Creating Unique ADC's

CrazedPorcupine··9 votes·2,048 views

So, with the rise in power of Tristana and Lucian and Kog, I want to look at how to make ADC's Unique or how to emphasize their strengths and weaknesses. And I want to actually talk about the weakest/forgotten ADCs who have become outclassed by newer ADCs.

We'll start with Sivir. Sivir's Original Identity was teh AoE Marksman, She can deal massive AoE damage and can waveclear with the best of them. But then Lucian happened and he has better waveclear for less mana cost and better pushing power than Sivir... So Sivir has become forgotten and unloved. Her niche was filled by Lucian. So, let's emphasize Sivir as the AoE Marksman and the Pushing Queen.

  • Revert the Mana cost nerfs from way back in like patch 4.14 or so.

  • ~~ Next, let's make it so that the damage from Boomerang blade resets to base value at the end of it's path.~~ NOPE: Too broken, INSTEAD Damage fall off amount reduced from 15% per unit to 5% per minion and 20% per Champion down to the minimum of 40%.

  • Next, let's remove the damage reduction from W bounces against minions

  • Someone suggested having Sivir's Passive proc off of successful spell shield blocks.

  • I would like to note that It is possible to Emphasize Sivir as the Anti Caster/Anti-Spell ADC, and thus slightly nerf her other skills, but then have her E Grant Mana, Health, AD, MS or even Halving it's cooldown when used successfully.

  • 12tales' suggestions

  • Change her Passive to go off of stacks with a lower amount at one stack, but higher ammounts past 2-3 stacks.

  • Change her W so that it isn't 3 auto attacks but a timer similar to Twitch's Ult.

  • Make her W bounces able to crit and apply on hit affects (Perhaps with reduced crit damage and applying only 50% lifesteal for balance)

Next let's talk about Ashe. She's supposed to be the Queen of Kite, but now, she's kinda bad at kiting as she has no dashes, no leaps, no blinks nothing but her slows. She's outclassed in kiting potential by Tristana, Lucian, and Ezreal. However, if you simply buff her Q's slow, then she becomes overbearing when ahead because you can't ever run from her.

  • Change her Q to a AA reset, And amp up the slow crap tons where it lasts only a brief period of time when used with autos, but when applied with W, lasts longer

  • Buff her Base MS by 5-10.

Someone Else Brought up graves having been outclassed by Lucian as an up front in your face brawler ADC.

  • Graves would benefit from a mana cost reduction to his dash, and an AD scaling bonus buff to his Q.

  • It's also possible to buff up his bonuses for being agressive in your face having his passive stack higher, or having it grant way more ARMOR!

By strengthening their kits for their niche, it provides a little bit of incentive to pick them over Lucian/Tristana.

EDIT: The Wonderful and insightful Don Pavoni and 12tails have both given great discussion around ADC Itemization. I Have read through all the comments am going to respond to the overall discussion.

Don Pavoni has stated that AD Itemization has lead to the blending of niches and roles destroying the identity of the more niche ADC's, Items like item 3087 have ruined the Carries that specialize in waveclear like sivir, by making every ADC able to waveclear, all while enhancing their damage output. Itemization in other roles has also caused CC heavy Carries like Ashe and Varus to suffer because of the 100% built on every support that's not a tankitem 3222 . The ADC Itemization changes have also caused Champions like Sivir who scale best off of Raw AD to suffer because they don't really have the items to build that allow their scalings to be effective. 12tails also brought up that at the moment, Sivir is built the same way as every other ADC at the moment, which is, IE/SS/LW/BT/GA/Zerkers. This is unacceptable, because if one build is the same build on every ADC except a few (Trinity force and ghostblade on Lucian and Kogmaw being the 2 biggest) this shows that Itemization is flawed at it's very core and doesn't properly allow for niche ADCs that fill unique roles because every ADC can purchase items that allow them to do those roles.

My opinion would be to do the Dota Crit style. What I mean by this is that Riot Reworks item 3031 so that it is the ONLY crit based Item in the game granting it's still very high 25% crit chance, and 250% crit damage, but also rework it so that it builds fromitem 3122 and item 1038 . and that Critical chance doesn't Stack. Now, we can emphasize Unique build paths by adding in unique AS items, or allow those ADC's that benefit from Raw AD from benefiting because they're abilities fill in for the 25% crit chance that other ADC's build.

Granted This may not be the best way to go, but in my opinion it is the most solid way to actually change how ADC's Function in terms of best build. By making it so that IE is the only source of Crit in the game outside of Passive's this means that Champs like Ezreal, Kog, and Sivir who work best from AS or Raw AD can benefit greatly from the changes to itemization.

While this would require a massive overhaul of Crit/AS items, those items are simply too efficient at enhancing damage, that ADCs that build crit will always outshine ADCs that require raw AD over anything else.

31 Comments

YouLostMe3 votes

Whether or not you buff sivir's waveclear, she is still competing with Lucian and Varus for AoE damage pushing. Emphasizing that role doesn't serve her well. Sivir currently seems best serviced by a few things:

  • "Nope"-ing enemy spells with your shield.
  • Inescapable ricochet damage
  • Pro boomerang damage

With those in mind, I think Sivir would be best serviced by a stronger passive and getting her passive to proc when she nopes an enemy spell. And this is of course is she actually needs a buff, which I don't think is necessary -- she's not played competitively because team coordination provides enough defensive power that marksmen are better off with 3 aggressive spells, but in SoloQ she's still fine with a 50% winrate.

12tales3 votes

Sivir was a very powerful ADC alongside Lucian just over half a year ago. Unfortunately, it turned out that being the pushing queen - as she was back then - leads to horribly boring and non interactive gameplay where Sivir gets 12 CS a minute and her enemy plays PvE under turret for 15 minutes (if you enjoy laning against Tristana now, you would have loved Sivir).

Reverting the nerfs (and buffing her further, despite the fact that she was a competitive ADC without those buffs) would definitely make her powerful, but it wouldn't really make bot lane any more fun to play. That's why she was given those nerfs in the first place.

Now, to me, Sivir's most compelling identity has always been her incredibly high theoretical damage output in teamfights, and her synergy with tanks. She's a champion that relies on incredibly precise positioning, but has some of the highest rewards of any ADC if you can use her to her fullest potential, or support a teammate in their efforts to protect you. So, rather than see her (relatively boring) 1v1 and 2v2 laning buffed, I would prefer to see her supportive and teamfight oriented abilities heightened. The most recent buff to On The Hunt is the sort of thing I'm thinking of.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

This is great feedback, and I'm interested to hear what you have to say, Perhaps increasing her potential for plays with spell shield by increasing it's rewards? Buffing her MS from her passive or Ult? What do you think would make Sivir the QUEEN of AoE teamfights? Because right now, she'll lose out to Lucian or Corki for AoE teamfight.

cshakes1 votes

Maybe add an extra bounce onto Ricochet? It'd increase her AoE damage output and improve her pushing, but probably not make her too oppressive.

12tales1 votes

Off the top of my head, I like the idea of buffing her passive, either by increasing the duration, letting it stack (potentially with nerfs to the values at one stack), or buffing the power. Alternatively, giving her W synergy with multiplicative stats could allow her to scale much more effectively into mid and late game teamfights.

For example - if Ricochet lasted for a specific duration, rather than for three auto attacks, it would allow Sivir's damage output to scale with attack speed (as well as her teammate's abilities to peel for her as she turrets). Alternatively, allowing the Ricochet hits to proc on hit effects or critically strike would let her scale much more effectively with gold and power spike harder at items like IE and BotRK. There's also a precedent for one or both of those effects accompanying AoE auto attacks in Jinx and Twitch.

The changes to Ricochet would likely require accompanying nerfs to other parts of her kit, lest she become too powerful, but they would ultimately allow her to assume the identity of 'positional mid-late game teamfighting carry' much more effectively than she currently can. They'd also give her a distinct niche from other hyper carries like Tristana and Twitch, who also excel as duelists, because Sivir would be reliant on hitting multiple enemies to get really impressive damage output. She'd similarly be kept separate from Kog'Maw, because she'd be much more reliant on getting within close range of her enemies, and in turn could be much more mobile.

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

These are excellent Ideas and I'll make a note of them in the OP.

Sire Hippington2 votes

While i wouldn't mind a buff to the passive, i realy don'T like the ideas for W. Sivir always was one of the few adc that worked well with the legolas path, going for straight ad+arpen rather than as+crit. And since her first rework, she also was more of a hit and run champ rather than a constand AAing champ Ur ideas would change that and with that a corepart of her identity for me. The only on-hit items in question would be BotrK and SS, makeing her go for as rather than ad which doesn'T fit her at all. Fixed duration instead of number off attacks would also lead to more as-focused builts, and crit would make her rather similar to Jinx and her aoe-AA-crits while also forcing her to the standart adc built rather than a more unique one.

If sivir needs buffs on her damage, she should rather get more as during W(makeing her ad-scaling better) or W should gain a higher ad-ratio on later ranks, maybe 5% more for each point in ult to not impact her already opressing harass+waveclear in lane all that much.

12tales1 votes

The only on-hit items in question would be BotrK and SS, makeing her go for as rather than ad which doesn'T fit her at all.

Or potentially Muramana, given her steep mana costs and solid AD scaling.

Also, BotRK very much supports her current playstyle - you're able to get off your three auto attacks with W more quickly than usual, use the active for additional burst damage, and then disengage smoothly with the speedboost from the item and your passive. Where an item like PD basically scales linearly with how long you spend in combat, items like Statikk Shiv and BotRK give you bursts of power - perfect to supplement an ADC like Sivir who wants to hit and run, as you say.

Sivir always was one of the few adc that worked well with the legolas path, going for straight ad+arpen rather than as+crit.

Unfortunately, by far the best AD item at the moment is Inifnity Edge. Sivir is currently forced to itemize for Crit, even tho she can't make as much use of it as other ADCs - if you look at probuilds, her itemization is incredibly standard. Statikk Shiv, IE, LW, and BT - same as nearly every other ADC. The changes I propose wouldn't change her build paths or playstyle, they'd simply allow her to adapt to the ecology that's been changing around her (and which has arguably left her in the dust).

Sire Hippington2 votes

Or potentially Muramana, given her steep mana costs and solid AD scaling.

if u figth near minions, muramana would drain ur mana faster than swains and anivias ult together A single W on a champion near a minionwave would cost 21% of ur current mana, performing all 3 hits would cost over 50% of ur manapool

Also, BotRK very much supports her current playstyle - you're able to get off your three auto attacks with W more quickly than usual, use the active for additional burst damage, and then disengage smoothly with the speedboost from the item and your passive.

If BotrK, an item meant as sustained dps source vs tanky tarets, suplements a bursty hit and run play better than a raw ad or arpen+cdr item, then either the ad-ratios of that champ are to low or the ad-items are underpowered or BotrK is overpowered(probably a mixture of the later two).

items like Statikk Shiv and BotRK give you bursts of power - perfect to supplement an ADC like Sivir who wants to hit and run, as you say.

A burst of power on longer cd suites all-in champs like Graves or Lucian rather than a kite and poke champ like sivir. Trinity + BT should be the superior choice for a champ with sivirs kit, and was befor the IE/BT changes. If trinity doesn'T supplement her playstyle more than SS, and even more if Essence Reaver doesn'T do her more good than BotrK. them it's a sign that item-balance is a bit off these days.

Unfortunately, by far the best AD item at the moment is Inifnity Edge. Sivir is currently forced to itemize for Crit, even tho she can't make as much use of it as other ADCs

This is the core Problem that needs to get adressed: Sivir beeing forced into the standart adc-path even though she doesn'T synergies with it as well as most carrys.

If we want to 'Creating Unique ADC's '(the titel of this discussion), we should rather help non stnadart-AA carrys(ad-casters) to work with no standart AA-builts. Reworking her kit to work better with the generic adc-built would take away from her uniqueness and lead to more uniform carrys overall, which is exactly the opossite of which should be done. If the carrys get more similar, the chances that one is ouclassed by another filling a similar niche would get much higher.

As i stated in my main post for this discussion, the first step towards more unique adcs is fixing the items.

12tales1 votes

As i stated in my main post for this discussion, the first step towards more unique adcs is fixing the items.

I don't disagree, but in the context of the current itemization options, I believe that my changes would allow Sivir to better function in her intended niche. She's already proven that she can be a top tier pick in the proper ecosystem with the same kit she has today.

Still, if Sivir is playing with a hit and run, teamfight oriented style that no other ADC can use - does it really matter what she's building to do that? The input-output remains the same, regardless. If IE->Ghostblade can be made to supplement Sivir's playstyle, why is that worse than BT->LW supplementing her playstyle?

Sire Hippington2 votes

A cirt or as built would take away from her signature skill - Boomerang Blade. also, ghostblade is again more an all-in type off item with that aktive, which doesn't deliver her playstyle to well. IE+SS would worke for hit and run, and with crit+onhit W also for aoe in clashes, but it also would buff the singletarget compared to ad-heavy builts which would mean sivir needs to suffer power in generall in order to stay balanced, while also her Q would cease to be her bread and butter skill as the focuse would shift to the low counterplay W-bounces. She would get much closer to jinx haveing an ocationally longrange poke and the main focus on AAs that can crit on aoe. And it would also only help sivir. ofc we could rework all adc in a way that makes them use the current adc-path, but that would lead to higher similaritys between them.

The only way to preserver higher variation for ad-carrys in generall is balancing out the items, as it is not only Sivir that suffers from the current item-meta.

12tales1 votes

also, ghostblade is again more an all-in type off item with that aktive, which doesn't deliver her playstyle to well.

Ghostblade offers literally every multiplicative stat for caster ADCs - AD, CDR and Armor Pen. If a champion that wants to trade in short bursts and chunk enemies from long range can't use Ghostblade, who can?

Sivir builds IE+SS right now, and the changes I'm describing would do nothing to affect her single target power - I'm explicitly trying to preserve her identity as an AoE centric Caster ADC by tying her scaling with Crit to Ricochet, and not touching her 1v1 damage output at all.

IE+SS would worke for hit and run, and with crit+onhit W also for aoe in clashes, but it also would buff the singletarget compared to ad-heavy builts which would mean sivir needs to suffer power in generall in order to stay balanced, while also her Q would cease to be her bread and butter skill as the focuse would shift to the low counterplay W-bounces.

Again - Sivir builds IE+SS/Ghostblade every game. My changes wouldn't buff singletarget buiilds, because your definition of singletarget encompasses literally every viable build path that she has at the moment.

Also, I'd like to point out that the build path I envision (Infinity Edge into Ghostblade) is a Legolas build - tons of flat AD, Armor Penetration, and CDR, with no attack speed. A Sivir with 110 bonus AD, 20 armor penetration and 10% CDR is not going to have insignificant Boomerang Blades.

And it would also only help sivir. ofc we could rework all adc in a way that makes them use the current adc-path, but that would lead to higher similaritys between them.

League of Legends isn't trying to become a solved game. As the ecosystem changes, champions require attention to keep them relevant - as the pool of champions shift, new problems to be dealt with arise, and new opportunities to bring underused champions to the limelight present themselves. I'm not suggesting that this should be Sivir for ever and always, but rather that in the game of League of Legends as it exists today, this Sivir would be most similar to the current one in playstyle while remaining powerful in interactive ways.

Sire Hippington2 votes

again, ur suggestions do work out in the context of the current item-meta, but the question here is if it it is a good idea to adjust champions to the current item meta, or if it is better to toake a closer look on the item-meta itself.

At the current state, most people play sivir with a SS rush, sometimes a BortK ontop. At the current state, mopst Sivirs i see do rather poorly, and i don'T think thats a coincidence. I still play her with trinity rather than SS, and ER instead of BotrK, and i do comparable well.

And yes, yomuuns gives ad, arpen and cdr, but it also gives as and crit. If it therefor is a better choice for a champion that seeks mostly ad, arpen and cdr than a blackcleaver, which purely grants ad, arpen and cdr, then either yomuuns is to strong or BC is to weak

Same for IE+Ghostblade, if a build that inclouds tons of crit and some as is more effecktive on a ad-caster then a built that only inclouds ad, cdr and arpen, something is wrong.

Sivir builds IE+SS right now, and the changes I'm describing would do nothing to affect her single target power - I'm explicitly trying to preserve her identity as an AoE centric Caster ADC by tying her scaling with Crit to Ricochet, and not touching her 1v1 damage output at all.

If u right now go the SS/IE path, u deal far more singletarget dmage than aoe compared to the now less viable BC+LW+2xBT built did. Befor the item changes, sivir could opt for either more singletarget damge or more aoe.

ur changes would increase her aoe on W by more than 50%, thats a huge buff and would make her op, so she would get nerfed in general to compensate that, and as said befor, her current signature skill(Q) would suffer most from it . Also, u wouldn'T realy transfer her into an aoe CASTER-adc, but just an aoe-adc as the very most of her damage would come from (w)AAs

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

I replied to this conversation with my opinions in the OP.

Travistyse2 votes

I really like your suggestions for these two characters.

Silverclaw2 votes

Meanwhile, Graves's niche was ALSO filled by Lucian. Graves the the up-close-and-personal AOE+Burst Carry. Then Lucian came by with some of the best ranged ad burst around. I'd love it f Graves lost the mana cost on his dash, and the base damage on his Q was buffed or something,

The Quiche2 votes

That Sivir Q change would be kind of ridiculous. Q on a single target already does massive damage with the reduction. Landing a single Q shouldn't be the end of the enemy's laning phase. I think that maybe you could reinforce her niche by making her Q do increased damage to minions or something, make her a godlike pusher, but don't make her Q a casual decapitation move.

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

Thanks for the feedback!

Sire Hippington2 votes

The main problem curretnly is Crit>No crit Since the IE and botrk buff and BT nerf, ad-casters got outclassed by AA-focused carrys. The only exeption here is corky. But corky thrives more on basevalues rather than scalings, so he wasn'T hit to hard by the BT changes.

For utillity focused carrys like Ashe or Varus, micaels curcible destroyed them as it pretty much removes their ults(which are the main reason to pick them) from the game.

So before changeing individuall champs, some system changes should be done first, like reworking Essence reaver in a stronger item for ad-casters replacing old BT.

Also, u say sivir was the Aoe-damage + waveclear adc, and lucian took over her waveclear niche, and yet the changes u suggest for 'Creating **Unique **ADC's ' is lowering sivirs aoe-damage(her remaining unique strength) while buffing her still strongenough waveclear which she shares as strong point with lucian. Wouldn'T it help her uniqueness more to increase her aoe-damage rather than just waveclear?

I agree on changeing ashes Q in a more aktive slow that has a limited uptime but more impact compared to the current permaslow, which eventually would also allow to put a bit more damage in her kit.

Graves imo needs a small rework that turns him into a true shotgun-brawler. I never understood why graves got that huge as-buff on E, he got a shotgun, not a machine gun. So I think his E needs to loose the as-buff, and maybe gain a %bonusarmor pen instead. His Q should gain less cd and manacosts on later ranks to make it his primary overall damage source. The reason why i would lower cd instead of increasing the damag is trhat graves got already a massive all-in burst, buffing that even more would make him very opressive in kill-lanes. His E reset should also work with Q, as he now would get off way less AAs for the reset. It would also revard a closeup Q with more rest for Q as it hits 3 times. Last i would increase his base AS, as he nomore has a buff inbuilt and would prefer ad over as for the Q+R scaling, so to still have a reasonable aa-dps and better early lasthitting more as would be needed.

CrazedPorcupine3 votes

All of this is Fantastic feedback, and these suggestions are great.

Robins Tights2 votes

Ashe is fine. Don't touch her. I've been winning with her as ADC and support for the past 2 months. The only person I have problems against is Lucian

CrazedPorcupine3 votes

By no means am I saying Ashe is a bad ADC, but rather that her niche as the Queen of Kiting is outclassed by the popular ADC's. As a CC ADC, She suffers from old Skarner syndrome that an inescapable slow is no fun to play against and is rather boring. I simply sought to make her Kiting a more engaging mechanic and one that would possibly allow her to have more damage or utility added onto her kit.

Hullabaloo9072 votes

I think the big change that would help itemization is adding a faerie charm or two to Essance Reavers buildpath. I like the item already, but it would be a huge help for the champs i build it on because you wouldnt necessarily have to rush it to benefit from the mana regen.

As to Sivir, she is great right now. She has good aoe and a great ult if your team is working together.

Lneacx1 votes

I actually think that the verdict of ER is similar to the verdict of Runaan's: They're good item concepts, but the current reality of LoL's itemization and meta stop them from being viable.

My memory might be off, but I think a Red mentioned once that they wanted new Sivir to be a caster-based AD carry who would build CDR (and, I'm guessing, rely on W for AS). What I think is happening, though, is that the power of 'standard' AD itemization is so strong that alternative builds will completely gimp your damage. Thing is, if Essence Reaver actually became strong enough to compete with the Standard . . . well, then existing AD casters might go through the roof.

Basically, I think that ER and Runaan's just need to wait until proper support for their niche is created that doesn't disrupt the balance of other classes.

chavyy1421 votes

I love ashe's niche though. She's the sej of adc's, perma slows and an awesome initiator

EMOFRATPARTY1 votes

Important science is being done here! Regarding Ashe...

Next let's talk about Ashe. She's supposed to be the Queen of Kite, but now, she's kinda bad at kiting as she has no dashes, no leaps, no blinks nothing but her slows. She's outclassed in kiting potential by Tristana, Lucian, and Ezreal. However, if you simply buff her Q's slow, then she becomes overbearing when ahead because you can't ever run from her.

Change her Q to a AA reset, And amp up the slow crap tons where it lasts only a brief period of time when used with autos, but when applied with W, lasts longer

Buff her Base MS by 5-10.

This is great and all, but it doesn't solve one of the biggest problems that Ashe has -- her inability to escape anything. Buffing her MS by a small, finite number only partly resolves that. Unfortunately, I don't think you can give Ashe a legitimate escape (save for her ult) without completely reworking her.

So why not increase her MS by a percentage, or perhaps something that plays off of her kiting:

ORIGINAL PASSIVE

If Ashe has not attacked in the last 3 seconds, she gains 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 Focus stacks per second. At 100 stacks, Ashe will critically strike on her next basic attack. Thereafter, Focus stacks will reset to an amount equal to her critical strike chance.

PROPOSED PASSIVE

If Ashe has not attacked in the last 3 seconds, she gains 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 Focus stacks per second. At 100 stacks, Ashe will critically strike on her next basic attack. Upon firing a Focus shot, Ashe ignores unit collision and moves 28% faster for 1/1/1.5/1.5/2 seconds. Thereafter, Focus stacks will reset to an amount equal to her critical strike chance.

Effectively, this would add a Ghost-like effect anytime Ashe proc'd her passive and give her an escape. Now, this would also give her better pursuit but that isn't the largest issue with Ashe, largely due to her Q. The proposed changes in the original post, along with buffing her MS in a way that makes sense for her kit, would help make Ashe less of an afterthought as an ADC.

Sire Hippington2 votes

That buff to her passive would only help if ashe could built up focus infight, or if the ms/ghost would proc on every crit. otherwise u only have a speedboost on the first hit on a fight, which idealy isn't already the moment u need to disengage.

EMOFRATPARTY2 votes

Ah, that's true. Maybe there could be an alteration to the way Focus actually counts?

Sire Hippington3 votes

I personally don't see why it shouldn't simply go up in combat aswell, maybe with a slower rate than out off combat then, but the current passive is nearly useless. U can use it for a little bit of zoning in the early laneing, and a small bonus on ur first strike in a clash, not really impressive passive after all

Jiharu1 votes

If Sivir w applied on hit effects like item 3071 , I'd rush it. Sit under turret and aa minions and hit their ad "marksman" and supp.. utitlity creep with bouncing blades all day and Q once it's stacked on them.

Items like item 3071 have fallen off with the buff to item 3031 , and I can see item 3071 getting a slight tweak to it's AD to bring it inline with crit based items(with crit being good on all adc while armor pen over time is only worth it on bruisers late game)

Sire Hippington3 votes

BC is no onhiteffeckt, it applys to all physical damage, so sivirs W already spreads BC stacks and so does her Q.

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