Neeko is totally busted. Is it really necessary for every new champion to be broken upon release?

Yenn·Dec 9, 2018·17 votes·5,868 views

In days long past, new champions were usually released at an acceptable level of power, and would start off with low win rates as people learned their kits and got used to them.

However, it's starting to feel like new champions are intentionally being released in a state that overpowers the top meta picks, and then gradually nerfed in subsequent patches to a reasonable level (though still towards the top tier of meta picks).

For example, Neeko is sitting at 51% win rate in mid lane and 54% win rate in top lane after only a couple of days. It's pretty clear to everyone at high elo that her kit is busted; the counterplay to her E during laning is very limited unless you have a high mobility champion, and she has tools to counter all-in from assassins and burst champions, while coincidentally bursting them back.

Are the designers being incentivized based on the win rates of their champions, or something? I'm really struggling to understand how this keeps happening.

30 Comments

Crispy0SnakeDec 9, 201810 votes

Idk why this has downvotes, she's totally stupid.

Malix FarwinDec 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Idk why this has downvotes, she's totally stupid.

Because its not a kit issue with her, its mostly numbers are tuned a bit too high on her. Other then that her kit feels completely fine but more importantly, she is fun to lane against.

Mafia LeBlancDec 9, 20188 votes

You're only saying that because people don't know how to play her yet. It's not that her numbers are too high (although they are fucking insane for how much utility she has), it's the fact her kit is fundamentally broken.

When she learns how to run around as a 20% hp adc while actually at full hp, invisibly charging her ult to oneshot everyone in a 3 mile radius and stun the tanks who actually survive for easy followup, see how 'fun' she is then.

She has an absolutely busted and toxic design. They haven't blundered a champ release this bad since Vayne and Rengar. Sheis put together like a 13 year old on a powertrip designed her. It will take a few weeks for the average player to learn her kit and how to abuse her disgusting mechanics and bugs. This is like DFG mid evelynn right after her first big rework.

There is no way that she can stay in her current state of being able to pretend to be low hp squishy, and still burst the fk out of entire teams like she does now all by herself, just no way. She is going to be azir or kalista'd within a year and left in obscurity.

Malix FarwinDec 9, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mafia LeBlanc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bGEE9rlX,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-09T02:39:29.406+0000)

You're only saying that because people don't know how to play her yet.

When she learns how to run around as a 20% hp adc while actually at full hp, invisibly charging her ult to oneshot everyone in a 3 mile radius and stun the tanks who actually survive for easy followup, see how 'fun' she is then.

She has an absolutely busted and toxic design. They haven't blundered a champ release this bad since Vayne and Rengar. Sheis put together like a 13 year old on a powertrip designed her. It will take a few weeks for the average player to learn her kit and how to abuse her disgusting mechanics and bugs.

There is no way that she can stay in her current state of being able to pretend to be low hp squishy, and still burst the fk out of entire teams like she does now all by herself, just no way.

By your same argument, people haven't learned how to play against her yet as well. Just as people are learning her kit, they will learn how to deal with it as well on the other side of the coin. Another point to make, most of her kit is similar to champions that already exist which means she is a lot easier to learn coming out the gate.

YennDec 9, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bGEE9rlX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-09T02:35:01.425+0000)

Because its not a kit issue with her, its mostly numbers are tuned a bit too high on her. Other then that her kit feels completely fine but more importantly, she is fun to lane against.

I can see her being okay in the hands of an unskilled/slower player, but she is insanely hard to lane against when played by a skilled Diamond+ player.

Her E is literally unavoidable if she aims it directly at you through minions. The speed and size are such that unless you're playing Xerath or Lux, it's guaranteed to land on you at wave clear range. You cannot sidestep it unless her aim is off. You can try to play 'ring around the rosie' with her so she can't hit two minions, but once she gets the movement speed bonus from her third auto, you're done.

It's similar to abilities like Zoe's E and Fizz's R, but both of these abilities have a wind up time before the projectile starts to give you additional time to start moving, which compensates for for their speed and size. Hers has no wind up, and is more like a faster Lux Q that ignores collision.

Once she hits her unavoidable E, you can't avoid the rest of her damage, and you often can't retaliate against her because your kit is either lower range or contains a crucial skill shot that is blocked by minions. If she can't straight up kill you, her Q does a ton of damage.

If you try to retaliate, her W has something to stop almost every form of retaliation. The clone can body block a skill shot, she gets a large speed boost to facilitate sidestepping any non-blockable skill shots, and she stealths, which interrupts and prevents targeted point-and-click abilities.

It's entirely a kit issue; it has extremely limited counterplay when used correctly, and it also contains tools that help her counter most match ups.

Frosted TipsDec 9, 20185 votes

Her E is literally unavoidable if she aims it directly at you through minions.

Ok so you also have to be standing behind the minions which you know she is going to look for that so position differently. It is not hard to play around her E. She has a weak early game and is super vulnerable when pushed. She has pretty poor clear early as well. Learn to play and also let her be out for a month before jumping to conclusions.

YennDec 9, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Ok so you also have to be standing behind the minions which you know she is going to look for that so position differently. It is not hard to play around her E. She has a weak early game and is super vulnerable when pushed. She has pretty poor clear early as well. Learn to play and also let her be out for a month before jumping to conclusions.

It's almost like she doesn't have a speed boost on every third auto to let her quickly re-position for her E.

Frosted TipsDec 9, 20184 votes

With her low ass attack speed? You can see when her 3rd aa is up and prepare by not being near your minions which I know is a hard to grasp, but it is like facing Fiddlesticks and Miss Fortune. You have to play a little differently when playing against certain champions.

Malix FarwinDec 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I can see her being okay in the hands of an unskilled/slower player, but she is insanely hard to lane against when played by a skilled Diamond+ player.

Her E is literally unavoidable if she aims it directly at you through minions. The speed and size are such that unless you're playing Xerath or Lux, it's guaranteed to land on you at wave clear range. You cannot sidestep it unless her aim is off. You can try to play 'ring around the rosie' with her so she can't hit two minions, but once she gets the movement speed bonus from her third auto, you're done.

It's similar to abilities like Zoe's E and Fizz's R, but both of these abilities have a wind up time before the projectile starts to give you additional time to start moving, which compensates for for their speed and size. Hers has no wind up, and is more like a faster Lux Q that ignores collision.

Once she hits her unavoidable E, you can't avoid the rest of her damage, and you often can't retaliate against her because your kit is either lower range or contains a crucial skill shot that is blocked by minions. If she can't straight up kill you, her Q does a ton of damage.

If you try to retaliate, her W has something to stop almost every form of retaliation. The clone can body block a skill shot, she gets a large speed boost to facilitate sidestepping any non-blockable skill shots, and she stealths, which interrupts and prevents targeted point-and-click abilities.

It's entirely a kit issue; it has extremely limited counterplay when used correctly, and it also contains tools that help her counter most match ups.

Everything you said here is complete BS. Saying her skillshots are "unavoidable" only proves my point.

IllabetheDec 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bGEE9rlX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-09T02:35:01.425+0000)

Because its not a kit issue with her, its mostly numbers are tuned a bit too high on her. Other then that her kit feels completely fine but more importantly, she is fun to lane against.

Her numbers are fine. Just like any champ...... there are a ton of Neeko counters, and they output damage MUCH faster than she does. Her E > Q is about all she has normally, and that's not enough to kill, which means she has to back off. Her R is extremely hard to hit.

CaptainSmorfDec 26, 20183 votes

Her numbers aren't fine... She literally has the ACTUALLY CHECKED highest damage aoe ult numbers in the game for the cast time. This is swain and akali syndrome. Everyone and their mother said swain and akali were fine during their reworks. And then people learned how to play swain, and he was suddenly seen as broken by the majority of the community in terms of numbers. Akali: everyone says "look at her winrates look at her winrates" okay but theres a reason that faker and DOPA two of the best mid laners in the ENTIRE game, have her as one of their top 4 mid laners, despite everyones "look at her winrate" argument.

Malix FarwinDec 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Her numbers aren't fine... She literally has the ACTUALLY CHECKED highest damage aoe ult numbers in the game for the cast time. This is swain and akali syndrome. Everyone and their mother said swain and akali were fine during their reworks. And then people learned how to play swain, and he was suddenly seen as broken by the majority of the community in terms of numbers. Akali: everyone says "look at her winrates look at her winrates" okay but theres a reason that faker and DOPA two of the best mid laners in the ENTIRE game, have her as one of their top 4 mid laners, despite everyones "look at her winrate" argument.

lol no one said new akali was not OP. She's been perma banned since release.

IllabetheDec 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Her numbers aren't fine... She literally has the ACTUALLY CHECKED highest damage aoe ult numbers in the game for the cast time. This is swain and akali syndrome. Everyone and their mother said swain and akali were fine during their reworks. And then people learned how to play swain, and he was suddenly seen as broken by the majority of the community in terms of numbers. Akali: everyone says "look at her winrates look at her winrates" okay but theres a reason that faker and DOPA two of the best mid laners in the ENTIRE game, have her as one of their top 4 mid laners, despite everyones "look at her winrate" argument.

Unlike Swain, Neeko doesn't have a strong learning curve. Her kit is basic, and has already been mastered within its constraints.

And No one said Akali was okay lmfao. In Fact

-Pros predicted she was broken beyond fixing but that it would take awhile for people to master, as one of the most complicated kits to master in the game.

-Basic players basically complained day 1 that her Smoke was broken.

-Nubs just complained she was broken period.

Winrates - we all explained that her win rate is a learning curve issue.

P.S. I'm sorry but Lux, Zyra, and Nunu ALL beat neeko for Damage per duration, resets, and Feasible utility.

Malix FarwinDec 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Her numbers are fine. Just like any champ...... there are a ton of Neeko counters, and they output damage MUCH faster than she does. Her E > Q is about all she has normally, and that's not enough to kill, which means she has to back off. Her R is extremely hard to hit.

no her Q was little overtuned(hince the nerf to it) and it gave her too much wave clear. As far as the rest of her kit goes, its very basic. If neeko came out in 2013-2014 people would of just learned her kit weaknesses so they knew how to play against her but in 2018 people would rather whine about it.

The champ has been out for a while, at this point in time all the champions that were OP at launch(including reworked akali) started seeing high WRs and Deltas. Her has mostly stabilized to average.

DamoclesSep 18, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bGEE9rlX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-12-09T02:35:01.425+0000)

Because its not a kit issue with her, its mostly numbers are tuned a bit too high on her. Other then that her kit feels completely fine but more importantly, she is fun to lane against.

literally the least fun thing to lane against, fucking imagine it, through out all of leagues history, every root that goes through enemies never has gotten stronger for doing so and moves far slower than neekos root, her ult is the size of mid lane and it stuns and has amazing ratios for ap, fucking imagine it, being rewarded for having less skill than other people simply for throwing a root through as many things as possible, and her q aoe burst that is instantaneous, completely faster than any aoe dmg in game, xeraths takes time to land and it is clearly outlined where it will land, for neeko on the other hand her q is not clearly outlined where it will land, and it is instantaneous, so a root that gets stronger the more things you throw it through (aka an entire wave) a instant aoe q that refreshes itself, the ability to go invisible and her lane wide aoe, under no circumstances is her kit "fine" or "fun to lane against" its a fucking annoying nightmare of total bullshit, if you want to fix neeko do 2 of 3 things the first of which should be mandatory, 1: cut her ult size in half. 2: make her q have a very clear ark and take some actual time to get to the target area. 3: the root doesnt get stronger the more it goes through. riot has done nothing this year but release broken and overloaded champs, neeko and most other releases/reworks this game are the perfect description of a "season 9 champ" fucking busted beyond all belief because they sell skins, fuck this company

Mafia LeBlancDec 9, 20185 votes

It's downvoted because it's Yenn, but this post actually has a valid point.

RalanrDec 9, 20187 votes

“In days long past, new champions were usually released at an acceptable level of power, and would start off with low win rates as people learned their kits and got used to them.”

XinZhao HA Pantheon HA.

Cravin Ur CheeksDec 9, 20185 votes

her ability to copy and have fake health needs to be reworked. it makes zero sense to have that in game.

Mafia LeBlancDec 9, 20186 votes

Agreed it is by far the most toxic mechanic they have ever added in this game. It was something they talked about before LB's kit was released, and they said hiding or obscuring an enemy's HP bar is too 'anti-fun' to be added in the game, like mana drain.

But here we are. Not only can she fake her hp - she pretends to be a vulnerable adc with a high bounty while charging her hilarious invisible nuke stun does everything ult to win the fight all by herself.

Just like seriously who the fuck green lighted her design?

The JigSAWDec 9, 20183 votes

Neeko can't cast spells. She can only basic attack in disguise so if they don't use an ability its probably her. Her W procs even in camo so if you see a third hit with bonus magic damage you know its probably her since she also moves a little quicker as well.

IncognonymousDec 9, 20185 votes

Incoming Yenn posts.

Regardless, these fucking apologists would let Hitler invade Poland if they had a goddamn Riot logo on their tanks. My personal opinion is that if bad decisions met with a cold night or two under the bridge, or going home to a hungry child, this shit would stop. Technical, art, doesn't matter. The rest of us pay with our goddamn livelihoods when we fuckup. Disappointment should not be a videogame company's biggest area of fucking business.

The Bad TouchDec 9, 20184 votes

Sure they do. That's how China-Riot gets rp sells.

Then they nerf'em in a patch or two.

SageaceDec 9, 20182 votes

She's not busted, but she could do with a few tiny nerfs.

One of them would be her snare. As it hits multiple units, the projectile speeds up and grows in size. Why must it do both? Why not just increase the size and keep the missile speed the same? That is my main gripe because it is quite hard to deal with, especially when it's a common theme to stay behind your minions. The second nerf would be on her ultimate's shield. And maybe a little bit on her damage.

I really do like her kit. I think she's just a tad bit overpowered.

VreivaiDec 9, 20188 votes

{quoted}

She's not busted, but she could do with a few tiny nerfs.

Dude her ult is a literal "I win" button.

SageaceDec 9, 20182 votes

Dude her ult is a literal "I win" button.

Hate to be that asshole, but that's how many ultimates are in the game.

However, I can somewhat agree with you. For a sneaky mage of deceitful camoflauge, her AOE on her ultimate could be smaller. It's quite strong for a mobile (and delayed) amumu ultimate (Or pantheon ultimate for that matter).

Peel For KogMawDec 13, 20185 votes

thats shits the size of the pacific ocean lmao

Lunatic ShacsterDec 20, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Dude her ult is a literal "I win" button.

I'd like to say that every single neeko ability is, also in 9.24, a literal "I win" button x) was looking at her scalings and cds after a game where I couldnt find out how was that single bloom Q dealing to me more than half health bar as lissandra while we both just had like 80 ap. after looking at her scalings, cds (and range on q too is pretty fucking insane) i found out how.

IllabetheDec 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

She's not busted, but she could do with a few tiny nerfs.

One of them would be her snare. As it hits multiple units, the projectile speeds up and grows in size. Why must it do both? Why not just increase the size and keep the missile speed the same? That is my main gripe because it is quite hard to deal with, especially when it's a common theme to stay behind your minions. The second nerf would be on her ultimate's shield. And maybe a little bit on her damage.

I really do like her kit. I think she's just a tad bit overpowered.

Her damage is fine..... I have yet to find a game where it's not in line with the damage anyone else is doing. I generally run about a 5-6 KDA on her, and I'm usually only about 30ish k damage. Pretty tame. Her average output isn't even near the top of the list, at 22.3k.

The JigSAWDec 9, 20181 votes

Oh please, do NOT nerf Neeko because a few people are yapping about it after a few days. This is the problem with League, you need at least a month of data before you can really assess the champion. When you first release a champion there's a period of uncertainty since most people have never fought them before, they make mistakes, and it artificially boosts the champ win rate because you do not know how to counter them yet.

Seriously people. Yi has true damage, attack/movement speed immune during his ult, can heal for hundreds of health and halve incoming damage, and you have other people with shields and windwalls and URF-like cooldowns and ults preventing them from dying and tanks that can out-damage an ADC while tanking 30 turret shots and you're going after this poor little chameleon? Enough is enough, nerf the existing problems FIRST then deal with anything else.

Neeko OP? She is not. When she throws her Q, if you stay standing in it it will hit you three times. Don't stand there, I've used it on people who were not E'd or rooted and they still stood in the center. Why? Probably to complain about Neeko being OP. if you can't move or break out grab a cleanse item, grab merc treads or adaptive helm - all of this significantly reduces her damage.

Neeko also cannot turn into certain champions that morph - Elise, Nidalee, etc - I've tried to turn into the spider and cougar form but she remains in the human. I played a game where she copied Lulu but Pix was completely different, and since Lulu had a specific skin it made my camo useless.

Leave her alone for at least a month. Fix the real problems.