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Adaptive Helm loses value when upgraded from its components

PopcornBunni··7 votes·3,315 views

item 3194 Grants 350 health, 55 MR, +100% base health regen, and 10% CDR, and of course its magic damage reduction passive

Its components are item 1033 item 3211 item 1006.

item 3211 is of importance here. UNIQUE passive: Taking damage from enemy champions grants +150% base health regeneration for 10 seconds

Presumably, the magic damage reduction of Adaptive Helm is meant to take the place of Cowl's health regen, but it isn't the same thing at all. -100% health regen for magic damage reduction from a repeated source does not equate to a same, let alone better, value.

item 3065 also upgrades from item 3211 but it has a catch: with its bonus healing it provides a constant 130% health regen. It isn't strictly better than item 3211, but it's certainly closer than going from 200% health regen off item 3211 item 1006 to 100% off item 3194.

As far as I can tell, these is the only items in the game for which this happens. The next closest is item 3100 which has a lower base AD ratio than item 3057, but on even the highest base AD with the AP from Lich's alone it still outdamges upgraded sheen.

item 3065 is probably fine since it's already the go-to MR item, but I really feel like item 3194 could use the additional unique passive, shared name with item 3211 :

UNIQUE Passive -- Outlast: Taking damage from enemy champions grants +150% base health regen for 10 seconds

Whether it would need its statline health regen lowered to 50% is debatable, but I see no reason to lose the bonus regen entirely on upgrade.

19 Comments

Alzon6 votes

Serrated Dirk's bonus damage passive is lost on upgrading the item. Lost Chapter's mana regen is lost upon upgrading the item.

PopcornBunni1 votes

To be fair, Lost Chapter's regen is also lost when a champion reaches level 18 and the item 3134 changes only recently got put back on the item so I forgot about it.

item 3134 does lose out though, other than item 3147. Maybe item 3814 could get bonus damage after absorbing a spell, or item 3142's on the first damage after using its active. Again it wouldn't be the same as Dirk's 30s cooldown bonus, but close-ish.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak6 votes

It loses the regeneration, but gains one of the most powerful passives in the game. The amount of mitigation it provides against consistent same-source damage outweighs the measly health you'd gain back from regenerating.

Alzon3 votes

The passive is pretty much worthless once the enemy gets Void Staff, since the 20% reduction will have a lot less effective HP to multiply. The formula looks like this: HP x MR x (1+DR) = Effective HP versus magic damage. The final number is reduced drastically by any % decrease in the three input values.

PopcornBunni2 votes

Except against DoTs, and especially physical damage, including all autos.

item 3194 doesn't stack with itself and only really works against magic DPS champs specifically. Brand isn't effected by it much compared to, say, Cassiopeia or Ryze spellspamming since Brand's damage comes from all different sources.

It works against Teemo's mushrooms but is worse than upgraded item 3211 against his auto trades.

And I know it isn't meant for physical damage, duh. But anyone building tanky even into a physical bruiser top will need an MR item second or third, and item 3211 works great against bleed from Darius or poke from any of the top lane marksmen, which is completely lost when upgraded.

Bob the Toastr3 votes

Quick correction: Adaptive does work against DoTs

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Adaptive_Helm

PopcornBunni2 votes

No fucking shit the passive works against DoT. But healing even an extra 5 health per second is better against them than reducing the tick damage per second from 30 to 24 because the healing continues 10 seconds after the DoT ends.

Thing is, it heals for more than 5 per second and DoT ticks are usually lower than 30.

Rathar Dashing2 votes

Taking 20% less damage from a champion's whole kit is better than regaining 4 HP every 5 seconds. Even on the champion with the highest base health regen in the game, Gnar, at level 18 you'd be healing an extra 34 HP every 5 seconds, or about 7 every second. Meanwhile, Cass W would instead get reduced by 8+3% AP per second, her E by 18+12% AP (which is on a 0.75 second cooldown), and her Q is also on low enough of a cooldown to benefit from the 20% damage reduction if she spams it. Other champions with DoT effects like Brand and Anivia are also gimped by this item, as is anyone who buys Liandry's. Champions with abilities that damage in multiple instances (like Taliyah or Nunu) also get some damage cut from them. Not all autos are immune to damage reduction. The 20% applies to all magic damage on-hit effects, including Kog'Maw W, Teemo poison, Kai'Sa passive, Rageblade passive, Corki passive, Varus W Passive, Nashor's, the list goes on. Point is, if you're buying Adaptive helm into anyone with a magic DoT, you're netting quite a bit of durability.

Rathar Dashing2 votes

Spirit Visage grants a total of +160% base health regen, since it buffs the base healing by 100%, then multiplies both the base and bonus amounts by 30%. Thus +30% base, and another +130% base. It also amplifies any other health regen items you have (including doran's shield), and doesn't require you to get hit by enemy champions.

Lots of items lose passives when upgrading, because the value of a new gained passive is better than the old one. You lose 25% mana regen when buying Tear, but in exchange you get 10% off all your mana costs and can stack mana. Lost Chapter loses the mana regen ability, but all upgrades grant more base mana and a powerful passive/active (not to mention after lvl 18 LC has no mana regen at all). Hextech Revolver loses it's passive when you upgrade it, but each other hextech item's active deals more damage, has an AP ratio, and 2 of them are AoE. Tiamat to Titanic loses a good amount of AoE damage if you have low health, but it changes the AoE shape and adds direct on-hit damage. Stopwatch of course doesn't give the same kind of active for 2 of its upgrades. Recurve bow loses the +15 physical damage on hit for magic damage on-hit, or %health damage on hit (Bork has a minimum of 15 damage, Bloodrazor does not). You lose 40 AD when building Sterak's, in exchange for 50% of your base AD (which of course breaks even at 80 base AD). There's probably one or two I missed.

Slythion1 votes

Don't you think it's unique passive has a higher value than it's lost regen?

PopcornBunni2 votes

I think it can against very specific champions. It's net neutral against continuous DoTs like Teemo, better against spellflingers like Cassiopeia, and strictly worse against any physical poke/DoT as well as single spell-cycle burst mages like Annie Zoe Neeko.

item 3065 exists to build against burst mages, but tanks usually end up needing to build both anyway, alongside 3 armor items, splitting their resistances.

Upgrading to item 3194 with a item 3065 already owned is even worse btw. You go from +260% regen to +130.

Slythion1 votes

{quoted}

I think it can against very specific champions. It's net neutral against continuous DoTs like Teemo, better against spellflingers like Cassiopeia, and strictly worse against any physical poke/DoT as well as single spell-cycle burst mages like Annie Zoe Neeko.

item 3065 exists to build against burst mages, but tanks usually end up needing to build both anyway, alongside 3 armor items, splitting their resistances.

Upgrading to item 3194 with a item 3065 already owned is even worse btw. You go from +260% regen to +130.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's necessarily bad for the item to be niche against specific types of champs. Tanks can always look towards item 3193 or other items instead. If you're not against a dps mage like Azir or Cassiopeia it's almost always better to be stacking health (that synergies with both resistances) after item 3065 + item 3111 anyways, as it's a natural mitigation to burst damage.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

I think it can against very specific champions. It's net neutral against continuous DoTs like Teemo, better against spellflingers like Cassiopeia, and strictly worse against any physical poke/DoT as well as single spell-cycle burst mages like Annie Zoe Neeko.

item 3065 exists to build against burst mages, but tanks usually end up needing to build both anyway, alongside 3 armor items, splitting their resistances.

Upgrading to item 3194 with a item 3065 already owned is even worse btw. You go from +260% regen to +130.

There's quite a lot more than just DPS champs that get reduced. Pretty sure Vayne's Q repeatedly...Ezreal Q...Akali Q...Karthus Q...etc

PopcornBunni3 votes

Vayne's Q is physical damage, Akali can only Q twice in close succession, and Karthus would definitely qualify as a spellslinger along with Cassiopeia Taliyah Ryze Lissandra and most other battlemages.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Why would you build Adaptive Helm into a burst mage?

Also you're not losing out on much when getting Adaptive after Spirit Visage, the effective HP you get from the damage reduction is just further amplified by your innate healing effects. You should be more worried about having to buy 2 separate HP+MR items.

ZaFishbone1 votes

Adaptive helm does well enough in completely shutting down certain AP champs. It needs no further buffs. The loss of value balances out it's extremely narrowly focused effect.

wildfox9T1 votes

As far as I can tell, these is the only items in the game for which this happens

i agree that no item should lose its stats/abilities when upgraded,though there are many other items that lose something when upgraded

item 3802 item 3191 (item 3157 loses the passive) item 3077 (the active CD and cast get nerfed with item 3748) item 1043 item 1082 item 3134 item 3052 (same as seekers) item 2420 (item 3193 item 3026 lose the statis for a different effect)

PopcornBunni2 votes

item 3191 and item 3052 upgrades all take into account the item's max stack value so it shouldn't be counted; same with item 1043 for which its upgrades all deal the same minimum damage as bow.

item 2420 upgrades are all costed such that the stopwatch component is "free" on their final costs, but more importantly assume they are building off an otherwise useless item 2421

item 3748 is an odd case because the active cast is arguable whether it loses cast value since it becomes an auto reset for other on-hit effects and taking towers. I'll agree the cooldown should be the same as item 3074 item 3077 though.

item 3802 item 3134 could reasonably stand to have their passives added to their final products, or some analog at least. item 3147 has an equivalent that does more damage more often on every single user after level 2, so a one-time damage boost after using item 3142 or absorbing a spell with item 3814 might be alright assuming they don't add too much hidden power.

wildfox9T1 votes

{quoted}

item 3191 and item 3052 upgrades all take into account the item's max stack value so it shouldn't be counted; same with item 1043 for which its upgrades all deal the same minimum damage as bow.

yeah but it feels strange losing the passive at least to me even if you get them back as stats

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