be nerfed when slutty, half-naked women stop making money off guys that have a single-digit IQ that throw money at people for that kind of thing. Same thing with fanservice in anime and other games.

Dominick DestineMar 26, 20177 votes

{quoted}

She'll be nerfed when slutty, half-naked women stop making money

I know you are trying to make a point (I.e. never) but that is a very funny way of saying it , it's so obvious to the point where I had to read it twice because I thought you were being incredibly sarcastic .... you're not.

Anyway, Ahri has not been top tier for very long, by that logic we could say the same thing you just said but with Lee Sin in place of Ahri and men in place of women.

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 26, 20173 votes

Lee Sin isn't a case of sexualization. He's a case of Idealization.

There aren't many examples of sexualized men in League, but if you look at basically ANY of the male Frejlord champ it's very clearly still there.

In fact, tt extends across basically all of the Frejlordian champions. Ashe, Sej and Liss have side boob. Braum, Olaf and Tryn are shirtless. Olaf, Braum, Tryndamere are ALL shirtless despite being in the Artic. There's no case behind it other then "Shirtless men"

GULAG 4 UMar 26, 20173 votes

And aatrox is pantless!

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 20174 votes

She is more clothed than most women champions though.

NiyumiMar 26, 20171 votes

Uh... what?

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 20171 votes

Just look at her base model. She is actually dressed pretty decently when you have females like Jinx or Rek'Sai. She's not a Leona or Lux but you get the basic idea.

Also unlike a lot of female champs she doesn't have a bikini skin.

~~She's not meant to be attractive becuase of skin showing. She's supposed to appeal to furries.~~

Please ignore this. I was up way too late when I wrote this. I know what a furry is and Ahri isn't one. I'm not deleting it becuase then the thread would make less sense.

NiyumiMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Just look at her base model. She is actually dressed pretty decently when you have females like Jinx or Rek'Sai. She's not a Leona or Lux but you get the basic idea.

Look at literally every one of her skins minus Academy. What's the trend? Oh, huh, super sexualized. Even her base skin and animations and VO is sexualized.

Also unlike a lot of female champs she doesn't have a bikini skin.

Uh... only bikini skins I can think of are Fiora and Sivir (and Sivir is because she wears basically a bikini anyway) -- unless you count Lulu as some super sexualized thing in her onesie.

She's not meant to be attractive becuase of skin showing. She's supposed to appeal to furries.

Yeah, okay.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 20173 votes

Leona has one as well.

And Soraka.

And Shyvana's not exactly completely covered up either.

See where I'm going with this?

I'm serious, she doesn't show that much skin for someone that's supposed to by sexualized. Now Evelynn, that's another story.

NiyumiMar 26, 20171 votes

Soraka has a bikini skin? You mean Order of the Banana? That's not sexualized at all, that's based on Mardi Gras dresses.

Shyvana is also sexualized, but still has no bikini skin.

And it's more than just how much skin she does or doesn't show (which is a lot), it's everything from her animations to her VO to her lore.

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 26, 20172 votes

Things can be inspired and still be sexualized.

I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon of what is and isn't good or bad about sexaulization (Mainly because I don't give a fuck), but Soraka's Order of the Banana skin is by definition Sexualized, regardless of the inspiration behind the skin.

It's like saying Festival Anivia isn't a goofy skin. Sure it's inspired by Madi Gra and Brazilian dancing, but it is still a goofy as fuck skin.

NiyumiMar 27, 20171 votes

Sexualizing something is when you can't think of enough character and personality to make something interesting, and so go for the guaranteed financial success. It's a cheap, non-creative method of doing something.

Order of the Banana isn't sexualized at all. Does it specifically emphasize her chest, hips, or any other primary / secondary female sexual trait? I wouldn't say so -- and I'm a prude to the max.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 27, 20173 votes

This is likely because you don't find Soraka sexually attractive in the first place.

I don't find Jinx attractive, so I don't see her choice of clothing as sexualizing either.

It's all a matter of perspective.

NiyumiMar 27, 20171 votes

Mmm, from the knees up I find her attractive. Though I'm asexual so it's not sexual attraction, but she's aesthetically attractive. Still don't think any of her skins are sexualized. Hell, if anything, her lack of pants in her base skin is more sexual than Order of the Banana.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 27, 20172 votes

Mmm, from the knees up I find her attractive.

Glad we agree. Raka best girl. Plus she has a stellar personality to match. :D

Yara0Mar 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Look at literally every one of her skins minus Academy. What's the trend? Oh, huh, super sexualized. Even her base skin and animations and VO is sexualized.

Uh... only bikini skins I can think of are Fiora and Sivir (and Sivir is because she wears basically a bikini anyway) -- unless you count Lulu as some super sexualized thing in her onesie.

Yeah, okay.

IDK why Ahri looking good is a problem but i personally would rather look at champs that look cute for 40 MIns over a fat blob Urgot . Sorry urgod mains.

NineTailedMysticMar 26, 20172 votes

Congratulations, you figured out most of Ahri's character.

Kukan SeishinMar 27, 20173 votes

FUN FACTS OF THE DAY

Ahri, is a kumiho, do you know what that is? Here lemme help (I love Korean Mythology) Essentially, a Kumiho is a nine tailed fox seductress that lures males into the woods and then feed on their life essence. "How do they lure the men in oh great Jargon wan?" (lul) Sexual seduction... So... if Ahri DIDN'T fit this description, I would be mildly disappointed, as it is in her MYTHOLOGY for goodness sake. (fking love mythology)

NiyumiMar 27, 20171 votes

I thought Ahri was a kitsune.

But, even if she's not, you could easily keep everything about her the same, turn her into a kitsune instead of a kumiho, and nothing is lost. She's not a slut anymore, Riot isn't profiting off her being one, and we still have a 9-tailed fox girl that has magic powers.

But, that wouldn't be lucrative. ^^

Kukan SeishinMar 27, 20172 votes

Kitsune's do basically the same thing However, I originally did think she was a kitsune at first as well But nope Hopes and dreams crushed by nothing changing

NineTailedMysticMar 26, 20176 votes

Learn what is or is not furry, people. She's still mostly human. If you want furry, look to Rengar or Kindred.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 26, 20173 votes

Crap. Mb. Sorry if I offended you.

I was up waaaay too late last night when I made those statements. I thought they were clever then. DX

Really sorry about that.

NineTailedMysticMar 26, 20172 votes

Naw, just a little disappointed when people call her furry.